Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.


Neither my company, nor a paid sales agent. I do know the author for whom I have great respect, Dr. Dennis Saccuzzo. He has employed interesting strategies to developing these books, which I'll briefly comment upon. He is actually a learning psychologist professor (retired), renown globally, his psychology methods textbooks translated into several languages and popularly used globally.

My opinion of the product is based upon my studies and experience with pedagogy, in particular development of learning materials. I am certainly prejudiced as a defender of the Cartesian approach to learning, and known as a detractor of the Socratic, and in particular that method when employed with the case law approach for teaching. In light of this prejudice, based upon my own Civilian experience ...

Saccuzzo employed the Schema approach that he credits Jean Piaget's writings on cognitive development. Saccuzzo, In his Schema approach, almost employs, (but stops short) concept mind mapping of the various legal regimes. If you learn pictorially, there are mind mapping, independently developed, approaches on the market that will better suit you.

Piaget is a bit controversial, and some of my education colleagues totally discount his developmental approach. Point being there are always various, and even opposing, perspectives. So what am I on about?... Let me digress:

Jean Piaget is the cognitive development guru whom leveraged Immanuel Kant's schema. Schema are tied to mindmapping and more importantly concept mapping (a more organized form of mindmapping that is more "schema" like). Schema are an important piece of the learning puzzle, as is George Miller's initial thoughts on working memory including "slots" and then "chunking". Later testing has reduced Miller's guess at the number of working memory slots from an available seven down to just 4 slots, and most recent testing has reduced those 4 slots to two sets of two slots each: http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2011/miller-memory-0623.html

The other aspect that Saccuzzo employs that I think best reflects, at least modern learners, is the George Miller slot theory about memory.

What Saccuzzo does not leverage in his Bar materials, but I think would make for an interesting approach, requires an understanding of various perspectives of memory and learning.

Onto memory (and in particular linguistics), there are several perspectives. The Structure of Magic I (and a lesser extent II) is eye opening (see below). If you find the NLP perspective intriguing, to learning because you're a good listener by example, then you'll want to explore Milton Erikson http://www.hypnosis-and-health.com/Hypnotherapy_-_An_Exploratory_Casebook_-_Milton_H._Erickson.pdf which is free online It works just as well for learning as for psychiatry.

If the memory stuff really catches you, then see the newest perspectives on electrical stimulation of (or even creation of) memory, being the optogentics research being conducted at MIT: explanation at http://blog.ted.com/2014/02/21/red-light-brain-probes-and-the-future-an-enlightening-conversation/ but original study publication at http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2013/neuroscientists-plant-false-memories-in-the-brain-0725.html Think of the movies where information is just uploaded into the brain, like Matrix. Now that would be a cool way to prepare for the Bar!

It is not the only perspective, so by example see a different approach to this type of research that focuses on the stimulation of a protein called β-actin that either is the "memory" holder or alternatively, strengthens the dendrite that holds the memory: http://cen.acs.org/articles/92/i7/Tracking-Memories-Form.html (FYI Dendrites are highway channels but recently, are now thought to actually "be" the memory. Having said that, just ten years ago, the synapse where the jump from one dendrite to another occurs was thought to be the most important aspect of memory). It's all rather complicated and confusing at this point, with competing studies and completing explanations. Basically, think "smart pills" that would stimulate memory and learning (better than coffee and red bull).

I have just in the past month suggested to a school to leverage Kaplan for its entire 1st to 3rd year Bar prep program, in contrast to an associate of mine who just with the same information, selected Barbri for his institution.

Well, I have digressed and now time to return to my actual work tonight on the OECDs newly released report on comparables for developing countries. However, I'll check back in here to hear out other perspectives on the attributes of the various products on the market.
Neither my company, nor a paid sales agent. I do know the author for whom I have great respect, Dr. Dennis Saccuzzo. He has employed interesting strategies to developing these books, which I'll briefly comment upon. He is actually a learning psychologist professor (retired), renown globally, his psychology methods textbooks translated into several languages and popularly used globally.

My opinion of the product is based upon my studies and experience with pedagogy, in particular development of learning materials. I am certainly prejudiced as a defender of the Cartesian approach to learning, and known as a detractor of the Socratic, and in particular that method when employed with the case law approach for teaching. In light of this prejudice, based upon my own Civilian experience ...

