2010 U.S. News Rankings

Hedek

76 152

Posted Apr 15, 2009 12:18

that said, you must acknowledge that NYU is all about its law school, while Yale, Harvard, Stanford and Columbia excel in both undergraduate and professional schools.

I hear the "law school is the diamond amongst an otherwise average university" argument. And imo such law schools have even more merit, especially NYU and Georgetown (with the exception of the school of foreign service). They built their reputation on their own, without being dragged by an overall name brand (such as Duke or Cornell).

And I'd bet such law schools would be ranked even higher had they been part of a prestigious undergrad college. NYU would easily be tied at rank 3 and Georgetown consistently between rank 6 and 10. Let's face it, the only thing Columbia has over NYU is its history, alumni at top positions (Supreme Court, US President, etc.), name brand prestige and ivy league.

<blockquote>that said, you must acknowledge that NYU is all about its law school, while Yale, Harvard, Stanford and Columbia excel in both undergraduate and professional schools.</blockquote>

I hear the "law school is the diamond amongst an otherwise average university" argument. And imo such law schools have even more merit, especially NYU and Georgetown (with the exception of the school of foreign service). They built their reputation on their own, without being dragged by an overall name brand (such as Duke or Cornell).

And I'd bet such law schools would be ranked even higher had they been part of a prestigious undergrad college. NYU would easily be tied at rank 3 and Georgetown consistently between rank 6 and 10. Let's face it, the only thing Columbia has over NYU is its history, alumni at top positions (Supreme Court, US President, etc.), name brand prestige and ivy league.

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Hedek

76 152

Posted Apr 15, 2009 12:42

Your consideration is perfect Stagista11. In fact, big law firms in the US use the principle of diversification. They prefer not to hire all or too many students from the same school. Therefore, in the end, your biggest competitors are your classmates. If you have less classmates, you have better chances of getting a job. I have been surprised to find out, for example, that many Harvard LLMs cant find a position in US (even before the economic crisis). I suppose the main reason is because they are in a big class (150).

Yeah that's my main concern as well. Though, in my case I think it's all the better: I need to be somewhat under pressure to deliver anything worthy.

Had I been accepted at HYS, I'm almost certain I'd rank last because I'll be partying from day 1 to commencement to celebrate my admission lol. And I'd be like "it doesn't matter whether I get a low pass, I still have the HYS-bomb on my resume!".

Edit to add: Stagista, I strongly disagree with ranking Northwestern and UVA above UPenn and UMich. Well UPenn perhaps, but UMich no way. Ann Arbor is very highly regarded by other law schools and, more importantly, by recruiters (#2 at Vault). http://www.vault.com/lawschool/rankingtop25/

It's a very underrated school and that's mostly due to its somewhat difficult location (cold weather, and suffered from the decline of Detroit). In contrast UVA has had 20% more applicants this year, Virginia is a beautiful state indeed.
Likewise, and probably for the same reasons, you overrate Berkeley. Yes it's in California, but people have been having mixed feelings about Berkeley (the city).

<blockquote>Your consideration is perfect Stagista11. In fact, big law firms in the US use the principle of diversification. They prefer not to hire all or too many students from the same school. Therefore, in the end, your biggest competitors are your classmates. If you have less classmates, you have better chances of getting a job. I have been surprised to find out, for example, that many Harvard LLMs cant find a position in US (even before the economic crisis). I suppose the main reason is because they are in a big class (150).</blockquote>

Yeah that's my main concern as well. Though, in my case I think it's all the better: I need to be somewhat under pressure to deliver anything worthy.

Had I been accepted at HYS, I'm almost certain I'd rank last because I'll be partying from day 1 to commencement to celebrate my admission lol. And I'd be like "it doesn't matter whether I get a low pass, I still have the HYS-bomb on my resume!".

