I'm from the UK. I'm looking to apply to Harvard, Yale, Georgetown and a bunch of other east coast schools. What sort of grades am I looking at to get in? I got a First in my BA (Oxford - not Law, tho, Philosophy, Politics and Economics) and did the Graduate Diploma in Law last year (Distinction). At 27 i'm a bit older too - will that count against me? I've got some work experience (about 4 years), but it's not legal per se - altho it is almost, mainly in financial regulation - will that help me?

Also - i want to practice, rather than teach after the LLM. I'm doing the Bar Vocational Course this year. Are they receptive to this or do they just want people who'll go on to academia?

Grateful for any thoughts/insights from US people, or UK people with US experiences.

Many thanks in advance.

Your experiance will help you...

Most schools would prefer that you want to practice after getting the degree instead of teaching...

Hello all. I am looking into studying an LLM in the North East of the USA but, not coming from the USA, am having some difficulty in choosing what schools to apply for.

I am currently in my final year of the LLB degree at Newcastle University (England). This law undergraduate programme is ratd about 25th by the Times newspaper but in the practical world is rated much higher (try 15th ish).

Unfortunately last year I didn't get the grades I wanted. I received a 2:1 degree with an average of 63%. I am, however, confident about pushing this up to a 65% or higher this year.

I have not had real work experience of the legal profession as I am still only 20 years old. I have, however, had an accumulative 7 weeks spent shadowing judges, barristers and solicitors.

I have a number of other activities including voluntary work both national and international, martial arts (black belt in jujitsu and beginning shotokan), and have a strong musical interest (playing guitar in local bands).

My problem is, what schools, if any are likely to take me on for the LLM course? I would love to go to a top school like Harvard, Yale etc...however I don't think I really have a chance of getting into such places (is that right?). Would schools like Boston College or NYU be interested in me? It is a lot of money to spend on applications that are not going to get me anywhere?

Secondly, can I apply before I finish my LLB on the condidtion that I will receive my LLB and a certain grade from that course?

Any input would be much appreciated. Thankyou.

To both the kids from the UK:

I'm a UK national who moved here in 1999 to do the LLM. I had an american fiance and so transferred into the JD program. I've been here since, practising civil litigation, and some criminal defense.

As for age - no, 27 is not considered old at all. Average age in my entering class was 27, with a good spread between 25 and 35. It's a very different feel to an entering class at uni in the UK. If you are still in that mind frame, then be prepared for a shock. People at top law schools are very focused.

As for which school you have a chance of getting into - I applied to Harvard with a high 2.1 (69% average) from Southampton Uni (top 20 school), but was rejected. Seriously, it's a crapshoot if you didn't graduate from Oxbridge or LSE with a First. Harvard is well aware of UK grading and schools.

Having said that, a top US school is not out of the question. I got into a top 30 school. Apply to the likes of Harvard and Yale by all means, but also apply to the likes of NYU, Fordham, UCLA - in other words, a good spread of schools in Tier 1.

Don't go below Tier 1 though. There are 180 ABA approved law schools. Tier 1 comprises the top 50. Tier 2 the next 51-100, and Tier 3 the remaining 101-180 (I think that's how it works).

I don't think application fees are that high, esp. considering current exchange rates. I applied to 6 and got accepted by 2.

Most UK LLB grads with a 2.1 from a half decent uni, coupled with a good personal statement, should be able to get into a Tier 1 LLM.

Remember to factor in expenses - some schools surpass $20K per year - though they do tend to be the best schools which more or less guarantee one a great jon on graduation. Then there are schools like UCLA - top 20 - which charge less than $10K per year. I believe admission to Harvard is finance-blind, meaning that if you are accepted and you "and" your parents (depending on your age) don't make enough, they "will" cover your tuition. I'm not sure if LLM students are eligible though.

My best advice is: once you get in - prepare to study - not necessarily a lot - rather, study "smart." Make sure your grades put you in at least the top 20% of the class. You won't regret it. Remember, the grades you get (for the most part) are not based upon % of questions answered correctly, but on a bell curve showing how you did in relation to everyone else who took the exam. Hence, you could get 10% and still get the top grade, or 90% and the bottom grade!


BTW, I do wing chun kung fu and love it.

Feel free to post me if you need more info.

Thankyou Underemployed. Your information is a great source of direction to me. If you don't mind can I ask you where you did study your LLM and if you would recommend it?

I would love to here the particulars of the course too. What were the advantages and disadvantages. Are there any materials that I should read before applying to your LLM course? Were there any lecturers there that I could read up on (perhaps read some of there professional research to shine a bit in my application procedure).

