After my LLM, I would like to enroll in a SJD/JSD degree.
After I looked the website of several law schools offering such degree, I am even more puzzled than I was before: rules governing JSDs are very different from school to school, especially with regard to tuition fees. It seems that some schools require the applicant to pay for each year of the JSD (usually, 3) the same amount required to LLM students; some others just ask to pay one of these years, in addition to the LLM tuition fee. Still others charge a discounted rate, while onl one school I am aware of -NYU- offers JSD candidates an annual salary (in exchange for participation in weekly workshops).
This has complicated, rather than facilitated, my decision for the JSD. Not only, but this has also casted great doubts about where I should go for my LLM, since many JSDs are open only to LLM graduates of that specific school.
My question is: are you aware of JSD programs -especially in Top 14 Law Schools- that are open to LLM graduates from other US law schools? So far, I know this is the case with NYU and Harvard, but not for example with Berkeley and Chicago. Thanks a lot for the info.

From what I know, even NYU and Harvard will prefer their own graduates for the SJD program, and most likley to decline others.

Well, for a matter each university would allow SJD candidates if there's an exceptional research proposal.

And each university would preferably take in their own LLM candidates into SJD because they have had the chance to examine the person minutely.

The exception is Cornell, which has all bars policy, no one can enroll for SJD except their own LLM candidates.
As for the rest, there is no such condition that is applied as stringently. As long as one is able to depict sufficiently high levels of achievement in LLM, including and especially the 'thesis', and pull along a coherent research proposal, there is space for one at the top universities.

For all the hysteria surrounding acceptibility proportions of alien PhD candidates, one would find that the ratios are quite balanced and it is not that difficult to find a place at the university of your choice.

At the same time (and without an intent to start another controversy), the positioning of a university in the ranking structure plays very minimal role in completion of a successful PhD. HLS, CLS, SLS, UPenn, OXbridge, LSE, Yale, Cornell, Berkley, Duke- all are abound with faculty members who haven't had any stint at those universities during their education.

After my LLM, I would like to enroll in a SJD/JSD degree.
After I looked the website of several law schools offering such degree, I am even more puzzled than I was before: rules governing JSDs are very different from school to school, especially with regard to tuition fees. It seems that some schools require the applicant to pay for each year of the JSD (usually, 3) the same amount required to LLM students; some others just ask to pay one of these years, in addition to the LLM tuition fee. Still others charge a discounted rate, while onl one school I am aware of -NYU- offers JSD candidates an annual salary (in exchange for participation in weekly workshops).
This has complicated, rather than facilitated, my decision for the JSD. Not only, but this has also casted great doubts about where I should go for my LLM, since many JSDs are open only to LLM graduates of that specific school.
My question is: are you aware of JSD programs -especially in Top 14 Law Schools- that are open to LLM graduates from other US law schools? So far, I know this is the case with NYU and Harvard, but not for example with Berkeley and Chicago. Thanks a lot for the info.

Dear Jagsmehn, as usual I agree with most of what you said. However, I beg to differ on the possibility for any LLM graduate to get admitted for JSD at top universities "so long as one is able to depict sufficiently high levels of achievement in LLM, including and especially the 'thesis', and pull along a coherent research proposal". First, I find it hard that a top law school would give a chance to people who received an education of lower level, say for example who have got their LLM in a law school which is not listed in the top 14.
Second, I can ensure you that in addition to Cornell, the "all bars policy" -as you call it- is adopted either by U of Chicago and Berkeley.

Greg, nice to see you're already well determined for the JSD...I am not totally sure yet because I don't know if I will be able to cover costs. In any case, I am curious about which law schools allow you to apply directly to JSD. Do you mean applying directly for the JSD bypassing their LLM requirement (i.e. substituting it with a foreign LLM) or just applying to the law school's LLM program with a view towards (and having already committed to) the JSD?
In addition, as we were talking about HLS, were you able to estimate what is the tuition fee charged in the third year?Many thanks
Nail

Hi Nail,

My reply to your queries are as follows:

1. I have applied to UCLA and NYU's SJD/JSD directly. I have omitted GW and GTown because I can't afford their fees (fees equivalent to 1 year of LLM) - the latter two also have no scholarships/waiver/financial aid for doctoral candidates.

