Oxford MJur v. Cambridge LL.M.


roses
Hi all! Will the lovely and resourceful people here share their thoughts on Oxford MJur v. Cambridge LL.M. ^_^ ?

Could you share thoughts on

: Strengths on particular subject areas or courses
(e.g. A generalization that Ox for jurisprudence, Cam for public international law etc. holds true still?)

: The sense of prestige or the "wow" factor
(e.g. when you walk into a room of lawyers and non-lawyers from around the globe, is it Oxford or Cambridge that give more vibe)

: Academic set up
(e.g. tutorials only at Ox? Is it good or bad?)

: Lifestyle
(They are both pretty places to live and study, isn't it?)

: Alumni
(Is it true that Oxford as an institution has a stronger network of world leaders in all areas?)

Etc.

Thanks!!!
Hi all! Will the lovely and resourceful people here share their thoughts on Oxford MJur v. Cambridge LL.M. ^_^ ?

Could you share thoughts on

: Strengths on particular subject areas or courses
(e.g. A generalization that Ox for jurisprudence, Cam for public international law etc. holds true still?)

: The sense of prestige or the "wow" factor
(e.g. when you walk into a room of lawyers and non-lawyers from around the globe, is it Oxford or Cambridge that give more vibe)

: Academic set up
(e.g. tutorials only at Ox? Is it good or bad?)

: Lifestyle
(They are both pretty places to live and study, isn't it?)

: Alumni
(Is it true that Oxford as an institution has a stronger network of world leaders in all areas?)

Etc.

Thanks!!!
quote
Dutchman
In the red corner... Oxford, in the blue corner, Cambridge...

Seriously man, this post really doesn't make sense, and - considering the way you asked your questions - I think you probably know that quite well ("wow" factor? C'mon...).

I guess this will only end up in fans of one of these universities telling you that their programme is the one and only or clearly superior, so - imho - this thread really is a big waste of time.
In the red corner... Oxford, in the blue corner, Cambridge...

Seriously man, this post really doesn't make sense, and - considering the way you asked your questions - I think you probably know that quite well ("wow" factor? C'mon...).

I guess this will only end up in fans of one of these universities telling you that their programme is the one and only or clearly superior, so - imho - this thread really is a big waste of time.
quote
jim
I think it would be interesting to know which program is the easiest to get into. Has anyone been rejected from the one program and been accpeted to the other? Or usually people who get accepted in Ox get also accepted in Cambridge?
I think it would be interesting to know which program is the easiest to get into. Has anyone been rejected from the one program and been accpeted to the other? Or usually people who get accepted in Ox get also accepted in Cambridge?
quote
Hope this will help you. I had a choice and I picked Cambridge.
1. Wow factor
Depends what type of law/career you want to get in. Cambridge has a reputation of being more "quantitative" school with better concentration on science and related subjects (such as finance, economics, real estate) while Oxford is perceived to be better in "soft" subjects (sociology, philosophy)
Hence, Cambridge has a better reputation in investment banking and PE and Oxford - marketing, consulting
2. Cambridge is a nicer place to leave - more scenic, less traffic, greener etc. It is also a smaller city.
3. BCL has a higher reputation among lawyers than LLM BUT if you decide to switch to, say, investment banking you'll have more difficulty as non-lawyers know LLM as an international legal qualification. They might have a problem to understand what MJur is. Also even among certain lawyers there is a tendency to treat MJur as a second best to
BCL.
Hope this helps
Hope this will help you. I had a choice and I picked Cambridge.
1. Wow factor
Depends what type of law/career you want to get in. Cambridge has a reputation of being more "quantitative" school with better concentration on science and related subjects (such as finance, economics, real estate) while Oxford is perceived to be better in "soft" subjects (sociology, philosophy)
Hence, Cambridge has a better reputation in investment banking and PE and Oxford - marketing, consulting
2. Cambridge is a nicer place to leave - more scenic, less traffic, greener etc. It is also a smaller city.
3. BCL has a higher reputation among lawyers than LLM BUT if you decide to switch to, say, investment banking you'll have more difficulty as non-lawyers know LLM as an international legal qualification. They might have a problem to understand what MJur is. Also even among certain lawyers there is a tendency to treat MJur as a second best to
BCL.
Hope this helps
quote
On ease of getting in to:
BCL is the hardest, followed by LLM in Cam, followed by MJur.
Normally people who get into BCL and LLM, pick BCL (unless they get a scholarship from Cam), if they get to LLM and MJur they often pick LLM for the reasons I described in the previous note.
Also BCL is a harder programme work wise. You'll need to complete more modules. This is better if you want to get a job in your country of origin. It is worse if you want to get a job in the UK as it will not give you an opportunity to attends as many interviews as you would like. Most interviews take place in London and you would need to budget for necessary time
On ease of getting in to:
BCL is the hardest, followed by LLM in Cam, followed by MJur.
Normally people who get into BCL and LLM, pick BCL (unless they get a scholarship from Cam), if they get to LLM and MJur they often pick LLM for the reasons I described in the previous note.
Also BCL is a harder programme work wise. You'll need to complete more modules. This is better if you want to get a job in your country of origin. It is worse if you want to get a job in the UK as it will not give you an opportunity to attends as many interviews as you would like. Most interviews take place in London and you would need to budget for necessary time
quote
roses
Private Equity,
: your response surely makes sense, and reading constructive comments such as yours certainly is never a waste of time ^ __ ^

