big law


Bosnalaw
quote
jsd
Hey guys,

I was reading a lot about the (slim) chances for a job in a big law firm upon graduation for us LLM students. However, I would really appritiate if anyone has some personal examples of people who did it. What was their profil like? I mean, if I get into Columbia, Harvard or Yale, do I have a realistic chance or is it just slightly better than from any other relativelly good law school? How much does the country of origin matters? I speak french and I am a tax lawyer. Do I stand a chance beeing from a small jurisdiction that does not matter at all for the firms? Well I know that there is not one awnser to all this questions but I would appritiate any imput


No ambiguity. Your chances in the present climate are N-I-L.

That's right. JDs from Harvard and Columbia are stalking partners at the big firms during lunch and coffee, all hoping for a job. These are outstanding students in top 25% o their JD class and they dont have a job. There's no reason for law firms to give a job to a 9-month tourist who needs to be competent on NY law not to mentioon grind through a bar exam as well as get an L1 visa.

Simply speaking do NOT get indebted to finance an LLM even at the best places thinking you'll get a job. You won't and lots of people I know have suffered due to it.
<blockquote>Hey guys,

I was reading a lot about the (slim) chances for a job in a big law firm upon graduation for us LLM students. However, I would really appritiate if anyone has some personal examples of people who did it. What was their profil like? I mean, if I get into Columbia, Harvard or Yale, do I have a realistic chance or is it just slightly better than from any other relativelly good law school? How much does the country of origin matters? I speak french and I am a tax lawyer. Do I stand a chance beeing from a small jurisdiction that does not matter at all for the firms? Well I know that there is not one awnser to all this questions but I would appritiate any imput</blockquote>

No ambiguity. Your chances in the present climate are N-I-L.

That's right. JDs from Harvard and Columbia are stalking partners at the big firms during lunch and coffee, all hoping for a job. These are outstanding students in top 25% o their JD class and they dont have a job. There's no reason for law firms to give a job to a 9-month tourist who needs to be competent on NY law not to mentioon grind through a bar exam as well as get an L1 visa.

Simply speaking do NOT get indebted to finance an LLM even at the best places thinking you'll get a job. You won't and lots of people I know have suffered due to it.
quote
llmhls


Simply speaking do NOT get indebted to finance an LLM even at the best places thinking you'll get a job. You won't and lots of people I know have suffered due to it.


I could not agree more with this part, however I am not that sure that you have apsolutely no chance to find a job afterwards... Especially for tax law there is always some firm in search for an international specialist. The people from the NYU tax programs have usually good job prospects. It should not be that much worse for an european/asian tax specialist with a top LLM in the USA. How big your chance is, well i guess it depends, but it will obviously be hard to find something good....Maybe you have better chances back home. The top LLMs are quite highly valued in certain european law firms if the rest of your profile fits...
<blockquote><blockquote>

Simply speaking do NOT get indebted to finance an LLM even at the best places thinking you'll get a job. You won't and lots of people I know have suffered due to it.</blockquote>

I could not agree more with this part, however I am not that sure that you have apsolutely no chance to find a job afterwards... Especially for tax law there is always some firm in search for an international specialist. The people from the NYU tax programs have usually good job prospects. It should not be that much worse for an european/asian tax specialist with a top LLM in the USA. How big your chance is, well i guess it depends, but it will obviously be hard to find something good....Maybe you have better chances back home. The top LLMs are quite highly valued in certain european law firms if the rest of your profile fits...
quote
jsd

Especially for tax law there is always some firm in search for an international specialist. The people from the NYU tax programs have usually good job prospects. It should not be that much worse for an european/asian tax specialist with a top LLM in the USA.


That's balderdash. Hiring of "international" taxation practitioners is anything except LLM oriented. The practice is very local as well meaning nobody will go to a NYC office of a firm for advice on Swiss tax laws. Obviously the NYC office wont be looking around for a NY-qualified swiss tax lawyer fresh out of LLM.

We all hear about the occasional bloke who got a lucky break. For every such jackpot winner there are a dozen losers waiting to board their flights home with long faces and light purses. Back to drudgery in their home country where suddenly Yale or Harvard on the wall doesnt pay the mortgage.

Anyway for some stats , in my LLM class less than 5% landed jobs in NYC. At our last online "reunion" more than half were back in their old jobs with nothing to show for the $$$ spent.
<blockquote>
Especially for tax law there is always some firm in search for an international specialist. The people from the NYU tax programs have usually good job prospects. It should not be that much worse for an european/asian tax specialist with a top LLM in the USA.
</blockquote>

That's balderdash. Hiring of "international" taxation practitioners is anything except LLM oriented. The practice is very local as well meaning nobody will go to a NYC office of a firm for advice on Swiss tax laws. Obviously the NYC office wont be looking around for a NY-qualified swiss tax lawyer fresh out of LLM.

