Firstly in reference to your last point I'm not altogether sure why you think it makes a difference that you got a scholarship? Other people have been applying for LLMs since last year and you apply at the end of August and expect to be let in - how does that work? Also in relation to your Oxbridge comment I did my LLM in Cambridge, my undergrad in Ireland and am doing my PhD in a British non-Oxbridge university. You asked an opinion and I gave one if you can get into Harvard or LSE or UCL and have proof of other people with the same grades who have done so more power to you but why bother asking for opinions where you're clearly of the opinion you don't need them? The reality is I have seen people on LLM programmes not ultimately graduating. In my opinion that's an absolutely awful experience for those involved and one I wouldn't wish on anyone. I feel that the admissions process should restrict offers to those who have demostrated at undergraduate level that they are capable of further study.

well so what you are saying is that people with a 2.2 should not be offered a place at a good university, right ??? well i guess you should apply to one of these universities for a job as their admissions tutor, you know a number of people come to do the BVC after having an LLM from Cambrdige or BCL from Oxford and then they fail the BVC, while "UNDESERVING" candidates like me clear it in the first go... how do you judge whether someone will be able to clear the course JUST based on their grades... there could be a hundred factors which influence grades... and plus ucl and lse run commercial LLM, they make money, they admit 350 to 400 students in a class and PhD students like yourself teach them, not the Professors who they see on the website and come to the university in the hope that they will actually teach them. Anyway GOOD FOR U that u got a good grade and now ur going into academia...

Bitter much? I never said that you were "undeserving". I would say that fundamentally the BVC is a very different qualification to the LLM with the first being more practical as such it doesn't surprise me to hear that good students acdemically fail the BVC or that good BVC students do badly academically. I think your undergrad grades are quite a good indication of how you will perform at LLM level. The reason being that they tend to be quite similar in structure mainly classes and exams with one dissertation in most LLM programmes. There could be a hundred factors that influence grades and no doubt the admissions tutors will take whatever yours are into account. I certainly was not taught by PhD students in Cambridge and seriously doubt that it would happen in LSE or UCL. Would I admit you to Oxbridge, LSE, UCL or Harvard - NO, in my opinion your grades aren't sufficient and your attitude is appalling. We are working within an academic system and decisions are based on academic criteria that is your grades. You mightn't like that fact but well that's the way it is. However as I stated given work experience over a number of years I would probably be more likely to offer you a place. I also think that massive LLM classes are part of the problem again letting in people who apply but aren't really up to academic standard. Luckily I will never have to make that decision as I have no intention of going into academia.

Easy boys, easy. Look, here's the bottom line of the whole thing: your grades are more often than not a determining factor on whether you get into a university or not. One Admissions officer might look at your grades and toss your application away without looking at anything else, that's a reality. However Yellow, that is not to say that Ozman does not have any chance of making it into a good university with his 2:2, and I think your assertion that you would not allow him into Harvard or Oxbridge merely on that basis, is unfounded and might be inaccurate of the attitude of those universities. You yourself admitted that many other factors could exist that influence the grades that one gets, and if you apply Ozman, you will then know for sure either way, won't you?

well appaling attitude.. why do you say that... is it because i got a 2.2 so that makes my attitude appaling by default. Listen i am naturally annoyed because i could not get into a good university on short notice as i had a fully funded scholarship an d i cant untilise it... and i wanted some advice as to how to improve my chances or ensure that i get into a good uni... i didnt need advice that "you have a 2.2 so screw you"...great academics do not always become good lawyers... i want to go into corporate practice and therefore i want to specialise in that particular field... but naturally i want to go into a good university... yellow im sorry that you feel my attitude was appaling... but i think your OPINIONS were nothing but snobbish and unconsiderate...