Also I would love to hear about your professional career. You say you practice in civil litigation and do some criminal defence. Where do you practice? For what firm?

Concerning the fact that the LLM students tend to me mid to late 20's is it possible that applying at my age is too young? Would that be a factor that would go against me in my application procedure?

Really, I am eager for as much knowledge on this subject as possible. Thankyou, if I am being a pest please stop me from asking so many questions.

You probably wouldn't want to study where I did. The law school is at a private religiously affiliated univerisity with a rather strict honor code.

Age is not taken into consideration by most admissions boards. You are eligible to apply as long as you have a law degree from you home country. good grades, some legal experience of any type, and good extracurriculars. I would say the 3 most important factors in gaining admission are (1) your grades and class ranking, (2) good references, and (3) an effective and mature personal statement.

Not all UK law schools automatically give you a class ranking, but mine did when I asked them for it. At graduation we were called out in order of ranking rather than alphabetically, so I could also determine it from the list. Of course, you will be applying for the LLM before graduation so you may need to ask, and insist on it too - it you think it's good.

If you already have grades that show you are on course for a good 2.1 (or above), and you are going to a good university, then you should be okay getting into a Tier 1 school. Top 10 is pretty competative though, so apply to a good scattering of schools in Tier 1 ie the top 50. Check out US News & World Rpt Law School Rankings for the low down.

Remember, state schools and cheaper than private schools, for the most part. And there are some highly ranked state schools such as UCLA. However, if you can get into the Ivy League/Top10, go for it. An LLM from somewhere like Harvard will more or less guarantee that some of the highest paying firms in London will offer you a training contract afterwards.

As for preparation - remember, it's only a 9 month course and by the time you get the hang of it it could be too late to attain those stellar grades which you will need later on. Once admitted, select the topics you know you want to study. I based my choice on quality of professors rather than subject matter. Others base it on exam format for the given subject. Call the law school beforehand and talk to people, esp, students whose names you can find as leaders on law review etc as to who is a good teacher and who is not. It can make a big difference. The course books you will buy to prepare for class are usless for learning the law - they are large expensive heavy hardbound case books. There is little to no explanation of the law - you are required to find the law in a 10-30 page judicial opinion, and will be required to read a 2 or 3 such opinions for each class (usually 12-15 classes per week). Try and purchase a study book for each subject called Gilbert. These books are published by BarBri and can be bought in all university book stores. They are like exactly like BarBri exam study materials, but they are actually more in depth! So will put you in good stead when it comes to taking the bar, which no doubt you will do. The classes I got very high grades in were those I used Gilbert for, combined with memorization of what the professor said in every class. My school taped each class and allowed us to obtain copies. Understanding the basic principles, and repeating and apply "what the prof said" back at him on the exam answer, is a sure way to impress him or her.

If there are any must-do courses for a foreign LLM, I would say they are civil procedure and constitutional law, both of which are an essential backdrop to most other subjects, important elements of which crop up in courses like corporations, securities, criminal law etc.

For myself I did an LLM/JD at BYU Law which ranked about 28 at the time, though it has since dropped in the rankings - due to lack of diversity in my opinion - mostly all white conservative married guys (that included me I'm afraid to say). I had a real hard time finding a job thereafter and worked for a solo for a while for peanuts. Now I work for a small (7 attorney firm) out west. I've never earned more than $70K, however, I got to do my own jury trials and oral submissions on appeal within a year of graduation, something that is unheard of in biglaw firms. Early on I did plenty of criminal defense, but now I do mostly business litigation and arbitration.

Hope that helps. Feel free to give me an email and I can give you more advice as and when you need it.

How did you fund your LLM?

My JD cost about $2,500 per semester (6 semesters, 3 years) for a total of $15,000. The same school probably charges about $3,500 per semester now.

I had about 3K UKP in savings before I went, about $4,500 at the time. I received a $500/mth scholarship, took out a private law school loan of about $10,000, and worked about 20 hrs per week for about $12/hr. My parents also gave me about $5000 over the course of the 3 years.

You have to note though that my school was very cheap for a private school, and the cost of living was very low in the town where it was located. My living expenses (food, rent, car, gasoline, entertainment) were about $500-600/mth give or take - I rented a room in an old wooden 19th century home for $100/mth, purchased a 10 yr old truck for less than $1000, and gas was about $1/gallon at the time

It's a very different story if you go to an expensive private law school in a big east or west coast city. However, there are a few good state law schools which cost less than $15,000 per year. I think Harvard is more like $40,000/yr, but you need to check.

