Does NYU/Columbia = Job or No Job?


newzeum

Are we entering Great Depression: Part II?

Will NYU/Columbia get you a job afterwards? I've heard that law firms are cutting back on hiring LLMs cause they need work visas.

Are we entering Great Depression: Part II?

Will NYU/Columbia get you a job afterwards? I've heard that law firms are cutting back on hiring LLMs cause they need work visas.
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newzeum

This isn't your typical recession, so I am thinking that doing an LLM now is a bad idea. Any thoughts?

This isn't your typical recession, so I am thinking that doing an LLM now is a bad idea. Any thoughts?
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fidu992

Probably not in this economy. US law firms are firing associates like the plague. An LLM from NYU or Columbia won't guarantee you much in this financial crisis, except $$$$$ of student loans.

If possible, it's probably better to defer for two to three years There are no good signs out there for the economy and things will probably get much worse before they get better. THis is serious stuff. Only our grandparents who lived during the great depression have any idea about how tough things will be in the next few years.

Probably not in this economy. US law firms are firing associates like the plague. An LLM from NYU or Columbia won't guarantee you much in this financial crisis, except $$$$$ of student loans.

If possible, it's probably better to defer for two to three years There are no good signs out there for the economy and things will probably get much worse before they get better. THis is serious stuff. Only our grandparents who lived during the great depression have any idea about how tough things will be in the next few years.
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newyorka

yeah, i live in new york and the job market is AWFUL! lawyers are getting pushed out the door every day, either blatantly or through ''performance reviews''...

i've seen countless llms from top schools think that they can land a job in the us, but it's more of the exception than the rule.

just too many hurdles for llms - visa issues, english skills, no jd, worst job market in 70 yrs, etc.

doing an llm might be okay in a down market if the market turns back during the llm, but that's not happening any time soon... there won't be any light at the end of the tunnel for a couple years...

save your cash and hide it under your bed

yeah, i live in new york and the job market is AWFUL! lawyers are getting pushed out the door every day, either blatantly or through ''performance reviews''...

i've seen countless llms from top schools think that they can land a job in the us, but it's more of the exception than the rule.

just too many hurdles for llms - visa issues, english skills, no jd, worst job market in 70 yrs, etc.

doing an llm might be okay in a down market if the market turns back during the llm, but that's not happening any time soon... there won't be any light at the end of the tunnel for a couple years...

save your cash and hide it under your bed
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sergiom

I don't know about domestic applicants; however, I hears that for intarnational LLM students this was the worst year. Almost nobody get a job at CLS and NYU job fairs last January.

I think that it doesn't matter which law school did you do your LLM, nowadays is almost impossible to get a job in USA. Maybe study at CLS or NYU will give you an adventage, but it will be very difficult as well.

The job market really sucks!!

I don't know about domestic applicants; however, I hears that for intarnational LLM students this was the worst year. Almost nobody get a job at CLS and NYU job fairs last January.

I think that it doesn't matter which law school did you do your LLM, nowadays is almost impossible to get a job in USA. Maybe study at CLS or NYU will give you an adventage, but it will be very difficult as well.

The job market really sucks!!
quote

I think an LL.M. is always a good qualification. However, an LL.M. in New York without any scholarship will cost at least USD 70,000. In most cases, people spend much more money.

So, if you don't have a scholarship, tuition waiver, private money etc., then it will probably be recommendable to do a cheaper LL.M., e.g. in the UK or accept an offer from a lower ranked law school with a tuition waiver.

Personally, I think that it will be extremely difficult to land a job after the LL.M. in the States. The big law firms are in troubles because they mainly made money with transactions. This business is over now... at least for the next years. Smaller law firms, however, specialised in litigation etc. will have much work, but these firms normally do not hire foreign lawyers. So, be careful and make sure that you are able to pay back the loan even if you do not get a job in the US.

I think an LL.M. is always a good qualification. However, an LL.M. in New York without any scholarship will cost at least USD 70,000. In most cases, people spend much more money.

So, if you don't have a scholarship, tuition waiver, private money etc., then it will probably be recommendable to do a cheaper LL.M., e.g. in the UK or accept an offer from a lower ranked law school with a tuition waiver.

