Quick general question.

How possible is it to get onto a Masters program at a 'top' institution (by which I mean Oxbridge, LSE, UCL, maybe Kings) if your undergraduate degree is from a 'bad' university, but your grades are excellent? My module average is a little over 80% so far after one year but my university is not recognised as reputable (although I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with it).

Hoping someone has relevant personal experience to share. My long-term goal is to become a lecturer, principally interested in restitution and the commercial side of the law of trusts. But I'm a bit worried that I won't get chance to advance my academic career because no decent Masters programme will look at me!

What do you mean bad? Name it.

Regardless of how bad you think it is, you're still good! The application is seen as a whole, the University's name won't be the decisive factor. Sure, it is one thing to do your undergrad at LSE or Durham and quite another to do it at East Anglia.

Build your profile and application and you'll be ok. You don't try, you can't succeed!

Well, I don't want to say exactly which university but it's nowhere near the calibre of UEA!

What should I do to build my profile apart from continuing to get good grades? The University doesn't even organise moots or I would love to get into those. It doesn't have a student law review or I would write articles for that. Is there anything I can do beyond the usual, VCs, minis, FRU after 2nd year?

Hi Mark W,

Sadly, it is hard to give advice when it is not clear which university you are from, although it is understandable that you don't want to risk identification.

I would say that, as long as you have a first class degree, you would have a shot with Oxbridge, but it is by no means a guarantee. A first is a minimum requirement for them, and they can't take everyone. But, that being said, you shouldn't be deterred from applying on the basis of your undergraduate university, there is always a chance.

With the grades that you have, I would say that you had a pretty good chance of getting in to universities like UCL and Kings, so it is definititely worth a shot. UCL have a rolling application system for LLM where they look at their applications on a first come first served basis. You would be well advised to get your application in early if you were concerned about your chances, just to be sure!

I would say that Vac Schemes, minis etc hold very little sway in terms of applying for academic courses, if I am honest with you. It is advisable to do them in case you end up in practice, but they are not really going to be looked at by the likes of Oxbridge or UCL - they want strong academics, and proof that you are interested in the areas that you say you are.

That being said, I would suggest that your time would be better spent doing an undergraduate dissertation in one of the areas that you are interested in.

Also, there are several organisations outside of universities who conduct socio-legal, and/or philosophical debates. If your university does not offer that kind of service to you, I would advise that you find an appropriate organisation externally where you could bolster your extra-curriculars.

I do hope that this helps, and best of luck for the future,

Procedurelle

Thanks for your response, it is very helpful.

I will definitely try and do an undergraduate dissertation, although I might end up doing it and getting it marked 'for fun'; because of the way the course is structured doing a dissertation as part of the 360 credits would mean missing out on the best optional modules.

Maybe the best thing to do would just be to try and set up these organisations that my university is missing - mooting/debating/student law review etc - I'm sure there must be others who would also want to be involved! And make sure that I keep averaging 80%+ so that I stand out a bit from some of the other candidates from non-Russell group universities.

Didn't know that about UCL - it's one that I will definitely by applying for so I'll make sure I check when applications open and get in as soon as possible in my final year. Cheers!

In that case, if I were you, I'd do one of the two, ideally both.

1. Go study abroad, Germany or Netherlands. Either as exchange student or, see below
2. Go for a master's degree in associated stuff, but not LLM. Try and MA or MSc.

Study hard on your MA/MSc and you'll definitely boost your LLM chances!

to tell you the truth, as this goes for employment as well as a LL.M, it does not matter which University you went to. At the end of the day, it is the grade you got.

And let me tell you something, if you got a distinction, no one really cares which university you went to.

For example, im doing my LL.M at an extremely reputable university, and everyone with me did get good grades, but from a whole range of universities. some i've never even heard of.

I strongly disagree, and for obvious reasons. If you think grades alone means much you went thru law school for nothing :) - no offence.

And the LLM for sure certainly won't do much good for career. It's a definite plus for your portfolio, but, for employment purposes an MBA is far better to have than an LLM.

You don't know a lot of things, such as, for instance, Harvard LLM and Cambridge LLM grads who have a hard time finding an appropriate job. Realistically speaking, you're better of doing a Tax LLM as opposed to a traditional LLM, and you're certainly better off doing a LLM at Columbia University rather than an LLM at who-knows-no-man's-land university

I strongly disagree, and for obvious reasons. If you think grades alone means much you went thru law school for nothing :) - no offence.

And the LLM for sure certainly won't do much good for career. It's a definite plus for your portfolio, but, for employment purposes an MBA is far better to have than an LLM.

