Hello,

I work in the HR department of a major law firm in London and I would like to give some useful informations in order to choose the right LLM.

When I recruit a young graduate I must choose in fixed lists (nearly the same lots of firms):

International commercial and business law: LSE, UCL, Aberdeen, Durham, kCL.

International tax law: LSE, UCL, KCL, Aberdeen

Commercial law: LSE, UCL, KCL, Edinburgh, Aberdeen/

European law: Durham, Birmingham, LSE, Aberdeen, Edinburgh.

Of course, Oxford and Cambridge are the best universities.

However, when you will make a decision you should bear in mind this ranking.

Yours faithfully

Hi george,

Any inputs regarding LLM from Queen Mary and Warwick?
Also, how are international students (outside EU) adjudged if they have a good LLB and LLM from a reputed Law School in the UK?

Cheers!

Hello George and Shil,
I' m actually in quite a dilema, should i go for the brand name or the program. Some quite great universities have a general llm program, and others less known but also quite good have a more focused program.
Personnaly, i think the brand name is quite unfair, but that' s the way the world turns, I' m thinking on applying to a llm next year, but i'm more interested in the program concentration and less in the Brand-name ranking.
Apart from the brand-name of a university and the student's grade, what else gets the potential employer to make the deal with a llm lawyer? Does the choice of the program count? Or does everybody follow the brand-name leader?

The input from George is a good insight. and be grateful for it.......

However, as aspiring Lawyers,you should not necessarily accept this as general "evidence"...

Why not think about these questions?

1) Does George work for an American Partnership or European Partnership?
2) Is it a large firm or boutique?
3) What's the bias of the partners?
4) Do they have offices in London only or in Brussels or the Netherlands?
etc etc.etc

Hello,

Thanks for the info. I appreciate your ranking very much.

However, I didn't quite understand the part about Oxbridge. The universities are not in your list. How would an LLM graduate (commercial law) from oxbridge be perceived in comparison with LSE, UCL, Aberdeen, Durham, KCL ?

Hi,

in order to give more accurate informations I will describe the methodology and aswer to your questions.

I come from Canada where I graduated from McGill (Montreal). I did my LLM at LSE then a MBA at the university of Durham to be more specific.

I work now in London for a major American law firm with offices in Paris, New York, Brussels etc...
My area of expertise is :international business law, M§A, competition law, commercial law.

Why these Uni in my rankings?

About Oxford and Cambridge: If you have already a LLB from these universities, it might interesting to undertake a LLM elsewhere (but absolutely not necessary).
If you come from a foreign country, well, it is the "top" if you are accepted at Oxbrige. In a word, do not hesitate.
I always prefer a graduate from a foreign country which has already a specialism in his first degree (for instance a LLB, a JD, or a French maitrise in European law) ans Mjur from Oxford for instance than other candidates.

However, if you are not accepted at Oxbridge, If will comment my rankings it should help you:

LSE: An incredible international networks. Lots of very good links with big firms (with my firm too).

Aberdeen: I really do not understand the Guardian or the times...this university is strongly established in the city. A very good fame in oil and gas law as well as international commercial law. In the department of energy of my firm they all come from Aberdeen.

UCL and KCL: A very good choice but internationally thet are less known than LSE.

Edinburgh: An amazing university. LLM are considered as very good especially in commercial law. Personnally I appreciate this university.

Durham: as a graduate from the MBA of Durham I love university. The department is one of the most beautiful I have ever seen. Furthermore the department of law is well considered especially in European legal studies and international trade and commercial law.

What can I conclude in order to help you?

If you can, go to Oxbridge. If you can't, i advise to bear in mind my rankings.

I will come back probably on friday on this site. Until this date
do not hesitate to ask questions, i will try to answer them.

yours truly

Hi Geogre:

I am a US licensed attorney that has been practicing for about nine years in Los Angeles at an international firm. I am trying to decide whether to accept an offer from LSE for the LLM program. In your opinion, would someone with almost ten years of US legal experience be more or less marketable in Europe and/or America after completing a LLM at LSE? Would you suggest any specialty LLM?

Thank you for your time and I look forward to your response.

Hi all,

First of all George, cheers for starting off this informative post. Some thoughts and queries:

@George - Could you please give us an idea about Queen Mary London? Heard quite good things about it yet somehow the 'glamour' seems to be missing. What are the viewpoints of the professionals in the industry? Also, how would you rate McGill for LLM?