The reason I said you have an appalling attitude was because firstly you seemed to imply that because you had funding universities should automatically consider you extremly late application and secondly you have been rude to me from the get go. You asked for an opinion on your chances of getting into those specific universities and I gave you one. You also seem to have lost completely the distintion between academics and practitioners.
"great academics do not always become good lawyers... " however great academics do become great LLM students. In the interests of those in your situation who do genuinely want constructive advice on this issue I would say obviously get the best references you can. Try and show that your study thus far and your LLM are moving in a focused direction. If you have decent grades in commercial subjects and that's what you want to do emphasis this if there is a personal statement involved or get your referee to emphasis it. As in while X may have been weak in contract law he showed a real talent for IP. If you can get particularly good work experience in the course of the year do - judicial internships or work with NGOs (for Human Rights courses) - that sort of thing will be well regarded. If possible talk to some of your lecturers who may be able to advise you. Also consider doing something else for a longer period if possible. Work experience over a number of years does mitigate a less than stellar academic record and some amazing US law schools actually require at least two years. Finally consider as wide a range of universities as possible. Yes I went to Cambridge but I applied to 5 or 6 places, some of which were not rated nearly as highly, all of which I would have been happy to go to. There are a lot of universities in the UK with a good reputation in particular fields and you may find that some of them are easier to get into than the London ones. In this case I would say why not also apply to Nottingham and some of the Scottish universities?

thankyou yellow... this was exactly the kind of advice i was looking for... and i appreciate your views as to what i should do... i do have offers from warwick and bristol and even queen marry... i personally favour warwick... however you mentioned scottish uniz as well... so i presume you have done more research than me... how would you rate warwick as compared to bristol and queen marry... i do realise they are no where near the big four( oxbridge, ucl and lse) however i do feel that doing an llm now and then working for 3 years and then applying to top universities will substantially increase my chances... what do you say? i know warwick and bristol are regularly in the top ten... although queen marry is uni of london... but i do realise its not tht gr8 especially since the inter collegiate degree has finished... further as a condition of this scholarship i either have to teach in a national law university in pakistan or work for the government in some other respect... i feel either way that this would substantially increase my chances of a great llm.... this time i do really want your advice( please no 2.2... LOL! and this time i say this with a positive attitude :-)).. my bias against oxbridge grads is because of my bad experiences with them... some of my professors are from oxbridge.. and all they have ever done is to put me down...

Queen Mary was actually one of the ones I applied to and in certain subjects notably IT it has a great reputation. The problem with Bristol and Warwick is that they don't seem to have great reputations for graduate level work. I didn't apply to either but I would point out that I didn't specialise in commercial law. I also would say that assuming you can afford London prices it's quite a good idea to be based there because so much of the legal world in the UK revolves around London which would presumably afford you chances to get other experiences such as going to public lectures etc. I would see which will defer because then you can apply to the others and see what happens. I'm not clear as to your question regarding working and then applying. If you mean doing an LLM at University x, then working for a number of years and applying to Oxbridge or Ivy League, I know Cambridge rarely if ever accepts candidates on this basis but I imagine that US universities would be ok with it given that they place more emphasis on experience. I certainly think that you can't lose anything by trying.

yes that is exactly what i meant that i can do an llm now cuz its free and why would i miss this opportunity... qmul is good no doubt... but as i said earlier that it has recently gone down a bit... i have also applied to soas so keeping my fingers crossed... soas is mostly known for islamic and asian based law... although i am from Pakistan and i would imagine that its not a bad field to specialise in... but then you see a career in islamic law would essentially be academic based... do you have any knowledge whether soas is good for any other subjects...i do understand your point about cambridge... and i do suppose that oxbridge will always rely on grades... and to be honest i would rather go to a US school after already having done a UK llm... the thing with my scholarship is and why i was so dissapointed after not getting into ucl was that i have to go for an llm this year.. as in 2007 this is a condition of the scholarship... well for my llm the fee would be completely paid and i would be getting 750 pounds per month as living expenses.... its not ideal for london but i guess if i work part time i should survive... which were the other schools that you applied to... and what were your reasons...

I know absolutely nothing about SOAS. I applied to LSE, QMUL, Edinburgh, Trinity College Dublin and Queens Belfast. Mainly I applied to schools that had either good reputations (Cambridge, LSE, Edinburgh, Trinity) or were good in IT law (QMUL, Queens) as it happened I ended up in a place that didn't do IT law at all but by the time I made my final decision I had done a year of Public International Law which I hadn't done when I applied so I was happy to specialise in it. I think if it was a choice between going to UCL next year without funding or QMUL this year with I would go to QMUL. In fact I know that I would. One of the things to bear in mind is that having received funding is a cv bonus. On the other hand given that their are restrictions on what you have to do afterwards (ie teach or work in government) that would seem to make a decision that bit more difficult because it is a longer term commitment. Were you simply too late for UCL or was there another reason because while I'm sure they don't encourage it a nice admissions person might let you know why you didn't get offered a place. At least then if it was down to something you could change you know that you have a year to improve your chances.