2. I have also applied to LLM programs of Cornell, Michigan, Harvard, Yale etc with the hopes of completing their LLM program and then SJD/JSD programs. I am happy to spend 1 extra LLM year but it would be dependant on how much financial assistance they are able to offer me for the LLM program and whether it would be worthwhile for me to spend a year extra!

In relation the HLS SJD, I get the impression that students are only required to pay 1 year of tuition fees (which will be only 1,000 if one waives receiving the LLM). Let me know if your understanding is the same? CAn't seem to get information on second and third year cost.
Greg, nice to see you're already well determined for the JSD...I am not totally sure yet because I don't know if I will be able to cover costs. In any case, I am curious about which law schools allow you to apply directly to JSD. Do you mean applying directly for the JSD bypassing their LLM requirement (i.e. substituting it with a foreign LLM) or just applying to the law school's LLM program with a view towards (and having already committed to) the JSD?
In addition, as we were talking about HLS, were you able to estimate what is the tuition fee charged in the third year?Many thanks
Nail

Nail, it is nice to see us agreeing to certain points, and I must state that on those that you differ, I almost agree to your views.

When I checked the website of Berkley, I found some points where leverage could be obtained. However, my reference to Cornell meant that there are few universities that out rightly bar SJD to outsiders. Cornell is the only one among ivy-league to have such a policy.

On the point of having "sufficient levels of prior achievement" I think it would involve not only achievement of certain kind of scores but also gaining them among relatively tough competition. So, the movement at that level would be limited to intra-group transfers. However, it should be possible to move from a top-12/15 university to HLS. Another point worth mentioning (though limited to foreign students) is that it might be better to obtain good results at top universities in home country, if the final aim were to be a PhD/SJD. Definitely, top universities from all countries are given equal weightage at Ivy League except for Cornell.

Literally from the U of Chicago's website:
"Candidates interested in the J.S.D. degree must first spend a year in the Law School's LL.M. Program. Thus, only Chicago LL.M. graduates may participate in the J.S.D. degree program."
Now, Jagsmehn, you must be really a talented lawyer if you found some points of leverage here!
As my dream law school for the JSD would be Chicago, but I am also tempted by other schools for the LLM, please reveal me your secret! :)

As to Berkeley, that policy is not explicitly stated in their website but I talked to the admission committee and this is what I've been told...but of course if you found leverage for Chicago then I would see no problem there...:)

Gregor, sounds like a great plan... my position is quite similar even though I did not receive an LLM from a common law country so I cannot apply directly to JSD. Sounds like we would both like to dip in the LLM experience before the JSD, but clearly financial assistance will play a pivotal role. A related question -when I applied for that at HLS and Berkeley there was something called parental form...I am 26 and financially independent but from looking at this form I interpreted that I had to ask my parents to fill it out anyways(whereas from another thread, I learned that according to the American system of financial aid one can be considered indpendent only if born after 1986). Was that a mistake?If so, am I still on time to say I am financially independent?
Thanks and good luck on your decisions. We shall stay in touch.

Nail,

I applied to HLS's LLM program as well. I, too, asked my parents to send the form - I am in my early 20s (just slightly younger than you). I think you didn't make a mistake and that is required! :)


Cheers,
Greg

I think reference to Chicago was made out of sight due to "copy, paste".

My concern was more limited to Berkeley and even you have stated the ambiguity in the whole process that they adopt.

Otherwise too, I made it clear through the post that Cornell is only an example and that there may be many universities that might be following the same policy.

Anyone applied to NYU's JSD program? Has anyone heard anything?


Cheers,
Greg

Hi guys. I find this thread very interesting cause it mirrors my doubts in a clear fashion. I d like to find a job and research after my llm. I decided it one week ago. I ll be in NY either at NYU or CLS......Have you got any advice.....How difficult do u think it is to get in? How challenging the research ? and Finance is a big problem also.....

Whatever the result is I guess i will try the doctoral path in the same School of my LLM.....the only other I could apply is HLS and YLS for mere prestige and acknowledgment worldwide.

Hi guys. I find this thread very interesting cause it mirrors my doubts in a clear fashion. I d like to find a job and research after my llm. I decided it one week ago. I ll be in NY either at NYU or CLS......Have you got any advice.....How difficult do u think it is to get in? How challenging the research ? and Finance is a big problem also.....