Saccuzzo employed the Schema approach that he credits Jean Piaget's writings on cognitive development. Saccuzzo, In his Schema approach, almost employs, (but stops short) concept mind mapping of the various legal regimes. If you learn pictorially, there are mind mapping, independently developed, approaches on the market that will better suit you.

Piaget is a bit controversial, and some of my education colleagues totally discount his developmental approach. Point being there are always various, and even opposing, perspectives. So what am I on about?... Let me digress:

Jean Piaget is the cognitive development guru whom leveraged Immanuel Kant's schema. Schema are tied to mindmapping and more importantly concept mapping (a more organized form of mindmapping that is more "schema" like). Schema are an important piece of the learning puzzle, as is George Miller's initial thoughts on working memory including "slots" and then "chunking". Later testing has reduced Miller's guess at the number of working memory slots from an available seven down to just 4 slots, and most recent testing has reduced those 4 slots to two sets of two slots each: http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2011/miller-memory-0623.html

The other aspect that Saccuzzo employs that I think best reflects, at least modern learners, is the George Miller slot theory about memory.

What Saccuzzo does not leverage in his Bar materials, but I think would make for an interesting approach, requires an understanding of various perspectives of memory and learning.

Onto memory (and in particular linguistics), there are several perspectives. The Structure of Magic I (and a lesser extent II) is eye opening (see below). If you find the NLP perspective intriguing, to learning because you're a good listener by example, then you'll want to explore Milton Erikson http://www.hypnosis-and-health.com/Hypnotherapy_-_An_Exploratory_Casebook_-_Milton_H._Erickson.pdf which is free online It works just as well for learning as for psychiatry.

If the memory stuff really catches you, then see the newest perspectives on electrical stimulation of (or even creation of) memory, being the optogentics research being conducted at MIT: explanation at http://blog.ted.com/2014/02/21/red-light-brain-probes-and-the-future-an-enlightening-conversation/ but original study publication at http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2013/neuroscientists-plant-false-memories-in-the-brain-0725.html Think of the movies where information is just uploaded into the brain, like Matrix. Now that would be a cool way to prepare for the Bar!

It is not the only perspective, so by example see a different approach to this type of research that focuses on the stimulation of a protein called β-actin that either is the "memory" holder or alternatively, strengthens the dendrite that holds the memory: http://cen.acs.org/articles/92/i7/Tracking-Memories-Form.html (FYI Dendrites are highway channels but recently, are now thought to actually "be" the memory. Having said that, just ten years ago, the synapse where the jump from one dendrite to another occurs was thought to be the most important aspect of memory). It's all rather complicated and confusing at this point, with competing studies and completing explanations. Basically, think "smart pills" that would stimulate memory and learning (better than coffee and red bull).

I have just in the past month suggested to a school to leverage Kaplan for its entire 1st to 3rd year Bar prep program, in contrast to an associate of mine who just with the same information, selected Barbri for his institution.

Well, I have digressed and now time to return to my actual work tonight on the OECDs newly released report on comparables for developing countries. However, I'll check back in here to hear out other perspectives on the attributes of the various products on the market.
quote
LTP
Hello -

Hope some experts out here can help me with some guidance.

I am permanent resident (Green Card holder) in USA. Living is Seattle area. I did my 5 year LLB & 2 year LLM from India. I was a practicing lawyer there. Now I am planning to do 9 month LLM course in UW School of law.

(1) I will have to invest 20-30K USD for this study. I have a 2 year old kid and the daycare expenses for the kid I have to meet. My plan is to study US law, get eligibility to take BAR exams in most of the states, take BAR exam for WA, look for a legal job in Seattle area.

What is your expert opinion on my plan? What are the negative/positive aspects?

(2) Do you have a better option for me?

Please comment. Thank You!
Hello -

Hope some experts out here can help me with some guidance.

I am permanent resident (Green Card holder) in USA. Living is Seattle area. I did my 5 year LLB & 2 year LLM from India. I was a practicing lawyer there. Now I am planning to do 9 month LLM course in UW School of law.

(1) I will have to invest 20-30K USD for this study. I have a 2 year old kid and the daycare expenses for the kid I have to meet. My plan is to study US law, get eligibility to take BAR exams in most of the states, take BAR exam for WA, look for a legal job in Seattle area.

What is your expert opinion on my plan? What are the negative/positive aspects?

(2) Do you have a better option for me?