Yes i do feel that rejecting the funding would not be such a good decision, well as for ucl i sent them my application and material by email, as there was absolutely no time, i got in touch with Prof. Micheal Bridge, who WAS the dean, it was his last day when i called. He was co-operative and so were some of the other professors, however one of the ladies i spoke to in the administration, that is the graduate office people were not so pleasant, i explained to them again and again that i would have applied in time for sure but i j didnt know that firstly i would get this scholarship and that secondly i will have to go on such short notice. After my constant begging they did decide to consider me, however they rejected me within 6 days WITHOUT giving me a reason, yes i only sent one reference, but my personal tutor on the BVC was on holiday and i had told them that i would provide that second reference shortly. Well this is what happened.

Good Morning Ozman,

I remember that speaking directly with the admissions folks at the institutions I applied for JD admission was a valuable endeavor. I was (am?) a "non-traditional" applicant, and these conversations helped me set my sights appropriately, and give me insight into what experience I should pursue in order to improve my position. Perhaps visiting the institutions that most interest you, and speaking with the decision makers would help give you a more complete picture of the challenge. If you do this, I think many of us would be insterested in your experience.

Cheers,

Paul

Paul i would love to do that... however currently i am in Pakistan, and hopefully i should be able to pursue an llm at QMUL soon... if i do goto london... meeting admissions tutors at lse, kings and ucl will be on the top of my agenda... and i will definitely share my experiences with you...

I'm in the opposite position respect with the ones who wrote before...

I have good marks and hopefully I'll graduate "cum laude" which is the highest grad you can obtain in Italy. I partecipate as a competitor at the international rounds of the jessup international law moot court competion...
But on the other hand, I don't have any kind of working experiences, no awards (they do not exist here), no publications (unfortunatly here it's impossible to publicate something if you're not graduate).

Do you think I have possiblities to be admitted at Cam or Ox?

Generally for Oxbridge the botton line is grades. If you have high enough grades other things become less relevant. There are certainly people who don't have awards, publications or work experience although I would at least try and get some of the latter if possible. Make sure you have good references and a good score on whatever English requirement they have and you probably have a good chance. (I would just point out I have no idea how the Italian system works or what your grades are equivalent to so maybe an Italian can help there)

Thanks for your replay...

Unfortunatly, I'm still studiyng, and I wont get my degree before March... at that time it will be too late to add working experiences on my already sent application :(
I'm going to apply for some internships (UNICITRAL, WTO and so on...), but I wont know the results at the time of sending my ll.m. applications.
Do you think it would be somehow helpful to talk about that in the personal statement? Which is the relevance of "motivation" in the candidates selection?

I'm sorry if I ask you too many things (I know I can be boring!) but I've never prepared an application before and it's getting me quite nervous!

I would see if you can get hold of a lecturer who is prepared to look over your application form. I know that it can be difficult to find someone who is prepared to do that and sometimes when they do they can be less than helpful - I have had one awful experience in that regard - but they should be able to give you a fair idea if it is a good application. I definately think it's worth saying that you have applied for some internships, why you have applied for them and how you feel your LLM will also fit in with those plans. I think motivation is really important and feel it tipped the balance in my application given that my grades were good but not amazing. On a broader point (and please don't think that this is a personal rebuke because I think it is something that applies to many applicants) everyone should at least try to get some sort of legal experience during your college life. Even if it is only doing legal admin. If not in term time then in the summer. Most firms and other organisations take on summer staff and it is really worth trying to get something. I don't think it is strictly speaking neccessary for an LLM, and I know many people at Cambridge do not have much experience before their LLM, but in making longer term plans it is so worthwhile having an insight into law in practice (that isn't based on Boston Legal!). I felt the thing that resulted in my offer was that I had done a number of things as an undergrad that lead on one from the other as if they formed a sort of plan. The truth is they really didn't at the time but well I was lucky!

I completly agree with you... unfortunatly, we have exams until the end of july and for all september, and that makes very difficult to find time to dedicate to other activities...
Thanks for your advice about proposing them a "plan", it will be helpful in preparing my statement... and I hope to be as lucky as you!