LLM Guide Friends

Would you agree that an LLM (with specialization) for a student who is 'not' an LLB/Lawyer - can serve as a good 'academic credential' if they want to 'teach' down the road?

My thought is that it is 'more' an academic credential vs. an LLB that is more professional (employable). I could be wrong.

I have an undergrad degree (science and poli-sci), am a technology professional with 10 years experience but want to dive deeper into privacy, intellectual property, computer, communication law.

The LLM programs at many NA and EU universities have excellent courses of study.

I don't want to do the bar exam in the country of study, in my own, nor practice law (as a solicitor/barrister) in the traditional sense.

My approach is more from a teaching/consulting standpoint.
Eventually I want to pursue a research degree

Thoughts?

Any other folks on the same path?

Thanks kindly
Paul

I'm surprised you are eligible to do an LLM without an LLB!

Might want to check you can...

TWT, yes most LLM programs don't require a LLB. Especially in the UK. Only a undergrad in good standing + other credentials ofcourse. I guess because it is very specialized and the range of topics is very narrow. Although there are general LLMS and I supposed people could then sit for the bar exams.

Actually that applies for many other degrees including MBA - and PHD research degrees. These are from well known top ranked institutions as well.

This goes back to my question. The LLB i assume is broader and more suitable for professionals who practice law as solicitors/barristers. The LLM I am assuming is geared toward specialized knowledge for an LLB or for professionals of specialized areas where they deal with law, regulation for specific domains like intellectual property, contracts, medical etc.

So career wise - you can 'not' do an LLB, not practice law yet still do an LLM and/or a PHD in Law and go on to teach, consult, go into politics etc.

Paul

I don't want the entire thread to be submerged by an argument over whether you can obtain a place on an LL.M. program without a first law degree, but, having completed the LL.M. in the U.K, what I will say is that almost everyone I knew had obtained a first law degree somewhere.

Regardless of the formal language of the entry requirement, in my experience, this was the case.

Having said that, you should search out different programs. I know that some schools have different inter-disciplinary programs which may suit what you are trying to do. Whether they are actually called LL.M. programs or something else (e.g., M.Sc. in Accounting and Law, or Technology and Law), I don't know. But, sometimes the same course is kind of a cross-over and is open to students from the LL.M. program and from another Master's program, whatever it is.

I don't want to discourage you from your initial line of research because, as a lawyer, your question was not a consideration for me when I applied. But, perhaps there is a second line you could look into, and, to that end, I would not hesitate to contact people from the LL.M. programs at different schools directly. If you are interested in technology and law, call up an I.P. lecturer at one of the schools and ask about what you are trying to do and whether they have any students from other Master's programs which enroll in their course.

The last thing I will mention is that LL.M. programs tend to be diverse, meaning that students generally go abroad to do the program, largely because so many have already studied law domestically and a further year in their home country really adds, well, not much. I don't know what this means for you as a "non-lawyer" (I apologize for the term.), but it may be something to be aware of.

Good luck!

Thanks P_Martini, much appreciated.

I think the problem I'm facing is that my line of work (which is focused on audit, compliance, security in IT) is very much intertwined with IP, technology law and numerous regulations (which spill into medical, financial, food and drug etc - depending on the information managed) yet there are few focused MA, or MSc programs out there that cover this content in the computer studies space. The only ones that do align well are those that fall under the LLM streams.

They do have some IT security and assurance masters programs out there but 90% of the course talk about technical security (which we already know) and 10% is the legal/regulatory element - which quite frankly is becoming more of a concern to management and of course our clients. UofL external has a nice one that I've been looking at too. Yes we have a legal and privacy department - but bridges need to be created through educating each side on how to reach across.

Back to the career element - I guess what some of are thinking about is that down the road we can use the practical experience in IT mgt and formal academic credentials to teach (LLM/MA/Msc) as a foundation for teaching - by teach I mean 50% technology / 50% tech/IP/privacy laws - as they pertain to information technology

I will contact some lecturers per your suggestion - great idea
Thank you kindly

O.K. I see the problem. I understand how a course with only tangential focus on regulation and policy would be unhelpful not only to you, but also in general. I do wonder what programs with a good specialization in IP might be able to offer, and I wish you good luck!