Please comment. Thank You!
quote
braydenp
In the near future I will be forced to make one of the most important decisions in my life: whether to pursue a legal career in the USA or in my home town. After considering the necessary steps to achieve one or the other I have designed a path for each. The local one is obviously easy, but the other one drives to my dream. An LLM is off the table, as not only you will not obtain the same legal knowledge as in a JD, you will also not train the skills an attorney requires (at least, you will not train them enough) and you won't be able to "network" with future attorneys.

As taking a Juris Doctor is utterly a synonym for risk, both financially and from the admission viewpoint, I would like to know how foreign lawyers do in the US, whether they success or not and how much interest law firms have in them - basically I would like to know if a foreign attorney duly educated will have the same opportunities an american lawyer would have -.

Thank you in advance.
In the near future I will be forced to make one of the most important decisions in my life: whether to pursue a legal career in the USA or in my home town. After considering the necessary steps to achieve one or the other I have designed a path for each. The local one is obviously easy, but the other one drives to my dream. An LLM is off the table, as not only you will not obtain the same legal knowledge as in a JD, you will also not train the skills an attorney requires (at least, you will not train them enough) and you won't be able to "network" with future attorneys.

As taking a Juris Doctor is utterly a synonym for risk, both financially and from the admission viewpoint, I would like to know how foreign lawyers do in the US, whether they success or not and how much interest law firms have in them - basically I would like to know if a foreign attorney duly educated will have the same opportunities an american lawyer would have -.

Thank you in advance.
quote
aspireLLM
Hi LTP

With regard to your query-

To qualify as a Lawyer in Baltimore,Maryland or any area you need the bar exam.You can apply for tuition waiver;as you already have green card; your tuition will be cheaper and options will be more compared to an attorney from India.

If the cost is too high and if you are not very rigid in you job preference;you can apply for paralegal,legal secretary or other positions.To equip yourself in this regard you can acquire a paralegal certification from a local university.

If you are not very strict in your preference for law then you can do MBA(which is a shorter process and no federal exam) because in this way:

1)You need to study for 2 years but can get waiver for most subjects as you have advance law degree even if it is a foreign degree;
2)You qualify for OPT and you can network during that time as you already have green card so transition to a job is simpler.

Note-when you are in US and have any kind of work experience;you can ask for a GMAT waiver from the university and it will be considered.

If giving the bar is your only preference then you can choose programs that are cheaper or not more than 25000$ with some specialization.

Hope this helps
Hi LTP

With regard to your query-

To qualify as a Lawyer in Baltimore,Maryland or any area you need the bar exam.You can apply for tuition waiver;as you already have green card; your tuition will be cheaper and options will be more compared to an attorney from India.

If the cost is too high and if you are not very rigid in you job preference;you can apply for paralegal,legal secretary or other positions.To equip yourself in this regard you can acquire a paralegal certification from a local university.

If you are not very strict in your preference for law then you can do MBA(which is a shorter process and no federal exam) because in this way:

1)You need to study for 2 years but can get waiver for most subjects as you have advance law degree even if it is a foreign degree;
2)You qualify for OPT and you can network during that time as you already have green card so transition to a job is simpler.

Note-when you are in US and have any kind of work experience;you can ask for a GMAT waiver from the university and it will be considered.

If giving the bar is your only preference then you can choose programs that are cheaper or not more than 25000$ with some specialization.

Hope this helps

quote
gemka
Hola soy abogada peruana igual que tu y vivo en CA escríbeme a gemka24@hotmail.com. Gracias
Hola soy abogada peruana igual que tu y vivo en CA escríbeme a gemka24@hotmail.com. Gracias
quote
gemka
I'm Peruvian lawyer with jurisdiction in my country and I want to take the bar exam. Someone cab tell what is the best way to be prepared for this exam. Thanks.
I'm Peruvian lawyer with jurisdiction in my country and I want to take the bar exam. Someone cab tell what is the best way to be prepared for this exam. Thanks.
quote
LTP
Thank You for the guidance

Hi LTP

With regard to your query-

To qualify as a Lawyer in Baltimore,Maryland or any area you need the bar exam.You can apply for tuition waiver;as you already have green card; your tuition will be cheaper and options will be more compared to an attorney from India.

If the cost is too high and if you are not very rigid in you job preference;you can apply for paralegal,legal secretary or other positions.To equip yourself in this regard you can acquire a paralegal certification from a local university.

If you are not very strict in your preference for law then you can do MBA(which is a shorter process and no federal exam) because in this way:

1)You need to study for 2 years but can get waiver for most subjects as you have advance law degree even if it is a foreign degree;
2)You qualify for OPT and you can network during that time as you already have green card so transition to a job is simpler.