@Sophie - Personally I feel that 'brand name' of Unis and reputation of individual courses are kinda synonymous in the UK although some might disagree with me on this one.

@mimcho - Personally speaking I would do a commercial law LLM from Oxbridge over any other Uni in the UK any day (but thats just me)

Cheers!

Cheers!

Hi everyone,

This board is getting quite interesting!!!!

I graduated from Law school in Brussels and plan to do a llm in 2006 in the US. Though it is a bit different form the UK, i thank George for his insights. But the rule is most of the time to go to a well-known university, a brand-name. But sometimes you do have good universities with a less known name that have great programs. I personnaly think they should do a llm ranking for each program.
though i' m not oblivious to george and Shil' s message, go for the brand-name...

Dera George,

Thanks for you time and expert comments, it is truly appreciated. You have made this bord one of the most interesting.

I have 3 questions:

1. Does your ranking mean that other universities with fairly good reputation (e.g. Nottingham, Warwick, Bristol) are not to be considered by major law firms in London at all?

2. To what extent do you consider the grade of the LLM (pass, merit, distinction) or only the institution is the factor that prevails?

3. To what extent do you consider what subjects of the LLM have been taken by the candidate? E.g., can anyone get into a major law firm by attending human rights course in Cambridge and then later - having changed his/her mind - opting for a commercial law career?

Thank you very much indeed.

Truly yours,

Hi,


Jack: Your profile is highly interesting. Why do you want to move in Europe? Do you still want to work for your firm in Europe or do you want to change? What is your main area of expertise? What i your academic backround?
In effect with your experience I do not think you really need a LLM. However tell me more.

Shil: I do not really know Queen Mary. Probably good in IT (I am not qualified in this area but a friend told me that Queen Mary was known for that...). It is not my first choice as you konw. You should bear in mind that a year in London is expensive. Your LLM must boost your carreer. If you spent ten lines in your cover letter to explain what is your university or ten minutes with to explain it to a recruiter you miss the point.

About McGill it is a very good law school in Canada and North America with very specific areas (eg: law of the space...). It is less interesting if you want to work in Europe (When I worked in Paris 10 years ago they believed it was a Scottish university....)

Gregory: Notthingham, Bristol or Warwick are good universities. However they are below in the rankings of my firm. I usually consider LLM in 3 groups:

*First group: Oxbridge

*2nd group: LSE, UCL, KCL, Durham, Aberdeen, Edinburgh,
Birmingham

*3rd group:Warwick, Bristol, Nottingham, Essex, Dundee, Glasgow/Strathclyde.

I never read applications from other LLM in the UK...
Honestly if you do not have a LLM from "at least" these universities I prefer a good LLB graduate or a LLM from an Unknown American university. Remember that a LLM is supposed to boost your carreer. LLM=marketing.

Furthermore I hate candidates for instance in Human Rights that apply for a job in competition law....I am ruthless towards them.

Do not hesitate to ask more questions ( please describe your profile, studies etc...it is part of my job to detect high profiles...)

yours truly

George:

Thanks for your insight. I will attempt to answer some of your questions. I have a US undergraduate and US law school degree. I have focused my practice primarily on US labor and employment matters since 1996 at a top 30 law firm. I have always had an interest to live and work in Europe and to gain some knowledge about international law. I thought a LLM from LSE would provide me with the academic background needed to better understand international law, as well as allow me to (hopefully) gain access to the European job market. I am in the process of securing a leave of absence from my firm, with the hope that I can do some part-time work for our London office.

To me, it seems like a no lose proposition. Am I mising something? What are your thoughts?

I forgot to mention that I would love to continue working for my firm in Europe or the US. Hopefully, the LLM, with a focus on international law, will broaden my caseload and allow me to expand my practice.

George,

I have a LLM from sweden and right now i work as a lawyer at a (on the national level) well known but rather small comercial law firm i Stockholm, Sweden. I work mainly with real estate transactions in a Swedish context but, due to the size of the firm, also with other areas of law. In order to gain access to the international job market I am investigating the possibility of an international LLM. As real estate transactions tend to be rather national in legal terms (even if the clients are international) I do not know what specialisation I should go for. Would International Business Law be a good option and (maybe most importantly) do you think a LLM would make it possible to get a job at an international law firm in London with my background in mainly national swedish law?