Personally, I think that it will be extremely difficult to land a job after the LL.M. in the States. The big law firms are in troubles because they mainly made money with transactions. This business is over now... at least for the next years. Smaller law firms, however, specialised in litigation etc. will have much work, but these firms normally do not hire foreign lawyers. So, be careful and make sure that you are able to pay back the loan even if you do not get a job in the US.
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aussie234

I have a friend at Columbia and she is freaking out because she still has no job or internship. New York is one of the most expensive cities in the world and she naively thought that she could land a job to pay back her loan. But that prospect seems to be dwindling by the day.

It's scary and sad, but she could end up defaulting on her loan if she can't find a job. Like so many people at Columbia, she had fantastic grades coming in, but I guess these types of people are a dime a dozen in New York.

I have a friend at Columbia and she is freaking out because she still has no job or internship. New York is one of the most expensive cities in the world and she naively thought that she could land a job to pay back her loan. But that prospect seems to be dwindling by the day.

It's scary and sad, but she could end up defaulting on her loan if she can't find a job. Like so many people at Columbia, she had fantastic grades coming in, but I guess these types of people are a dime a dozen in New York.
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aussie234

I've heard that US law firms don't like international LLMs since they oftentimes have poor English skills (written and spoken), even though their TOEFL score is high.

In other international cities, this is okay, but not in New York, since most clients speak perfect English and won't tolerate anything less than native speakers.

I've heard that US law firms don't like international LLMs since they oftentimes have poor English skills (written and spoken), even though their TOEFL score is high.

In other international cities, this is okay, but not in New York, since most clients speak perfect English and won't tolerate anything less than native speakers.
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fc

Honestly, I don't think you should do a LLM in US if your only desire is working in US. I wanna do it because I need to understand common law, the legal structure in US, and some aspects of corporate and international law regarding this country. I need it to better advise my clients in international deals. If you are looking (only) to work in US, think twice.

Honestly, I don't think you should do a LLM in US if your only desire is working in US. I wanna do it because I need to understand common law, the legal structure in US, and some aspects of corporate and international law regarding this country. I need it to better advise my clients in international deals. If you are looking (only) to work in US, think twice.
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Gab2009

Honestly, I don't think you should do a LLM in US if your only desire is working in US. I wanna do it because I need to understand common law, the legal structure in US, and some aspects of corporate and international law regarding this country. I need it to better advise my clients in international deals. If you are looking (only) to work in US, think twice.


Couldn,t agree more!
And in addition, I truely believe that if one wants to stay in U.S for good, he or she must do a JD and not an LLM, since JD will allow you to work as lawyer in all US states and you will not be at the "boards of system". If I want to stay there,I would rather prefer to be a whole lawyer!
kisses,

<blockquote>Honestly, I don't think you should do a LLM in US if your only desire is working in US. I wanna do it because I need to understand common law, the legal structure in US, and some aspects of corporate and international law regarding this country. I need it to better advise my clients in international deals. If you are looking (only) to work in US, think twice.</blockquote>

Couldn,t agree more!
And in addition, I truely believe that if one wants to stay in U.S for good, he or she must do a JD and not an LLM, since JD will allow you to work as lawyer in all US states and you will not be at the "boards of system". If I want to stay there,I would rather prefer to be a whole lawyer!
kisses,
quote
leiden76

I don't thinl doing an LLM in the US is a very good idea for Europeans right now since our currency is so weak compared to the dollar!!!!!
Studying in the UK makes much more sense because it is closer and more relevant economically to what goes on in the continent!!!!!

And besides, getting a job in Europe is pretty darn difficult itself!!!!! Why waste money on a degree when we could be looking for jobs!!!!

I don't thinl doing an LLM in the US is a very good idea for Europeans right now since our currency is so weak compared to the dollar!!!!!
Studying in the UK makes much more sense because it is closer and more relevant economically to what goes on in the continent!!!!!

And besides, getting a job in Europe is pretty darn difficult itself!!!!! Why waste money on a degree when we could be looking for jobs!!!!
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leiden76

Did you know that only 35% of foreigners pass the NY Bar Exam?

If that's the case, then why got a US LLM if passing the Bar Exam is so tough.

I doubt anyone will be impressed with an LLM if you failed the bar exam. Please help!!!!! I'm scared about how expensive the LLM is, especially if passing the bar is so impossible.

Did you know that only 35% of foreigners pass the NY Bar Exam?