Note-when you are in US and have any kind of work experience;you can ask for a GMAT waiver from the university and it will be considered.

If giving the bar is your only preference then you can choose programs that are cheaper or not more than 25000$ with some specialization.

Hope this helps

Thank You for the guidance

<blockquote>Hi LTP

With regard to your query-

To qualify as a Lawyer in Baltimore,Maryland or any area you need the bar exam.You can apply for tuition waiver;as you already have green card; your tuition will be cheaper and options will be more compared to an attorney from India.

If the cost is too high and if you are not very rigid in you job preference;you can apply for paralegal,legal secretary or other positions.To equip yourself in this regard you can acquire a paralegal certification from a local university.

If you are not very strict in your preference for law then you can do MBA(which is a shorter process and no federal exam) because in this way:

1)You need to study for 2 years but can get waiver for most subjects as you have advance law degree even if it is a foreign degree;
2)You qualify for OPT and you can network during that time as you already have green card so transition to a job is simpler.

Note-when you are in US and have any kind of work experience;you can ask for a GMAT waiver from the university and it will be considered.

If giving the bar is your only preference then you can choose programs that are cheaper or not more than 25000$ with some specialization.

Hope this helps

</blockquote>
quote
Anyone here taking the July 2016 New York bar exam?
Anyone here taking the July 2016 New York bar exam?
quote
mya1818
Does anyone know a lawyer that graduated in Europe and became a lawyer in the US? I need advice.
Does anyone know a lawyer that graduated in Europe and became a lawyer in the US? I need advice.
quote
actarus
Hi, can anyone tell me which are the states where you can apply for the bar exam without a JD or LLM and how easy is the application process? I heard that i order to be admitted for the bar exam they will run in intensive check on your foreign credentials?
Thanks
Hi, can anyone tell me which are the states where you can apply for the bar exam without a JD or LLM and how easy is the application process? I heard that i order to be admitted for the bar exam they will run in intensive check on your foreign credentials?
Thanks
quote
a2
actarus, it depends on what your home jurisdiction is. It is generally easier to be eligible to sit for the bar exam if you're educated in a common law jurisdiction.

I know that in California you can be eligible to sit for the bar if you are admitted to a bar in another country, without having a LLM or JD. To my knowledge that is the only state where this is possible if you're from a civil law country like I am, but there might be other options if you're from a common law country.

But there are all sorts of other criteria, and yes they do check your credentials and your background thoroughly. Good luck
actarus, it depends on what your home jurisdiction is. It is generally easier to be eligible to sit for the bar exam if you're educated in a common law jurisdiction.

I know that in California you can be eligible to sit for the bar if you are admitted to a bar in another country, without having a LLM or JD. To my knowledge that is the only state where this is possible if you're from a civil law country like I am, but there might be other options if you're from a common law country.

But there are all sorts of other criteria, and yes they do check your credentials and your background thoroughly. Good luck
quote
actarus
Hi,
I have a question. How can you be licensed for 5 years? Is it referring to be licensed abroad or in the US? In other words how can you work without passing the bar exam?
Hi,
I have a question. How can you be licensed for 5 years? Is it referring to be licensed abroad or in the US? In other words how can you work without passing the bar exam?
quote
spine
Good evening everyone I am a Spanish lawyer and I would like to know whether any foreign lawyer was able to enroll in Florida without getting an us degree
Thanks
Kind regards
Good evening everyone I am a Spanish lawyer and I would like to know whether any foreign lawyer was able to enroll in Florida without getting an us degree
Thanks
Kind regards
quote
necesitas estar colegiado en spain, eso es todo....
necesitas estar colegiado en spain, eso es todo....
quote
pedro8a7
I am US citizen with a Law Degree in Mexico interested in Texas Bar. I wanted to know if I eligible in Texas to sit for Bar exam? I have completed my LLM from Washington University in St Louis. (Online)
I am US citizen with a Law Degree in Mexico interested in Texas Bar. I wanted to know if I eligible in Texas to sit for Bar exam? I have completed my LLM from Washington University in St Louis. (Online)
quote
Howdy from Texas A&M Pedro!