Thanks P_Martini - much appreciated

I don't want the entire thread to be submerged by an argument over whether you can obtain a place on an LL.M. program without a first law degree, but, having completed the LL.M. in the U.K, what I will say is that almost everyone I knew had obtained a first law degree somewhere.

Regardless of the formal language of the entry requirement, in my experience, this was the case.

Having said that, you should search out different programs. I know that some schools have different inter-disciplinary programs which may suit what you are trying to do. Whether they are actually called LL.M. programs or something else (e.g., M.Sc. in Accounting and Law, or Technology and Law), I don't know. But, sometimes the same course is kind of a cross-over and is open to students from the LL.M. program and from another Master's program, whatever it is.

I don't want to discourage you from your initial line of research because, as a lawyer, your question was not a consideration for me when I applied. But, perhaps there is a second line you could look into, and, to that end, I would not hesitate to contact people from the LL.M. programs at different schools directly. If you are interested in technology and law, call up an I.P. lecturer at one of the schools and ask about what you are trying to do and whether they have any students from other Master's programs which enroll in their course.

The last thing I will mention is that LL.M. programs tend to be diverse, meaning that students generally go abroad to do the program, largely because so many have already studied law domestically and a further year in their home country really adds, well, not much. I don't know what this means for you as a "non-lawyer" (I apologize for the term.), but it may be something to be aware of.

Good luck!

Hi Dank, If you are talking about practicing law then yes. I agree.

I disagree that it doesn't add value.

The thing is, functionally in information technology (for example) legal and regulatory compliance is not managed by a lawyer or legal department in a company. It is the responsibility of an information security/compliance officer/manager/director. They don't audit, nor enforce these policies either.

The controls for these areas are not based on the country's law itself but internal policy based on ISO (or other) standards. We implement that into various risk management activities. Legal doesn't draft customer IS, data protection, privacy policies either.

Sometimes our need extends to knowing regulation for the customer's industry too. Consider IT companies who managed health records. We have customers from 100's of industries.

When it comes to handling data - there are a specific set of things we need to know (and it is always changing) about computer/communication/intellectual property/law.

Then there are no specialized programs in our area that cover technology law, intellectual law (what we are charged with protecting). They are coming and in progress, but nothing comprehensive. Can we do without pursuing an LLM - yes. Can we study law to the extent required by our area - yes. Are there areas that are best covered purely by HR or Legal - yes.

The closest we get are masters programs in information security and compliance - but they are 80% tech. Stuff we already know.


Finally senior roles require masters degree in related fields. Executive management and the board are primarily concerned about legal implications of our work. They would feel much better if data protection/security professionals had some level of training in law vs. not.

One day risk management may umbrella data security/privacy/law etc and bridges may be tight - but not today. My example is probably 'very' specific to I.T. so in general you may be right - but there are many exceptions. I'm reading a book on computer law right now (not even started my LLM program) and it's extremely helpful from a consulting standpoint. Us being able to site real examples of applicable law, real cases, refining policies based on this new knowledge - give customers much greater confidence and external auditors much greater assurance.

My 2 cents

Hi Dank, If you are talking about practicing law then yes. I agree.I disagree that it doesn't add value.
inally senior roles require masters degree in related fields. Executive management and the board are primarily concerned about legal implications of our work. They would feel much better if data protection/security professionals had some level of training in law vs. not. One day risk management may umbrella data security/privacy/law etc and bridges may be tight - but not today. My example is probably 'very' specific to I.T. so in general you may be right - but there are many exceptions. I'm reading a book on computer law right now (not even started my LLM program) and it's extremely helpful from a consulting standpoint. Us being able to site real examples of applicable law, real cases, refining policies based on this new knowledge - give customers much greater confidence and external auditors much greater assurance.
My 2 cents

Dank, check out the Univ. of Edinburgh LLM programs in info tech & IP law and you'll see that it is completely relevant.
This is exactly what we do in our space.