I would like to hear if in terms of "scenic, less traffic, greener", would you say Oxford is still nice enough? I mean I don't know the place well, but from what I gathered it is not like big crowded cities with noises and cars, or has the place turned into somewhere crowded?

You also bring up a great poing, I understand why someone might perceive BCL to be superior to MJur, given the history and fact that generally only BCL people can practice in the UK (though courses are mostly shared, I believe), but I'm more curious to see how would a general person react to Ox MJur and Cam LLM...

When you said about BCL completing more modules, does that apply to MJur as well?

Jim,
: I think you also raised another valid point, the competitive pool of classmates might give another feel, in addition to Private Equity's comment, I would be interested to hear more from other people if anyone got Cam LLM but not MJur...

thanks all for your thoughts, let's keep the discussion going!
Private Equity,
: your response surely makes sense, and reading constructive comments such as yours certainly is never a waste of time ^ __ ^

I would like to hear if in terms of "scenic, less traffic, greener", would you say Oxford is still nice enough? I mean I don't know the place well, but from what I gathered it is not like big crowded cities with noises and cars, or has the place turned into somewhere crowded?

You also bring up a great poing, I understand why someone might perceive BCL to be superior to MJur, given the history and fact that generally only BCL people can practice in the UK (though courses are mostly shared, I believe), but I'm more curious to see how would a general person react to Ox MJur and Cam LLM...

When you said about BCL completing more modules, does that apply to MJur as well?

Jim,
: I think you also raised another valid point, the competitive pool of classmates might give another feel, in addition to Private Equity's comment, I would be interested to hear more from other people if anyone got Cam LLM but not MJur...

thanks all for your thoughts, let's keep the discussion going!
quote
Hi Roses..more questions...OK, hope this will clarify things. My professional background is working for a top-3 American investment banks in London for a number of years on private equity and corporate finance sides...When I mentioned to my boss (American) that I wanted to do law, he was OK with this and asked where and what course. I told him first that I was planning to do BCL (at that stage I did not know about Mjur). He looked at me with great surprise and asked me why I needed another bachelor degree. I got the same response from 5-6 other very senior bankers (non law background, English, French, Asian and American background). When I realised that I could apply for MJur, I asked them again...The response was "what was that?". When I told them about Cam's LLM they understood it as they heard about the qualification. In fact, the Americans said said LLM was the only time of qualification they could do in the USA after JD. (or instead of JD)...

People (unless they studied in Oxbridge themselves) have no knowledge of the fact that BCL/Mjur courses can be shared. Most also assume that the same tutorial system applies for postgrads in both places. Hence, the name of the college is quite significant as people do not know that you are not taught in your college. Many believe that there is a ranking order of colleges.

LLM has only 4 modules, you can substitute one exam with a dissertation. I believe both BCL/Mjur has more modules. You may not go through them in such details as in LLM but there is more homework to do due to more subjects

Oxford is not a huge city and also green but it is significantly large than Cam. Cam's centre is pretty much pedestrianised, plus half of it is taken by the river. Oxford does have more traffic
Hi Roses..more questions...OK, hope this will clarify things. My professional background is working for a top-3 American investment banks in London for a number of years on private equity and corporate finance sides...When I mentioned to my boss (American) that I wanted to do law, he was OK with this and asked where and what course. I told him first that I was planning to do BCL (at that stage I did not know about Mjur). He looked at me with great surprise and asked me why I needed another bachelor degree. I got the same response from 5-6 other very senior bankers (non law background, English, French, Asian and American background). When I realised that I could apply for MJur, I asked them again...The response was "what was that?". When I told them about Cam's LLM they understood it as they heard about the qualification. In fact, the Americans said said LLM was the only time of qualification they could do in the USA after JD. (or instead of JD)...