Edit to add: Stagista, I strongly disagree with ranking Northwestern and UVA above UPenn and UMich. Well UPenn perhaps, but UMich no way. Ann Arbor is very highly regarded by other law schools and, more importantly, by recruiters (#2 at Vault). http://www.vault.com/lawschool/rankingtop25/

It's a very underrated school and that's mostly due to its somewhat difficult location (cold weather, and suffered from the decline of Detroit). In contrast UVA has had 20% more applicants this year, Virginia is a beautiful state indeed.
Likewise, and probably for the same reasons, you overrate Berkeley. Yes it's in California, but people have been having mixed feelings about Berkeley (the city).

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Stagista11

557 1.093

Posted Apr 15, 2009 13:37

must admit that I don't have much information about UMichigan, and -honestly- it sounds a little overestimated to me, but -of course- I can be mistaken...on the other hand, Berkeley still sounds too good to me despite what you're saying (hope you don't mind). since I don't want to become a lawyer (and I may be a little crazy if I feel confident about working in a US law firm once the master is over), I'd rather consider going to Berkeley over UMichigan...weather would play a part in my decision, but wouldn't be my first concern...

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Santa

214 428

Posted Apr 15, 2009 17:30

From my perspective Michigan has a very good brand name. I knew it before applying, unlike fe Duke, Cornell, UVA or PennLaw.

I think I would think very hard before picking Penn or Berkeley over Michigan.

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KimchiTax

35 69

Posted Apr 15, 2009 18:57

Santa; is this your real picture?

FYI, I am not in my profile pic. (I am neither Janice Dickinson nor her models. lol..)

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Hedek

76 152

Posted Apr 15, 2009 19:02

Santa; is this your real picture?

Is this a trick question? If not, that's Edward Norton in Fight Club.

<blockquote>Santa; is this your real picture?</blockquote>Is this a trick question? If not, that's Edward Norton in Fight Club.

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Santa

214 428

Posted Apr 15, 2009 19:20

Santa; is this your real picture?

FYI, I am not in my profile pic. (I am neither Janice Dickinson nor her models. lol..)

Nope that's The Narrator from Fight Club!

Hedek posts faster than his shadow!

<blockquote>Santa; is this your real picture?

FYI, I am not in my profile pic. (I am neither Janice Dickinson nor her models. lol..)</blockquote>
Nope that's The Narrator from Fight Club!

Hedek posts faster than his shadow!

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KimchiTax

35 69

Posted Apr 15, 2009 19:31

I saw the movie. He looks very different in Santa's picture.
He is quite old now. (I mean, Edward Norton, and not our Santa.)

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Dumdedum

20 39

Posted Apr 16, 2009 00:37

that said, you must acknowledge that NYU is all about its law school, while Yale, Harvard, Stanford and Columbia excel in both undergraduate and professional schools.

I hear the "law school is the diamond amongst an otherwise average university" argument. And imo such law schools have even more merit, especially NYU and Georgetown (with the exception of the school of foreign service). They built their reputation on their own, without being dragged by an overall name brand (such as Duke or Cornell).

It's interesting. NYU is not ranked that high in the "best universities" list. Columbia being for example number 11 and NYU number 29. http://www.ulinks.com/topuniversities.htm . I hear though that it has the best school in philosophy and the best in film/art. Stern is also a top 10 business school.

There's also this: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a00xg.dB1eQI&refer=us (NYU Voted number 1 dream school for several years)

NYU is a top 5 in Law as we know and it's interesting what you say... that's why I found this peculiar, check it out:
http://abovethelaw.com/2009/04/how_much_do_your_professors_ma.php
Apparently NYU's salaries for professors on average are $170,700 and it's very close to Columbia, Yale and Chicago. Only Harvard is substantially higher ($190,000). How can NYU maintain these high salaries if its schools are ranked low (in medicine, science or whatever it is).

The answer must be IMO that its salaries for law professors are HIGHER than the rest compensating for the probable low salaries on the rest... again appearing to me their dominant position in the law school market. That's just a guess or an extrapolation though.