We all hear about the occasional bloke who got a lucky break. For every such jackpot winner there are a dozen losers waiting to board their flights home with long faces and light purses. Back to drudgery in their home country where suddenly Yale or Harvard on the wall doesnt pay the mortgage.

Anyway for some stats , in my LLM class less than 5% landed jobs in NYC. At our last online "reunion" more than half were back in their old jobs with nothing to show for the $$$ spent.
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llmhls
May I ask at which school you got your LLM? I mean, I have actually not heard about any tax llm at NYU that had trouble to land a job. Especially as such LLMs are regarded higher than JDs due to the lack of specialisation in an ordinary JD program. I still would not say that it is a lottery win. 5% of your class may be 10-20% of the people actually interested to land a job in NYC so the chances are not great but from my perspective they are there if you have the right credentials
May I ask at which school you got your LLM? I mean, I have actually not heard about any tax llm at NYU that had trouble to land a job. Especially as such LLMs are regarded higher than JDs due to the lack of specialisation in an ordinary JD program. I still would not say that it is a lottery win. 5% of your class may be 10-20% of the people actually interested to land a job in NYC so the chances are not great but from my perspective they are there if you have the right credentials
quote
jsd
May I ask at which school you got your LLM? I mean, I have actually not heard about any tax llm at NYU that had trouble to land a job. Especially as such LLMs are regarded higher than JDs due to the lack of specialisation in an ordinary JD program. I still would not say that it is a lottery win. 5% of your class may be 10-20% of the people actually interested to land a job in NYC so the chances are not great but from my perspective they are there if you have the right credentials


I dont reveal my school as it leads to too many PMs.

The NYU tax program is a poor choice to judge the success of LLMs as a whole in landing jobs. The class size is small (22 few years ago, maybe more now) and most are already employed in stellar firms and simply get back into the mother ship after graduation day. To send someone off into a $80k hole because an NYU LLM girl got a job is taking some long odds. Most of the job-landing types actually get offers in HK / singapore / Dubai , not NYC.
<blockquote>May I ask at which school you got your LLM? I mean, I have actually not heard about any tax llm at NYU that had trouble to land a job. Especially as such LLMs are regarded higher than JDs due to the lack of specialisation in an ordinary JD program. I still would not say that it is a lottery win. 5% of your class may be 10-20% of the people actually interested to land a job in NYC so the chances are not great but from my perspective they are there if you have the right credentials</blockquote>

I dont reveal my school as it leads to too many PMs.

The NYU tax program is a poor choice to judge the success of LLMs as a whole in landing jobs. The class size is small (22 few years ago, maybe more now) and most are already employed in stellar firms and simply get back into the mother ship after graduation day. To send someone off into a $80k hole because an NYU LLM girl got a job is taking some long odds. Most of the job-landing types actually get offers in HK / singapore / Dubai , not NYC.
quote
Bosnalaw


I dont reveal my school as it leads to too many PMs.

The NYU tax program is a poor choice to judge the success of LLMs as a whole in landing jobs. The class size is small (22 few years ago, maybe more now) and most are already employed in stellar firms and simply get back into the mother ship after graduation day. To send someone off into a $80k hole because an NYU LLM girl got a job is taking some long odds. Most of the job-landing types actually get offers in HK / singapore / Dubai , not NYC.


So you did a JSD? Is this better regarding job chances?
<blockquote>

I dont reveal my school as it leads to too many PMs.

The NYU tax program is a poor choice to judge the success of LLMs as a whole in landing jobs. The class size is small (22 few years ago, maybe more now) and most are already employed in stellar firms and simply get back into the mother ship after graduation day. To send someone off into a $80k hole because an NYU LLM girl got a job is taking some long odds. Most of the job-landing types actually get offers in HK / singapore / Dubai , not NYC. </blockquote>

So you did a JSD? Is this better regarding job chances?
quote
jsd


So you did a JSD? Is this better regarding job chances?


not a chance. The JSD actually hinders job chances at most for-profit firms as spending 3 years away on a research limb can send the wrong message to would-be employers. By the time you get your degree you're way too old for the job age band.

The days of LLM--> NYC Job are long over. After 2007 its been a meltdown. Hell, law firms are going bust and hundreds of well qualified attorneys from HLS, Georgetown, CLS and NYU are out on the street. It hasnt helped that many wall street traders who lost their jobs did a JD and joined the whiteshoe firms. It's just apalling now, the number of people who relise *after* their LLM that the dollars were not worth it.
<blockquote>

So you did a JSD? Is this better regarding job chances? </blockquote>

not a chance. The JSD actually hinders job chances at most for-profit firms as spending 3 years away on a research limb can send the wrong message to would-be employers. By the time you get your degree you're way too old for the job age band.