People (unless they studied in Oxbridge themselves) have no knowledge of the fact that BCL/Mjur courses can be shared. Most also assume that the same tutorial system applies for postgrads in both places. Hence, the name of the college is quite significant as people do not know that you are not taught in your college. Many believe that there is a ranking order of colleges.

LLM has only 4 modules, you can substitute one exam with a dissertation. I believe both BCL/Mjur has more modules. You may not go through them in such details as in LLM but there is more homework to do due to more subjects

Oxford is not a huge city and also green but it is significantly large than Cam. Cam's centre is pretty much pedestrianised, plus half of it is taken by the river. Oxford does have more traffic
quote
Just so you all understand, I am talking about a non-lawyer/your typical corporate client perspective. Lawyers, especially Oxbridge qualified barristers, would know the difference.
Just so you all understand, I am talking about a non-lawyer/your typical corporate client perspective. Lawyers, especially Oxbridge qualified barristers, would know the difference.
quote
Bender
"LLM has only 4 modules, you can substitute one exam with a dissertation. I believe both BCL/Mjur has more modules. You may not go through them in such details as in LLM but there is more homework to do due to more subjects"

The BCL requires you to take four courses, and you can substitute one exam with a dissertation, just as with the LLM.

The BCL is not more work than the LLM because there are more required courses: it is simply more work.

I haven't taken both programs, so I'm only half-qualified to comment on this, but given that the number of required courses is the same, I doubt it's fair to say that the LLM generally goes into "greater detail" than the BCL.
"LLM has only 4 modules, you can substitute one exam with a dissertation. I believe both BCL/Mjur has more modules. You may not go through them in such details as in LLM but there is more homework to do due to more subjects"

The BCL requires you to take four courses, and you can substitute one exam with a dissertation, just as with the LLM.

The BCL is not more work than the LLM because there are more required courses: it is simply more work.

I haven't taken both programs, so I'm only half-qualified to comment on this, but given that the number of required courses is the same, I doubt it's fair to say that the LLM generally goes into "greater detail" than the BCL.
quote
Hi Bender...Since you are an Ox lad, you would know better...I thought that you have half-modules that in total amount to 4 units but, in reality, mean that there are more new subjects. Maybe I am wrong or confusing this with King College as I also looked at it as another option. If this is the case, then the syllables should not be that different - I doubt universities stray from teaching more or less the same thing. Do not forget the universities need to have a common criteria of covered materials... You might have more weekly reading to do as a result of tutorials, I guess we suppose to cover the materials independently...
Hi Bender...Since you are an Ox lad, you would know better...I thought that you have half-modules that in total amount to 4 units but, in reality, mean that there are more new subjects. Maybe I am wrong or confusing this with King College as I also looked at it as another option. If this is the case, then the syllables should not be that different - I doubt universities stray from teaching more or less the same thing. Do not forget the universities need to have a common criteria of covered materials... You might have more weekly reading to do as a result of tutorials, I guess we suppose to cover the materials independently...
quote
LLMblogger
I think only the BCL is worth choosing over the LLM at Cambridge. The MJur is known to be less competitive.
I prefer Cambridge as a city and I think that the study of law is more liberal there than the black letter approach taken by Oxford. That's why I didn't bother applying for the BCL. I knew that if I'd got in, I wouldn't have been able to turn it down.
The BCL (and maybe the MJur) is known to be more intense than the LLM. You have more contact with professors and you'll be expected to submit work throughout the year. Cambridge is more about self-study and the end of year exams. Think about what teaching model suits your personality.
As for the wow-factor, both universities are equally impressive. Cambridge is more picturesque, but I reckon you could have more fun at Oxford if you enjoy a good nightlife etc.
If money is an issue at all, BCL/MJur students get charged higher college fees, so you'd be paying about £3K extra just for your college. Plus I think the tuition fee is higher for the BCL/MJur.
If I were you, I'd pick the LLM, given the fact that you're not choosing between the LLM and the BCL, but the LLM and the MJur.
I think only the BCL is worth choosing over the LLM at Cambridge. The MJur is known to be less competitive.
I prefer Cambridge as a city and I think that the study of law is more liberal there than the black letter approach taken by Oxford. That's why I didn't bother applying for the BCL. I knew that if I'd got in, I wouldn't have been able to turn it down.
The BCL (and maybe the MJur) is known to be more intense than the LLM. You have more contact with professors and you'll be expected to submit work throughout the year. Cambridge is more about self-study and the end of year exams. Think about what teaching model suits your personality.
As for the wow-factor, both universities are equally impressive. Cambridge is more picturesque, but I reckon you could have more fun at Oxford if you enjoy a good nightlife etc.
If money is an issue at all, BCL/MJur students get charged higher college fees, so you'd be paying about £3K extra just for your college. Plus I think the tuition fee is higher for the BCL/MJur.
If I were you, I'd pick the LLM, given the fact that you're not choosing between the LLM and the BCL, but the LLM and the MJur.