You don't know a lot of things, such as, for instance, Harvard LLM and Cambridge LLM grads who have a hard time finding an appropriate job. Realistically speaking, you're better of doing a Tax LLM as opposed to a traditional LLM, and you're certainly better off doing a LLM at Columbia University rather than an LLM at who-knows-no-man's-land university

Listen, P, I don't mean any disrespect, however your advice is the worst you can give.

I reasonably assume I have more education and experience than you (which means chances are that I'm way wiser than you :-) ) so listen to me, and listen closely. Nowadays, regardless of the area you want to work (be it private practice, diplomacy, academia, etc), you have to show not only a good academic background but also something else.

If you care to open your eyes wide enough to understand what I said to Mark, you'll probably be better off. He said he wanted to go on for an LLM degree. Then, he'll most likely want to get into a PhD, because this is what most European academics do. They become Doctors (as opposed to US academics where JD is the rule, and SJD/PhD folks are the exception).

First off, that's a hell of a task coming from a Uni that he says it's "bad". And he won't even give the name. As if he can get into trouble for even saying that. There's no legal claim against him if he says the Uni's bad, nor is there another claim. There a thingy called democracy/freedom of speech. And University regulations certainly punish plagiarism but not statements such as "my uni is bad" :)))))

Second, with the huge number of applicants to top LLM programs at Cam, Ox, UCL, LSE, Durham, he won't stand a chance as long as he doesn't jump off the page.

I advised him to make a name of himself and go abroad and even get an MA or MSc, IN ORDER TO STRENGTHEN his future LL.M. application.

RE: Dissertation - a) Dissertation is nothing. It's an undergrad. Almost nobody cares unless it's so amazing that it gets published right away (0.0001% chance). b) A LL.M. by Research dissertation or a PhD dissertation is another thing, don't confuse the two (a and b).

As for your points:
# "It is certainly out of the blue and out of context to start suggesting doing a masters in Germany or the Netherlands, and doing a non-legal masters." I can only say you're unidirectional. Ever heard of something called interdisciplinary?

Do you have ANY ideas how many undergrad law students want to join the academia and build a career in law research and teaching? Surely hundreds all over UK, and tens of those coming from Oxbridge. And Mark doesn't stand a single chance compared to them, sorry Mark, but that's the truth.

An MA/MSc from continental Europe or UK would help Mark a lot. Not directly to become a lecturer, but indirectly, that is, it will help him get into a top LLM program (provided he performs good!). Think outside the box, P!

# "Mark W - keep doing what you are doing and you will have a chance of getting into a good university for LLM". I keep on laughing about this "keep doing what you are doing". It is, by far, the smartest advice ever.

Next time you want to question my judgement or advice, think again. Thanks :)

Relax man.....

Like you said, "There a thingy called democracy/freedom of speech." Let P say what he wants.

Listen, P, I don't mean any disrespect, however your advice is the worst you can give.

I reasonably assume I have more education and experience than you (which means chances are that I'm way wiser than you :-) ) so listen to me, and listen closely. Nowadays, regardless of the area you want to work (be it private practice, diplomacy, academia, etc), you have to show not only a good academic background but also something else.

If you care to open your eyes wide enough to understand what I said to Mark, you'll probably be better off. He said he wanted to go on for an LLM degree. Then, he'll most likely want to get into a PhD, because this is what most European academics do. They become Doctors (as opposed to US academics where JD is the rule, and SJD/PhD folks are the exception).

First off, that's a hell of a task coming from a Uni that he says it's "bad". And he won't even give the name. As if he can get into trouble for even saying that. There's no legal claim against him if he says the Uni's bad, nor is there another claim. There a thingy called democracy/freedom of speech. And University regulations certainly punish plagiarism but not statements such as "my uni is bad" :)))))

Second, with the huge number of applicants to top LLM programs at Cam, Ox, UCL, LSE, Durham, he won't stand a chance as long as he doesn't jump off the page.

I advised him to make a name of himself and go abroad and even get an MA or MSc, IN ORDER TO STRENGTHEN his future LL.M. application.

RE: Dissertation - a) Dissertation is nothing. It's an undergrad. Almost nobody cares unless it's so amazing that it gets published right away (0.0001% chance). b) A LL.M. by Research dissertation or a PhD dissertation is another thing, don't confuse the two (a and b).

As for your points:
# "It is certainly out of the blue and out of context to start suggesting doing a masters in Germany or the Netherlands, and doing a non-legal masters." I can only say you're unidirectional. Ever heard of something called interdisciplinary?