The days of LLM--> NYC Job are long over. After 2007 its been a meltdown. Hell, law firms are going bust and hundreds of well qualified attorneys from HLS, Georgetown, CLS and NYU are out on the street. It hasnt helped that many wall street traders who lost their jobs did a JD and joined the whiteshoe firms. It's just apalling now, the number of people who relise *after* their LLM that the dollars were not worth it.
quote
grumpyJD
There is a lot of truth in what you have said but some caveats do apply. Applications to the US law schools (JD programs) have been down for several years so there is a market correction in the works. Having said, it's probably only the new US JD graduates who will benefit. Foreign LLM's aren't likely to see much of a change. If anything, there are more foreign LLMs than ever so it's a bit worse. To that you can add more domestic LLMs because some JDs who didn't land jobs stuck around for an extra year. The law schools don't want to admit more LLM students with unrealistic expectations of finding jobs in NY or CA. Who could blame them? The Career Services Offices on those campuses must be overwhelmed with desperate students and it's bad for morale and the schools' reputations. I wouldn't be applying to an LLM if I didn't already have a job in my home country and an offer in the US. Sure, I will check out the options in the US but I am not counting on it. As for the SJD, it's an academic qualification. Firms want people who are operational. If you were admitted to the bar 4 years ago but spent that time getting an SJD, you have no more practical experience than a newly minted JD. It won't add to your marketability, quite the opposite.
There is a lot of truth in what you have said but some caveats do apply. Applications to the US law schools (JD programs) have been down for several years so there is a market correction in the works. Having said, it's probably only the new US JD graduates who will benefit. Foreign LLM's aren't likely to see much of a change. If anything, there are more foreign LLMs than ever so it's a bit worse. To that you can add more domestic LLMs because some JDs who didn't land jobs stuck around for an extra year. The law schools don't want to admit more LLM students with unrealistic expectations of finding jobs in NY or CA. Who could blame them? The Career Services Offices on those campuses must be overwhelmed with desperate students and it's bad for morale and the schools' reputations. I wouldn't be applying to an LLM if I didn't already have a job in my home country and an offer in the US. Sure, I will check out the options in the US but I am not counting on it. As for the SJD, it's an academic qualification. Firms want people who are operational. If you were admitted to the bar 4 years ago but spent that time getting an SJD, you have no more practical experience than a newly minted JD. It won't add to your marketability, quite the opposite.
quote
Bosnalaw
quote
grumpyJD
I'm happy if my comments are helpful but, as with any information on the Internet, it always makes sense to do your own research. I am just repeating what I have read and heard from sources that I believe to be credible. In the end, we all take risks that's just the nature of all life's big decisions. It sounds like you have a good scholarship lined up and that is a huge advantage. Also, a tax LLM really belongs to a distinct category. I wouldn't want to teach myself tax and a lot of boutique tax firms virtually require an accounting designation or an LLM in tax. There may be other factors to consider too. For example, how will employers in your home country view the LLM? This is a really big consideration. In some countries, an LLM is a big advantage because it shows your knowledge of US law, your familiarity with American culture, and your ability to work in English. Lastly, how much would the experience be worth to you? This is the biggest selling point for me. I loved law school and I am really excited to spend another year focusing on the subjects that fascinate me. Whatever you choose, best of luck!!
I'm happy if my comments are helpful but, as with any information on the Internet, it always makes sense to do your own research. I am just repeating what I have read and heard from sources that I believe to be credible. In the end, we all take risks – that's just the nature of all life's big decisions. It sounds like you have a good scholarship lined up and that is a huge advantage. Also, a tax LLM really belongs to a distinct category. I wouldn't want to teach myself tax and a lot of boutique tax firms virtually require an accounting designation or an LLM in tax. There may be other factors to consider too. For example, how will employers in your home country view the LLM? This is a really big consideration. In some countries, an LLM is a big advantage because it shows your knowledge of US law, your familiarity with American culture, and your ability to work in English. Lastly, how much would the experience be worth to you? This is the biggest selling point for me. I loved law school and I am really excited to spend another year focusing on the subjects that fascinate me. Whatever you choose, best of luck!!
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Bosnalaw
quote
A bit of a sobering thread!

I am work in a firm in Hong Kong but was really thinking that I could use an American LLM to get into a big law firm in the US. But it sounds like the chances are low.

Just a couple questions:
- are there things I could do to improve my chances of landing a job in big law (besides taking the bar, which is a no-brainer
- what about specializations that can help?
- do the big law firms value international experience?

Thanks for any advice, I'm a bit lost now.
A bit of a sobering thread!

I am work in a firm in Hong Kong but was really thinking that I could use an American LLM to get into a big law firm in the US. But it sounds like the chances are low.

Just a couple questions:
- are there things I could do to improve my chances of landing a job in big law (besides taking the bar, which is a no-brainer
- what about specializations that can help?
- do the big law firms value international experience?

Thanks for any advice, I'm a bit lost now.
quote

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