quote
NewZLaw
This is an interesting discussion. I'm currently staring down offers for the Oxford BCL and the Cambridge LLM and can't make up my mind. On the one hand, Cambridge is about £5,000 cheaper than Oxford, and Cambridge as a University is consistently ranked overall higher than Oxford (e.g., http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/results). On the other hand, the BCL is a more personalised course and, despite Cambridge being ranked higher, the general perception seems to be that the BCL is more prestigious than the LLM.

So, unless you're:

- obsessed with tutorials (I can see the appeal for potential barristers, but I'm a commercial lawyer);

- have a good scholarship to either; or

- one admits you into a better college (I haven't heard from colleges yet, and don't think you hear from them before you make your choice?),

Cambridge seems to be a better choice. Yet people overall prefer Oxford. Is this just a historic thing, or are there any tangible differences I'm missing in my equations?
This is an interesting discussion. I'm currently staring down offers for the Oxford BCL and the Cambridge LLM and can't make up my mind. On the one hand, Cambridge is about £5,000 cheaper than Oxford, and Cambridge as a University is consistently ranked overall higher than Oxford (e.g., http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/results). On the other hand, the BCL is a more personalised course and, despite Cambridge being ranked higher, the general perception seems to be that the BCL is more prestigious than the LLM.

So, unless you're:

- obsessed with tutorials (I can see the appeal for potential barristers, but I'm a commercial lawyer);

- have a good scholarship to either; or

- one admits you into a better college (I haven't heard from colleges yet, and don't think you hear from them before you make your choice?),

Cambridge seems to be a better choice. Yet people overall prefer Oxford. Is this just a historic thing, or are there any tangible differences I'm missing in my equations?
quote
You are spot on. If you are a lawyer and want to remain a lawyer for the foreseable future go to Oxford because:
1. BCL is better perceived among lawyers
2. Tutorials
3. More time will be spent studying

If you are lawyer and do not want to remain a lawyer, moving to banking or similar later in the day go to Cambridge
1. Corporates and banks know what LLM is (BCL's name might be wrongly perceived)
2. Less work and more time for interviews
3. Better reputation of Cambridge among banks and corporates

If you are unsure, go to the one you get placed in a better college. If are are a foreign lawyer wanting to work abroad, go to BCL. If you are a foreign lawyer wanting to work in the UK and need time for interviews and internships, go to LLM
You are spot on. If you are a lawyer and want to remain a lawyer for the foreseable future go to Oxford because:
1. BCL is better perceived among lawyers
2. Tutorials
3. More time will be spent studying

If you are lawyer and do not want to remain a lawyer, moving to banking or similar later in the day go to Cambridge
1. Corporates and banks know what LLM is (BCL's name might be wrongly perceived)
2. Less work and more time for interviews
3. Better reputation of Cambridge among banks and corporates

If you are unsure, go to the one you get placed in a better college. If are are a foreign lawyer wanting to work abroad, go to BCL. If you are a foreign lawyer wanting to work in the UK and need time for interviews and internships, go to LLM
quote
roses
I guess there's a general agreement that Ox BCL is an easy choice to make given its reputation of rigorous teaching + tutoring method, as supposed to Cambridge LLM which lectures some hours per week, and mostly students have to study on their own for the 1 time exams at the end of the year, and no written work is required.

So since MJur is basically the same thing as BCL (only that MJur people don't take some BCL common law courses and don't later practice in the UK), would it be right to argue that Ox MJur should be considered with higher regard than Cam LLM given its rigorous nature?
I guess there's a general agreement that Ox BCL is an easy choice to make given its reputation of rigorous teaching + tutoring method, as supposed to Cambridge LLM which lectures some hours per week, and mostly students have to study on their own for the 1 time exams at the end of the year, and no written work is required.