Hi George,

Thanks for the valuable info.

Some more questions if you dont mind:

- When you select LLM students of foreign origin do you require them to take the QLTT?
- What is the ratio of acceptance of LLM students to jobs at your firm? How many applications do you get yearly, and how many of those do you accept?
- How many of the accepted candidates do come form Oxbridge or LSE and how many from other unis. How does this ratio look like in terms of submitted applications?
- Is it possible at all that a candidate from an uni of a lower group will get the place overtaking an Oxbridge candidate?
- What is the proper time during the year of LLM-study to apply to firms?

Thank you very much,

Hello George,
thanks a lot for starting off this site! I've just graduated (First State Examination, Germany), and before doing a doctorate and the Second State Examination, I'd like to go for an LLM. I received an offer from KCL, however, I'm not really sure whether to accept it. Since I want to become an entertainment lawyer, I'm also considering the Entertainment Law programme at the University of Westminster and the Sports Law programme at Nottingham Trent. Of course, they don't appear anywhere in your ranking... Again, "brand name" or specialization, that is the question. Do you think a law firm with emphasis on entertainment law would rather employ someone from King's or someone with more in-depth knowledge on entertainment law from a less famous university?
Thanks a lot, I hope our questions don't become too boring.

Hi, the question about foreign students is of particular interest to me: I got my master in France, and I have been accepted to the UCL LL.M. (I have not heard from LSE and Cambrdige yet). I am a non-EU national and have not got the FRench bar. Do you think that I could find a job in the UK after my LL.M.? Thanks a lot for your time and your help, George.

Hi George,

I will get my LLB in a Shanghai university which probably has the best law school in East China. And I've got the offer of a UCL LLM. My ideal prospective job is to work in a international law firm. Just as you said, I want to do an llm mainly for the booming of career, either in London or Shanghai.

However, I am kinda regret not considering US law schools, for a English LLM doesn't qualify to sit the bar exam of England and Wales while the US llm graduates can take NY or California Bar exam.

So I would like to know that would you consider the bar qualifications when recruting foreign llm students who probably don't have the English qualification? What is helpful if you want to recruite somebody to work in Shanghai, an English Bar qualification, or a Chinese one, or both? (Though currently, foreign law firms in China are not allowed to employ Chinese lawyers.)

Cheers,
Anthony

Jack: I'm in a similar "predicament". I hold an American undergraduate and JD (1998); have been practicing labor/employment law for 7 years in the US with a national firm. I was accepted to UCL for an LLM; unfortunately, LSE rejected me :-(
The LLM is easily a $40,000 investment when you factor in how expensive London is to live; I'm not sure if there is a direct return on our investment, or how marketable the LLM will make us to a London law firm. Perhaps the London branch of an American firm would be interested in hiring us, given our expertise in American law, and then UK LLM. Since your firm actually has a London office, it sounds like you're in better shape than I am.....if I were you, I'd go for it!!
Brian

Hello, George:

Thank you for your post which introducing the ranking of these universities and I am soooooooooooo glad that you can mention the university of Durham, since I have received the offer from it for its international trade and commercial law course.

However, there are several questions I would like to get some suggestions from you, I think you advices will be so valuable for me and people who wants to go there too.

This first is the course of Durham university i.e. international trade and commercial law, which has been, introduced only 3years ago. To some extent, which gives me an impression that, the course is not so well established when compares with the other universities. What is your opinion about this? Do you think it can provide a student with the knowledge and skills, which will benefit them after their graduation?

Secondly, Unlike the other universities Durham university has no its own commercial law center, so I wonder dose Durham university weigh its interests on international trade and commercial law? And if not why you viewed Durham so high only because you are a graduate of it?

Thirdly, if one university wants to provide the teaching of international trade and commercial law course it must has closely links with commercial and trade law firms since this kind of course is more practical than any other law courses such as constitutional law or something else. Do you think Durham University has any good relationships with any law firms?

The last one is Durham is well respected in the UK, nonetheless, in the other countries few people have even heard of it, do you think going to this university will put you under some disadvantages while going to some famous ones such as Manchester university will put you forward.

Im sorry to complicate you with so many questions and I am looking forward that you could come here. Thank you

Best wishes

Allen