<blockquote><blockquote>that said, you must acknowledge that NYU is all about its law school, while Yale, Harvard, Stanford and Columbia excel in both undergraduate and professional schools.</blockquote>

I hear the "law school is the diamond amongst an otherwise average university" argument. And imo such law schools have even more merit, especially NYU and Georgetown (with the exception of the school of foreign service). They built their reputation on their own, without being dragged by an overall name brand (such as Duke or Cornell).
</blockquote>

It's interesting. NYU is not ranked that high in the "best universities" list. Columbia being for example number 11 and NYU number 29. http://www.ulinks.com/topuniversities.htm . I hear though that it has the best school in philosophy and the best in film/art. Stern is also a top 10 business school.

There's also this: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a00xg.dB1eQI&refer=us (NYU Voted number 1 dream school for several years)

NYU is a top 5 in Law as we know and it's interesting what you say... that's why I found this peculiar, check it out:
http://abovethelaw.com/2009/04/how_much_do_your_professors_ma.php
Apparently NYU's salaries for professors on average are $170,700 and it's very close to Columbia, Yale and Chicago. Only Harvard is substantially higher ($190,000). How can NYU maintain these high salaries if its schools are ranked low (in medicine, science or whatever it is).

The answer must be IMO that its salaries for law professors are HIGHER than the rest compensating for the probable low salaries on the rest... again appearing to me their dominant position in the law school market. That's just a guess or an extrapolation though.

quote

doyouresea...

15 29

Posted Apr 16, 2009 05:46

I think, like others in the market, that NYU might actually grab the 3rd spot soon, after Yale and Harvard. But we'll wait and see.

Errr....no. And I'd love to hear which "market" this is...I can imagine why the NYU vs CLS debate makes sense, or even NYU v Chicago or CLS v Chicago, but your statement flies in the face of all conventional wisdom and the "market" you speak of. Hedek is right...HYS are heads and shoulders than NYU or CLS or Chicago, though where you go between the three of time depends on your aims.

<blockquote>I think, like others in the market, that NYU might actually grab the 3rd spot soon, after Yale and Harvard. But we'll wait and see.
</blockquote>

Errr....no. And I'd love to hear which "market" this is...I can imagine why the NYU vs CLS debate makes sense, or even NYU v Chicago or CLS v Chicago, but your statement flies in the face of all conventional wisdom and the "market" you speak of. Hedek is right...HYS are heads and shoulders than NYU or CLS or Chicago, though where you go between the three of time depends on your aims.

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Dumdedum

20 39

Posted Apr 16, 2009 21:50

it might be today, but this is what people are talking about. and if you read the post you'd have a sense, instead of just replying to some earlier post with your opinion. It's not about who's better today, it's about assessing what the future of the ranking will be.

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Santa

214 428

Posted Apr 16, 2009 22:40

It'll take a long time before HLS/YLS and/or SLS are run over I think. Those are the three big names and that won't change too quickly in my opinion.

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Dumdedum

20 39

Posted Apr 16, 2009 22:44

I agree. But I also agree with Hedek.

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Gloss

42 83

Posted Apr 16, 2009 23:20

Dumdedum, I have to confess I think your comment does not make a lot of sense... lol... Anyway, you seem to be a nice guy and you seem to be a good lawyer, because you are trying to sustain something that cant be sustained. I give you credit for that. Finally, if you found a job in this poor market, you deserve to defend your school, because you did great. But please remember to think twice about that before recommeding someone to go to NYU over YLS, SLS or HLS...

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Hedek

76 152

Posted Apr 16, 2009 23:25

It'll take a long time before HLS/YLS and/or SLS are run over I think. Those are the three big names and that won't change too quickly in my opinion.