So since MJur is basically the same thing as BCL (only that MJur people don't take some BCL common law courses and don't later practice in the UK), would it be right to argue that Ox MJur should be considered with higher regard than Cam LLM given its rigorous nature?
quote
Jenny1987
Does anyone know where I can take a look at a timetable of what an average week on the BCL is like in terms of seminars and tutorials?
Does anyone know where I can take a look at a timetable of what an average week on the BCL is like in terms of seminars and tutorials?
quote
Roses, I do not understand you. What do you want, to find out the answers or to hear that people say what you have already decided upon? If you want to do MJur - go to Oxford, entirely your choice. However, the answer to your question is a big fat NO! Mjur is considered the weakest out of the three qualifications. Cam LLM is considered superior in banking and corporate world and do not forget it is us the bankers who hire you the lawyers. If I have two lawyers coming to me - one from Cam and one from Ox, I'll hire the Cam one. Because I'll perceive him/her as being more technical and down to earth, less theory and more practical application. And before you say that this is just my opinion - well, NO again. My opinion is formed by working with other people and companies, through what my bosses said in the past, through what kind of lawyers they hired etc. The only way I would hire an Ox lawyer is if I was a barrister or into human rights and other "softer" subjects, not corporate finance, international tax etc
Roses, I do not understand you. What do you want, to find out the answers or to hear that people say what you have already decided upon? If you want to do MJur - go to Oxford, entirely your choice. However, the answer to your question is a big fat NO! Mjur is considered the weakest out of the three qualifications. Cam LLM is considered superior in banking and corporate world and do not forget it is us the bankers who hire you the lawyers. If I have two lawyers coming to me - one from Cam and one from Ox, I'll hire the Cam one. Because I'll perceive him/her as being more technical and down to earth, less theory and more practical application. And before you say that this is just my opinion - well, NO again. My opinion is formed by working with other people and companies, through what my bosses said in the past, through what kind of lawyers they hired etc. The only way I would hire an Ox lawyer is if I was a barrister or into human rights and other "softer" subjects, not corporate finance, international tax etc
quote
roses
I however understand you, Private Equity, your answer to my last question is no, for the same reasons you already stated earlier, and thanks for restating your thoughts.

I was just hoping to hear other thoughts, I apologise if that wasn't implicit or clearly stated ^___^

Have a good day!
I however understand you, Private Equity, your answer to my last question is no, for the same reasons you already stated earlier, and thanks for restating your thoughts.

I was just hoping to hear other thoughts, I apologise if that wasn't implicit or clearly stated ^___^

Have a good day!
quote
LLMblogger
I agree with Private Equity's comments - the ranking (in terms of prestige) is:
BCL
LLM
MJur
If you want more work though, choose the MJur.
I agree with Private Equity's comments - the ranking (in terms of prestige) is:
BCL
LLM
MJur
If you want more work though, choose the MJur.

quote
Bar-Ney
OK, I've got into both the BCL and the LLM. I have a scholarship for cambridge not for oxford and want to be a barrister. is the bcl really so much better that i should turn down the scholarship? i went to an ex-poly and want to get this decision right so as to maximise cv benefit.

i know this has been touched on before, but any new opinions would be much appreciated.
OK, I've got into both the BCL and the LLM. I have a scholarship for cambridge not for oxford and want to be a barrister. is the bcl really so much better that i should turn down the scholarship? i went to an ex-poly and want to get this decision right so as to maximise cv benefit.

i know this has been touched on before, but any new opinions would be much appreciated.
quote
Hi Bar
No, the difference is not that great for you to reject the scholarship. It takes sometime for newby barristers to make serious money, do not get yourself in debt unnecessarily.
The only thing - what colleges did you get in? Some barristers are very picky on this. For example, Downing in Cam is considered a law college. Hence, If you get to Merton in Oxford and Huges Hall in Cam you might have something to think about, otherwise do not bother.
Hi Bar
No, the difference is not that great for you to reject the scholarship. It takes sometime for newby barristers to make serious money, do not get yourself in debt unnecessarily.
The only thing - what colleges did you get in? Some barristers are very picky on this. For example, Downing in Cam is considered a law college. Hence, If you get to Merton in Oxford and Huges Hall in Cam you might have something to think about, otherwise do not bother.
quote

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