Whatever the result is I guess i will try the doctoral path in the same School of my LLM.....the only other I could apply is HLS and YLS for mere prestige and acknowledgment worldwide.

Thanks Gregor. Thanks a lot for the immediate reply.
it s very helpful. ;))

Do you think would it be difficult to find a job while being a Jsd student ? Let s not consider the crisis of course....but if I m lucky and find a job in a NY lw firm....would it be feasible?

Hey leonaard,

I think most universities have a prohibition for doctoral students to undertake paid employment.....You have to refer to specific rules for each university for that but that is my general impression. Personally, I think NYU wouldn't be funding you to take paid employment!

Most universities, however, require you to only be in attendance for Year 1 and you are free to be off-campus in years 2 and 3 (this would apply mostly for those universities which charge you tutition). I would think that employment would be OK for these schools but they will probably still only allow you to work part-time.....Otherwise, they would require you to be in part-time enrolment!

Which universities have you been offered a place at for your LLM? Which would you be attending?

I applied to NYU, CLS and HLS. Rejected from HLS, and still waiting from CLS.....emailed them twice and they told me i m not waitlisted neither rejected.....so I have to wait.

I ve been accepted from NYU for the NYU NUS full tuition paid program in Singapore....but I gave up that because I had to accept in January without a response from HLS.......So right now if nothing changes I am an NYU student. but would like to have a choice...with CLS....What about u?and your plans?

Hey!

Applied to HLS, YLS, CLS, NYU, UCLA, Cornell, UMich. Rejected by HLS, YLS. Admitted to UCLA. Waitlisted by UChicago. The rest pending. I selected applying to these universities as I have heard that they are generous with financial aid.

I will most likely defer UCLA and save up to attend next year. Unless Cornell, UMich and NYU offers me a place and some financial assistance. I could take an education loan but I already have a LLM from a Tier 1 university in Australia so I can live without another LLM....! Given the bad economy, I wouldn't want to put myself in a position where I am in debt...

Looks like you are going to NYU? Sounds like a good plan. As I am wokring in Singapore and they have an NYu program here, I will most probably not go to NYU if they offer me a place....Such a shame you gave up your full scholarship....! :( I hope you get into CLS because it sounds horrible to have to pay full to attend NYU in NY and free to attend NYU in SG!!

What do you think of UCLA, Cornell, Chicago, NYU? On the highly exaggerated assumption I get into all, which should I pick?


Cheers,
greg

I know Gregor it s a shame :)) but I didn t know so much about the reputation of that double degree program....and Harvard was really my dream school.....I felt I had to risk.....Anyway......I d definitely pick Chicago and NYU. The other ones are excellent schools too and actually I think it hangs on ypur future plans because reputation of a Law school may change from one country to the other.

I know I might be partial because of my admission at NYU. It s true it has got many students...but it has positive aspects I considered when I applied.
. it s a top 5 school.
. it s in NYC.
.it has the best job fair for international students( though the crisis makes it less appealing at the moment)
. the fact that is big is certainly a critical aspect but I think and sometimes in this forum everybody forgets it that an LLM is so important for the education but also for the extremely important chances of networking it may offer. if you are able to build up good contacts during the year of the LLM and you are located on NY where all the business is I guess you have more and more chances to find a good job than in other context. Of course this is a mere opinion and it actually depends on each one's persona attitude and preferences. To me it works.;))

I know Gregor it s a shame :)) but I didn t know so much about the reputation of that double degree program....and Harvard was really my dream school.....I felt I had to risk.....Anyway......I d definitely pick Chicago and NYU. The other ones are excellent schools too and actually I think it hangs on ypur future plans because reputation of a Law school may change from one country to the other.

I know I might be partial because of my admission at NYU. It s true it has got many students...but it has positive aspects I considered when I applied.
. it s a top 5 school.
. it s in NYC.
.it has the best job fair for international students( though the crisis makes it less appealing at the moment)
. the fact that is big is certainly a critical aspect but I think and sometimes in this forum everybody forgets it that an LLM is so important for the education but also for the extremely important chances of networking it may offer. if you are able to build up good contacts during the year of the LLM and you are located on NY where all the business is I guess you have more and more chances to find a good job than in other context. Of course this is a mere opinion and it actually depends on each one's persona attitude and preferences. To me it works.;))

I m in the regular cycle. Applied just before the deadline.