I don't think that'll ever happen. The prestige of a law school is 99% history and uncontrollable factors.
HYS are the 3 best law schools in the US because they're the best 3 law schools in the US. There's no logical explanation. Assuming the value of a law school, in the end, is only about its faculty and student body. Then all you need is a name to attract the best faculty and the best students.

And short of tripling their class size and accepting anyone who applies, I can't even see how they could possibly drop.

Even if you inject billions in NYU, the most brilliant minds in the world would still turn down senior faculty positions there to teach at HYS cause "that's more prestigious".
Even if you offer full scholarships to every single student with 3.8+ GPA 174+ LSAT, many of them will sill turn down the offer and pay the full price at HYS because "it's more prestigious".

Being a HYS dean is easy. Really. It's a self-fueled beast, the name is enough to attract the best (professors and students), and that's all you need to stay at the top.

NYU's climb has been impressive, but I agree with Santa, I'm afraid rank 4 is an absolute limit. While money and location has allowed them to attract excellent professors and students, they lack the history and prestige to convince the best in turning down HYS for them.

Edit: Just found this remarkably interesting study written by Professor Seto of Loyola law school: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=937017

<blockquote>It'll take a long time before HLS/YLS and/or SLS are run over I think. Those are the three big names and that won't change too quickly in my opinion. </blockquote>

I don't think that'll ever happen. The prestige of a law school is 99% history and uncontrollable factors.
HYS are the 3 best law schools in the US because they're the best 3 law schools in the US. There's no logical explanation. Assuming the value of a law school, in the end, is only about its faculty and student body. Then all you need is a name to attract the best faculty and the best students.

And short of tripling their class size and accepting anyone who applies, I can't even see how they could possibly drop.

Even if you inject billions in NYU, the most brilliant minds in the world would still turn down senior faculty positions there to teach at HYS cause "that's more prestigious".
Even if you offer full scholarships to every single student with 3.8+ GPA 174+ LSAT, many of them will sill turn down the offer and pay the full price at HYS because "it's more prestigious".

Being a HYS dean is easy. Really. It's a self-fueled beast, the name is enough to attract the best (professors and students), and that's all you need to stay at the top.

NYU's climb has been impressive, but I agree with Santa, I'm afraid rank 4 is an absolute limit. While money and location has allowed them to attract excellent professors and students, they lack the history and prestige to convince the best in turning down HYS for them.

Edit: Just found this remarkably interesting study written by Professor Seto of Loyola law school: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=937017

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Dumdedum

20 39

Posted Apr 16, 2009 23:43

Check this out too.
http://abovethelaw.com/2009/04/yale_law_increases_class_size.php?show=comments#comments

Some comments there are things that I've heard lately, about Stanford's faculty quality declining.

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Gloss

42 83

Posted Apr 17, 2009 00:05

You must need glasses. Read the comments again... the article itself and the absolut majority of the comments are pro-Stanford, some of them even saying the school could be #1 soon. One or two guys wrote against Stanford... cmon man, quit saying nonsense... which big professor left Stanford?

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Hedek

76 152

Posted Apr 17, 2009 00:59

Even if Yale and Stanford were in "decline", that would merely reorder their position in the top 3. They wouldn't actually drop out of the top 3.
And except for ego and useless pride, it makes absolutely no difference whether you graduate from the rank 1 or rank 3 law school.

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Gloss

42 83

Posted Apr 17, 2009 01:10

I agree with Hedek. BTW, regarding the article, I dont think Yale will fall from n.1 anytime soon. But it was a very bad move from them to open more seats...

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Gab2009

54 108

Posted Apr 17, 2009 01:14

Hello guys and gals!!

Given that we are talking about our supernatural powers about predicting the future, there it goes my very best prediction, directly from my crystalball news 2010! (PS. I do not agree completely with which is stated below, but it is my guess! :0])

1# Yale
2#Harvard
3# Stanford
4# Columbia/Chicago
6# NYU
7#Michigan / Berkeley
9# UVA / Upenn
11# Cornell / Northwestern

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