If that's the case, then why got a US LLM if passing the Bar Exam is so tough.

I doubt anyone will be impressed with an LLM if you failed the bar exam. Please help!!!!! I'm scared about how expensive the LLM is, especially if passing the bar is so impossible.
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leiden76

Is it true that the reason why llm programmes don't release employment statistics (like jds) is because llms have such bad job placement?

I've heard from several attorneys that an LLM is a waste of time. It takes one year off the partnership track and doesn't add anything, except some extra cash for the law school to pocket.

In fact, some people are suspicious of LLMs because many people do an LLM because they can't find a job or not on track to become partner (i.e. about to get fired).

Is it true that the reason why llm programmes don't release employment statistics (like jds) is because llms have such bad job placement?

I've heard from several attorneys that an LLM is a waste of time. It takes one year off the partnership track and doesn't add anything, except some extra cash for the law school to pocket.

In fact, some people are suspicious of LLMs because many people do an LLM because they can't find a job or not on track to become partner (i.e. about to get fired).
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newbie

I've been reading these posts and think that people should calm down a bit with all this pessimism! Firstly, if your motivation for doing an LL.M is purely to get a job in the US then well a JD might be a better idea. However, if you are truly interested in exploring legal issues in a particular area to an advanced level then its a no-brainer.

Yes, the US LL.M is expensive but no more expensive than previous years and if you couldn't afford to do it then there's no sense in spending $$ you don't have! Personally, I've been deferring my LL.M for a number of years now and have finally decided to do it irrespective of the economic climate - why? Because its something I've wanted to do for a number of years and if I don't do it now, I'll never do it.

So to all those doubting/worrying/panicking - if you TRULY want to do an LL.M then you should...its as simple as that! If you have to think about it then maybe its not the right thing for you to do now...

I've been reading these posts and think that people should calm down a bit with all this pessimism! Firstly, if your motivation for doing an LL.M is purely to get a job in the US then well a JD might be a better idea. However, if you are truly interested in exploring legal issues in a particular area to an advanced level then its a no-brainer.

Yes, the US LL.M is expensive but no more expensive than previous years and if you couldn't afford to do it then there's no sense in spending $$ you don't have! Personally, I've been deferring my LL.M for a number of years now and have finally decided to do it irrespective of the economic climate - why? Because its something I've wanted to do for a number of years and if I don't do it now, I'll never do it.

So to all those doubting/worrying/panicking - if you TRULY want to do an LL.M then you should...its as simple as that! If you have to think about it then maybe its not the right thing for you to do now...
quote
fajats

I've been reading these posts and think that people should calm down a bit with all this pessimism! Firstly, if your motivation for doing an LL.M is purely to get a job in the US then well a JD might be a better idea. However, if you are truly interested in exploring legal issues in a particular area to an advanced level then its a no-brainer.

Yes, the US LL.M is expensive but no more expensive than previous years and if you couldn't afford to do it then there's no sense in spending $$ you don't have! Personally, I've been deferring my LL.M for a number of years now and have finally decided to do it irrespective of the economic climate - why? Because its something I've wanted to do for a number of years and if I don't do it now, I'll never do it.

So to all those doubting/worrying/panicking - if you TRULY want to do an LL.M then you should...its as simple as that! If you have to think about it then maybe its not the right thing for you to do now...


I totally agree,

YES there are serious economic issues all over the globe. YES, don't spend money you don't have, specially now because jobs are the most precious (my precious) asset you can have. NO, LLM's are not a waste of time, in fact, I heard that in times of crisis, applications go up (this year was specially competitive) because you need the extra credentials to either secure a job or land one once the economic crisis starts to fold back and there are a lot of unemployed people.

also, DO NOT take an LLM if you plan to look for a job in BIG LAW, do the JD (although this will set you back even further financially) but if you plan to work in an International Org, or back home, an LLM might get your resume the edge you need to land a better paycheck.

Remember, economic crisis pass, but you're never going to be 20-30 again, and it's hard to take an LLM when you have 2 kids, married, 50-something and have a steady job.

<blockquote>I've been reading these posts and think that people should calm down a bit with all this pessimism! Firstly, if your motivation for doing an LL.M is purely to get a job in the US then well a JD might be a better idea. However, if you are truly interested in exploring legal issues in a particular area to an advanced level then its a no-brainer.

