At the moment I am considering where to do a doctorate in law. I have a question that I hope you guys can help to answer. I am Irish, and I have a degree in computer science (BSc) and a 2:1 LLB from University of Limerick, and I am currently doing a LLM in eLaw at University College Cork.

I really like the idea of travelling to study, and I had been accepted into the LLM at the University of Durham, but had to remain at home in Cork due to illness and generally being a lot more financially broke than I thought! It really sucked not getting to go to Durham.

I dont really see the point in doing another Masters just to get a prestigious name on my CV, but I would love to do a doctorate in a good school. I am looking at loads of places in the UK, the USA, Canada, and Europe.

In the UK I would be interested in LSE, UCL, Durham, Edinburgh, Kings College and Queen Mary. In the US I like Harvard, Yale, NYU, University of Pennsylvania, University of Chicago, Columbia, Stanford, Berkley and the University of Michigan. Canada, Im looking at Toronto, Osgood Hall and McGill. In Europe, Im looking at Groningen, Leiden, Leuven, EUI Florence and the University of Amsterdam. (Wow, just realised its a big list!)

Where do I have a chance to get in?

I dont think I have a chance of getting into Oxford or Cambridge as I do not have a First in my LL.B. Yale, Stanford and Chicago all require you to have done their LL.M. before they will admit you, but they do say this can be waved in exceptional circumstances, and I dont know if I would come under this category. What do ye, my esteemed and learned colleagues, think?

I know most of the decision for being accepted into a doctorate goes on the actual proposal you submit, but every school has a cut off point. So where, out of the list above, would my general grades, in your opinion, get me in to?

You should apply to the above schools, including Oxbridge. If you do well enough in your LLM, these schools will consider you as a good candidate for admission. It also depends greatly on your research proposal, and if there is a professor on the faculty roster with the proper expertise to supervise your work.

I completely agree with OJ. I'm currently doing my DPhil at Ox and I didn't have a 1st in my LLB. A strong LLM performance and a very well thought out research proposal shopped around to professors in your field in advance of your application might well make all the difference.

Best of luck!!

Paddy

Not to throw a spanner in the works (at least I hope!) but if you determined you were too broke to go to Durham for the LL.M, are you completely reliant on full funding for a PhD?

I too wish to move onto PhD study after my LL.M (which, incidently, I haven't started yet) and the research I have done into funding seems to suggest that, when it comes to Law departments and UK students, there aint a whole load. I don't know whether the fact that you are Irish will change things, perhaps Paddy Nolan can shed some light on it from that angle and, indeed, the Oxford view, or whether I am in fact missing something. It may well be the case that actually, there is quite a lot of funding available, it just isn't always advertised under the funding and scholarship sections of the websites- something which one of my referees seems to suggest from the way he speaks of his PhD experience Cambridge. Although, that was in the 1970s!

It's true, funding opportunities for law postgrads at Ox are pretty limited and, as such, the subject of intense competition. That said, there is a lot of variation between the colleges in terms of funding so it would definitely be worth researching further (although I will save you a trip to the Merton website: we have no scholarships for law DPhils).

From what I've heard from colleagues, things are slightly better at Cambridge, but I would imagine the competition is still pretty intense.

Cheers,

Thanks for the replies. I have made a few decisions about locations. I don't think I will bother with any of the American schools for two reasons. First, the JSD or SJD just does not carry the same weight as PhD or DPhil. And stemming on from that, I want to do pure research. The idea of having class work on a doctoral course seems ridiculous. The second reason is that the idea of paying that much money for an education offends my Irish heart. (Education being next-to-near free here, for those that didn't know!)

And while on the topic of money, I should clarify. I was completely broke during the summer because a job I was supposed to get fell through because of the whole recession thing. (He was a Solicitor whose practice specialised in commercial property!) By the time I got another job, I had no time to save anything for the year ahead in Durham, and I was in debt from being jobless for most of the summer.

My plan is to not apply to start in 2009. The Masters in UCC is really intense, and despite only having eight hours a week this semester, I am putting in about 70 hours a week in reading, researching, and writing. I will be applying to start in September 2010. This will give me enough time to get a very good research proposal together and apply for as much funding as I possibly can. (Most of the deadlines for funding for beginning in September 2009 are already passed as it is!)

Hopefully the year in-between will give me a chance to get some money saved and funding organised. I am also hoping to sit some (or all) of the FE-1s before starting so that I can start into a training contract when I get home.

I have to say I am excited about the idea of applying to Oxford and Cambridge now. There could be hope for me yet! Its funny, though. I know that having a doctorate will not help me get a job at all. According to all the professionals that come to give us talks about going into practice, most firms dont even care that you have done anything after you LLB or BCL. I just want to do it for myself, so I can know I went as far as I could, and achieved as much as possible. Heres hoping!

Anything else ye have to say will be much appreciated.

By the way, the areas I am interested in doing doctoral research in are IP law (all kinds), EC competition law, advertising law, and environmental law. Pretty much in that order.

Thanks again.

A quick question: Does it matter whether a student takes a LLM or a LLM by research/MA by research programme?!

I have always thought the best approach would be to take a taught LLM to get a wider grounding in the subject matter before delving into full blown research but, more recently, I have come across faculty websites saying that the research LLMs are ideal for those who wish to progress to PhD study.

S_Dimelow,

I have been weighing those options myself. And as you have said, it should in all probability boil down to whether you want to widen your scope by reading a few subjects or straight away want to delve into research of those subject which you have already mastered.

Also, it is worth noting that Oxbridge and many of London colleges do not have an option of LLM by research. So it could also be a question of experiencing stimulating environment at some of the best institutions, in which case one might go for a taught LLM.

A quick question: Does it matter whether a student takes a LLM or a LLM by research/MA by research programme?!

I have always thought the best approach would be to take a taught LLM to get a wider grounding in the subject matter before delving into full blown research but, more recently, I have come across faculty websites saying that the research LLMs are ideal for those who wish to progress to PhD study.

Having said that, a friend of mine has a BA in Law and Geography, an LLB, an LLM in e-Law, an LLM by research (on some area of private law), an LLM in Information Technology Law, and Is now doing, and wait for this... a PhD in... Criminal Justice! He's a mental!

how old if your friend!! Oh my God!