For myself, I would have gotten myself into debt for the sake of going to the likes of Harvard or Yale had I been accepted

Dear Underemployed Lawyer

I am looking to go to Law school, most likely BYU (I'm LDS) but unlike you am not going there with an American fiance.

The prospect of starting the LLM and then transfering to the JD is interesting as it means no need for the LSAT??

I dont have an undergraduate degree in law though. I went to Kingston University London and have a BA (Hons) in International Studies which covered Economics Politics and Media/History. It was very much a springboard degree. I have a 2:1 thanks to a bad car accident but also can show via transcripts that I was 1 point from a first and have a doctors certificate saying the meds I was on in my final year would have altered my abilities to perform. So I think that will go to my advantage??
I've got a particular penchant for this type of field, and on my study abroad in France covered trademark law too although it was only one class not a whole degree.

I've been out of uni now for one year and I'm not happy in my sales and marketing job for an IT firm. I know its not where I am supposed to be.

Can I do the LLM without a Bachelors in Law? And I've been trying to find the cost of it at BYU but have so far been unsuccessful.

I am also interested in what you said about jobs - I want to stay in the USA...I served my mission there, have been there loads since and before, and want to get there. I want to do Law but I dont want to get there on a student visa, finish a degree, only to be denied a job and the ability to stay in the country. I dont want to have to come back to the UK, get a job in london as a trainee solicitor and earn £35k a yr after slogging my guts out.

(hopefully there will be funding available too, I'm from a family about as wealthy as a brazilian applying for the perpetual education fund from the church)

Can you advise me on any of my questions? So far the posts I've stumbled across have been the most helpful compared to schools, including a meeting with the BYU dean Carl Hernandez who I met in June 07.

Thanks in advance and I hope to hear from you soon!!!

Perhaps I can call you direct? My email is rogersnccm@yahoo.com if you can give me your number?
Kindest regards,

Rogersnccm

Hi Roger (?):

I sent you a message with my #. Feel free to call. However, I think you need at least a first degree in law to do the LLM at BYU. What did Dean Hernandez tell you? I know UK LLM courses admit those with degrees in other disciplines. I don't see why you need a first degree in law to do the LLM since LLM students take courses alongside 1L students who have never studied law beforehand.

Having said that, those IL students have a first degree in another subject (like you do) but are required to sit the LSAT in order to gain admission. LLMs don't have to sit the LSAT because they have already studied law. So, I'm thinking the school would require you to sit the LSAT and apply for the JD program. I'm not sure if they restrict JD program entry to US citizens or permanent residents, since most schools are hesitant to offer places to overseas students who don't have the right to work in the US, although once in the LLM program, most students with decent grades have no problem transferring to the JD program.

I'd definitely consult with the dean of admissions again. Many LLMs do remain in the US after graduation, either because they marry American women (or men) or get a 6 year work permit during which time they apply for permanent residency.

BTW, 35K for a trainee is pretty good. You will slogg your guts out here too if you work for a large firm, even more so than in the UK. My good friend at Sidley works 6-7 days per week, 10-12 hours/day, and has done so since 2002. My other friend at DLA gets into the office at 6am on a monday and works every day (incl. saturday) until about 8/9pm, just so that she can go to church on sundays and be with her husband and kids.

On the other hand, if it's reasonably well paid small law firm work you are looking for, then Utah tops anywhere else in my opinion. An entry level salary at a small firm is about $40,000-50,000 on average, and when you compare cost of living, buys you as much as 40-50K (in pounds!) in the UK would. You can buy your own home straight out of law school, and that is almost unheard of in the big legal markets like London, NY or LA.

Maybe you should apply to BYU to do a master's program which compliments your undergraduate studies, and see what happens later. Seems like you want to live here. Hit campus and start dating! You'll be married in no time. The women outnumber men at BYU. Tuition and cost of living is low, and you can work part-time up to 20 hours per week.

Hi

I am completinf my fifth and last year of legal study in France, I am LDS and I wanted to know how hard the competition was to be admitted to do a LLM.

I intend to submit for next fall, and I would like to know my chances, knowing that I got 103 on the iB Toefl, and that I already studied Law in Germany(and I am fluent in German too)

thanks

I meant "completing" (sorry ^^)

Secondly, can I apply before I finish my LLB on the condidtion that I will receive my LLB and a certain grade from that course?

Any input would be much appreciated. Thankyou.