Yes, the US LL.M is expensive but no more expensive than previous years and if you couldn't afford to do it then there's no sense in spending $$ you don't have! Personally, I've been deferring my LL.M for a number of years now and have finally decided to do it irrespective of the economic climate - why? Because its something I've wanted to do for a number of years and if I don't do it now, I'll never do it.

So to all those doubting/worrying/panicking - if you TRULY want to do an LL.M then you should...its as simple as that! If you have to think about it then maybe its not the right thing for you to do now...</blockquote>

I totally agree,

YES there are serious economic issues all over the globe. YES, don't spend money you don't have, specially now because jobs are the most precious (my precious) asset you can have. NO, LLM's are not a waste of time, in fact, I heard that in times of crisis, applications go up (this year was specially competitive) because you need the extra credentials to either secure a job or land one once the economic crisis starts to fold back and there are a lot of unemployed people.

also, DO NOT take an LLM if you plan to look for a job in BIG LAW, do the JD (although this will set you back even further financially) but if you plan to work in an International Org, or back home, an LLM might get your resume the edge you need to land a better paycheck.

Remember, economic crisis pass, but you're never going to be 20-30 again, and it's hard to take an LLM when you have 2 kids, married, 50-something and have a steady job.
quote
leiden76

Pessimistic? just look at the headlines and be realistic. the stock market hit its 1997 level today. the financial/legal world is in meltdown.

would you recommend that someone do an llm in 1930 during the great depression and fork out their entire lifesavings and take on loans?

these are not normal times. that's why i am scared about doing an llm and moving away from home during these uncertain times.

it seems a bit too much to spend my life savings for a very expensive degree when the economy is so bad nowadays.

and to top things off, llm costs have gone up a ton since 1997, but everybody seems to be in financial problems now...

Pessimistic? just look at the headlines and be realistic. the stock market hit its 1997 level today. the financial/legal world is in meltdown.

would you recommend that someone do an llm in 1930 during the great depression and fork out their entire lifesavings and take on loans?

these are not normal times. that's why i am scared about doing an llm and moving away from home during these uncertain times.

it seems a bit too much to spend my life savings for a very expensive degree when the economy is so bad nowadays.

and to top things off, llm costs have gone up a ton since 1997, but everybody seems to be in financial problems now...
quote
llmnyc2009

Did you know that only 35% of foreigners pass the NY Bar Exam?

If that's the case, then why got a US LLM if passing the Bar Exam is so tough.

I doubt anyone will be impressed with an LLM if you failed the bar exam. Please help!!!!! I'm scared about how expensive the LLM is, especially if passing the bar is so impossible.


Relax!

These stats also include foreigners who have not taken the LLM. e.g. UK grads who have not undergone any American law studies can qualify to take the bar, and many do as they see it as a quick qualification to A bar.
I dont think you can argue that an LLM is not a distinct advantage to a foreign lawyer in passing the bar in the US.

I have noted that the main obstacles for foreign LLM grads appear to be visa issues and english skills in working in the US. I have neither of these issues and was wondering if anyone knows what the market is like for people in my situation.... well what the market is usually like, or will be in a year and a half when we hopefully will be on the road to recovery in this market.

<blockquote>Did you know that only 35% of foreigners pass the NY Bar Exam?

If that's the case, then why got a US LLM if passing the Bar Exam is so tough.

I doubt anyone will be impressed with an LLM if you failed the bar exam. Please help!!!!! I'm scared about how expensive the LLM is, especially if passing the bar is so impossible. </blockquote>

Relax!

These stats also include foreigners who have not taken the LLM. e.g. UK grads who have not undergone any American law studies can qualify to take the bar, and many do as they see it as a quick qualification to A bar.
I dont think you can argue that an LLM is not a distinct advantage to a foreign lawyer in passing the bar in the US.

I have noted that the main obstacles for foreign LLM grads appear to be visa issues and english skills in working in the US. I have neither of these issues and was wondering if anyone knows what the market is like for people in my situation.... well what the market is usually like, or will be in a year and a half when we hopefully will be on the road to recovery in this market.
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Destiny09

associates promoted not sacked...hooray
http://www.nylj.com/nylawyer/news/09/02/022509l.html

associates promoted not sacked...hooray
http://www.nylj.com/nylawyer/news/09/02/022509l.html
quote

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