The safest route for you is to contact the Bar examiner itself and have your transcripts looked at before the lengthy application process. In principle, you'll read that in the Texas Bar regulations, a foreign law degree graduate with a US ABA approved LLM may become eligible to sit for the Texas Bar. However, Texas was in the process of considering the New York requirement that such LLM degree be in residence in the USA, and thus, that online course credit could not apply to meet the eligibility requirement. The question is if that New York standard was adopted, and to what degree. The only safe answer that you may secure if directly from the Bar.
Howdy from Texas A&M Pedro!

The safest route for you is to contact the Bar examiner itself and have your transcripts looked at before the lengthy application process. In principle, you'll read that in the Texas Bar regulations, a foreign law degree graduate with a US ABA approved LLM may become eligible to sit for the Texas Bar. However, Texas was in the process of considering the New York requirement that such LLM degree be in residence in the USA, and thus, that online course credit could not apply to meet the eligibility requirement. The question is if that New York standard was adopted, and to what degree. The only safe answer that you may secure if directly from the Bar.
quote
Hi Everyone,

I'm a US citizen currently living in NYC having a Law degree from the UK - LLB.
I hope you guys can help me with few questions i have:

1.What will be my next step in order to practice Law in NY ?
2. Is it mandatory to get a LLM from accredit ABA school to take the bar exam ?
3. I've heard you can take directly the bar exam in CA is that true?
4. Once you pass the exam in CA - you can practice only in CA?
5. Do you need to be a CA resident in order to do that?

Please Comment & Thank you for taking the time to do so !

[Edited by MaorPeretz on Dec 15, 2016]

Hi Everyone,

I'm a US citizen currently living in NYC having a Law degree from the UK - LLB.
I hope you guys can help me with few questions i have:

1.What will be my next step in order to practice Law in NY ?
2. Is it mandatory to get a LLM from accredit ABA school to take the bar exam ?
3. I've heard you can take directly the bar exam in CA is that true?
4. Once you pass the exam in CA - you can practice only in CA?
5. Do you need to be a CA resident in order to do that?

Please Comment & Thank you for taking the time to do so !
quote
Poli
Hi Everyone,

I'm a US citizen currently living in NYC for the past 10 years with a Law degree from the UK- LLB.
I hope you guys can help me with few questions i have:

1.What will be my next step in order to practice Law in NY ?
2. Is it mandatory to get a LLM from accredit ABA school to take the bar exam ?
3. I've heard you can take directly the bar exam in CA is that true?
4. Once you pass the exam in CA - you can practice only in CA?
5. Do you need to be a CA resident in order to do that?

Please Comment & Thank you for taking the time to do so !

give it a google, but I believe if you are a qualified lawyer from a common wealth country (UK/AUS) you can sit for the bar in NY without an LL.M
[quote]Hi Everyone,

I'm a US citizen currently living in NYC for the past 10 years with a Law degree from the UK- LLB.
I hope you guys can help me with few questions i have:

1.What will be my next step in order to practice Law in NY ?
2. Is it mandatory to get a LLM from accredit ABA school to take the bar exam ?
3. I've heard you can take directly the bar exam in CA is that true?
4. Once you pass the exam in CA - you can practice only in CA?
5. Do you need to be a CA resident in order to do that?

Please Comment & Thank you for taking the time to do so !
[/quote]
give it a google, but I believe if you are a qualified lawyer from a common wealth country (UK/AUS) you can sit for the bar in NY without an LL.M
quote
Please be advised, if you have a 3 year LLB from an English (common law) jurisdiciton ie. Canada, UK, Australia, NewZealand, you will qualify to sit the NY Bar WITHOUT the need for a US LLM.


Is this true? What's your basis?
[quote]Please be advised, if you have a 3 year LLB from an English (common law) jurisdiciton ie. Canada, UK, Australia, NewZealand, you will qualify to sit the NY Bar WITHOUT the need for a US LLM. [/quote]

Is this true? What's your basis?
quote
Hello everyone,

I'm an attorney in Brazil since december/2015, but I never practiced law there, because I came to California in February/2016.

Can i still take the BAR when I did not practice law in my home country?

Thanks in advance!
Hello everyone,

I'm an attorney in Brazil since december/2015, but I never practiced law there, because I came to California in February/2016.

Can i still take the BAR when I did not practice law in my home country?

Thanks in advance!
quote

Reply to Post

Other Related Content

How Many Big Law Associates and Partners Have an LL.M.?

Article Jun 04, 2015

LLM GUIDE surveys over 20,000 Big Law employees to find out how many have LL.Ms. and where they work