Do you have ANY ideas how many undergrad law students want to join the academia and build a career in law research and teaching? Surely hundreds all over UK, and tens of those coming from Oxbridge. And Mark doesn't stand a single chance compared to them, sorry Mark, but that's the truth.

An MA/MSc from continental Europe or UK would help Mark a lot. Not directly to become a lecturer, but indirectly, that is, it will help him get into a top LLM program (provided he performs good!). Think outside the box, P!

# "Mark W - keep doing what you are doing and you will have a chance of getting into a good university for LLM". I keep on laughing about this "keep doing what you are doing". It is, by far, the smartest advice ever.

Next time you want to question my judgement or advice, think again. Thanks :)

Listen P, you may speak French or even be a French citizen but that surely isn't to your advantage. If you know what I mean, that is. Also, there's a phrase that says "Excuse my French" and it should do some good to understand what it refers to.

It is as you say it is :))) I have no education, nor do I have work experience. All I have is a rented PC and an overdue internet bill. :)))))

My advice is clear and strong. If you want to beat me, you'll have to it in arguments not with acting classes.

You being a lady, I expected more from you :)

EDIT: Well, yes, you are a fine piece. Since you claim I have no work experience (reading from my profile), the same can be inferred about you (reading from your profile). And since, as a fact, you claim to be working for 5 years, how's that for your argument?

What a lousy argument you offered, P. I would hate to be your employer, honestly.

Procedurelle

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Um, yes, not sure why my post caused such a stir.

I obviously understand that no legal liability attaches to me for naming my university. Nonetheless I don't particularly want to be seen to be accusing my university of being 'bad', and clearly my module grades and username would make it trivially easy to identify me if I named the university.

Thank you for your suggestion, hawkme, but for a number of reasons they are not of use to me. Firstly I have a flat, a fiancee, and soon a child and cannot realistically up-sticks to Europe for a year - though I could relocate within the UK. Secondly, I don't particularly want to go to Europe, I'm quite happy here. Thirdly, I already have an MA in a non-law subject - not that you were supposed to know that of course. I did a law degree because I want to do Law and don't intend to switch subjects again just to go back to it. I could have done the GDL but because I want to do postgraduate study in law, I thought that a degree would be more useful.

Your post does seem quite negative, although I appreciate that you are only trying to be realistic. Nevertheless your suggestions are never going to help me in my specific circumstances.

Procedurelle - thanks for the advice re. dissertation. The issue is that Land Law and Equity are compulsory in third year. I then want to study Taxation, International Trade and Commerce 2, Company Law I and Company Law 2 as options. I really don't want to not take two of those options modules which I would have to do to write a dissertation. That said, the Taxation course is assessed only as an extended written essay - no final exam - so I suppose that would serve as a specimen of my written work in lieu of a dissertation. I'm not sure of the word limit, think it's only 5000 words.

I see.

Well, for one thing you didn't mention your particular status. Hence I assumed you are not married (you do have a fiancee :) ), not studied another subject before (and even got an MA), let alone soon having a child. So it is you who should've been more detailed :)

Congratulations on your path so far, having a family certainly is wonderful and good luck with your child.

Please advise why you want to become a lecturer so that I provide adequate advice. Lecturer in what? Trade? Torts? Corporations? Legal history? It all depends on your path...

PS: ---

Hi - I think I mentioned in my first post that my main interests are in restitution and trusts law - particularly from a commercial angle. But of course as I'm still quite early in my studies I can't be sure if those interests will change.

You most definitely have: "My long-term goal is to become a lecturer, principally interested in restitution and the commercial side of the law of trusts"!

However, things change over time. You yourself make the point "I'm still quite early in my studies".

I would say your safest option, given you're in a "bad" uni as you say you are :), is publishing. Since you can't bet on foreign experiences and already have an MA (by the way, how did you perform there?), you should definitely work on papers (articles) that should be published in the UK or overseas. Don't aim for Harvard Law Review, even full (tenured) professors have a hard time getting their articles accepted.

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Quick general question.

How possible is it to get onto a Masters program at a 'top' institution (by which I mean Oxbridge, LSE, UCL, maybe Kings) if your undergraduate degree is from a 'bad' university, but your grades are excellent? My module average is a little over 80% so far after one year but my university is not recognised as reputable (although I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with it).

Hoping someone has relevant personal experience to share. My long-term goal is to become a lecturer, principally interested in restitution and the commercial side of the law of trusts. But I'm a bit worried that I won't get chance to advance my academic career because no decent Masters programme will look at me!