Cirriculum includes:
Information Technology Law
Information: Control and Power
Information Technology, Investigation, and Evidence
Forensic Computing and Electronic Evidence
International IP & IT Institutions, Law and Policy
Intellectual Property and Technology
Intellectual Property Law 1 - Copyright and Related Rights
Intellectual Property Law 2 - Industrial Property
Managing Intellectual Property
International Intellectual Property

Check out Queen Mary's LLM in Computer & Communication Law
Cirriculum includes:
Communications Law
Computer Law
E-commerce Law
Intellectual Property
Intellectual Property in the Digital Millennium
Media Law
Intellectual Property and the Creative Industries
Cyberspace Law
Privacy and Information Law

Check out Strathclydes - Info Tech LLM

I know dozens of people in my line of work who have followed a similar path - doing LLMS in tech law. That is where I got the idea in the first place. A lot of the legal regulatory function is governed by the compliance wing of IT.

I'm already working as a compliance officer in the worlds largest computer company. This is the direction our field is going. I'm sharing that with the board. As a consultant and account manager you are expected to understand applicable laws as they apply to regional and cross-border data flow.

The LLM which people on the board seek 'includes' what i'm doing with it as well right? Just because it is new or different in your eyes doesn't make it 'irrelavant' :)

Dank, check out the Univ. of Edinburgh LLM programs in info tech & IP law and you'll see that it is completely relevant.

The LLM which people on the board seek 'includes' what i'm doing with it as well right? Just because it is new or different in your eyes doesn't make it 'irrelavant' :)

Kindly explain how I'm confused Dank :)
It may help me make a better choice quite honestly.
Please englighten.

Here is a web link to both programs:
http://www.law.ed.ac.uk/ahrc/teaching/llm/
http://www.law.qmul.ac.uk/postgraduate/llm/programmes/computercoms/

Best of luck to you as well.

Hi pdhad,

You would definitely derive value from an LLM in your line of work.

In my view you would study a LLM primarily to better understand the business drivers supported by your IT security management and governance responsibilities which will in turn make you more effective. Research conducted by the likes of Gartner and others found significant evidence that improved IT and business collaboration leads to increased organizational performance.

Even if you do not utilize your LLM learnings 8 hours every day, it will still add value to you and your organization, especially if you already are or want to become a senior manager. If you have the time, money and inclination...go for it!!

Just of the record, I certainly don't think you are "confused". I think you understand very will that this will not turn you into a lawyer, and doing so is clearly not your objective, but that you instead wish to optimize your effectiveness.

In my view the LLM is more suited to your needs than the LLB based on the specialist nature of the course. All the best in whatever you decide to do!!

I am also a "non-layer" looking for a good LL.M. program to complement my other academic and professional pursuits. I think that an LL.M. adds tremendouns value to a working professional who wants to manage or consult in certain industries and needs a concentrated understanding of laws that purtain to their speciality. Some of the specialized LL.M. programs that come to mind are:

Intellectual Property
Media Law
Aviation Law
International Business/Trade
Finance Law

I'm sure that there are others that I failed to mention. Business leaders often need to understand the law, and getting a specialized LL.M. can be a good way to complement an MBA or other advanced degree.

As I have contacted a few universities, I am finding that they are open to working professional who are not lawyers. Like other academic programs, students learn more by having a diverse cohort to study with. Having professional (nonlaw) experience in the area of the LL.M. can actually help you to gain entrance if you can articulate your experience and desire to study in the program to the admissions office.

Arnold & Mesix - Thank you for your kind response. Very much appreciated. I completely agree.

I know people who are in logistics management who've gone out of their way to really understand information technology. There are business managers who go off and study psychology. Masters degrees mean different things to different people. You can learn anything that a masters degree teaches on the internet. You don't 'have' to go to school. However, the credential gives credibility.

For academics, while schools will likely prefer experienced lawyers to teach mainstream law, most industry verticles will require specialized in depth knowledge in law/regulations affecting those areas.

Even common every day citizens need to understand the law. Ignorance is not a defence.

Best Regards All

Arnold & Mesix - Thank you for your kind response. Very much appreciated. I completely agree.

I know people who are in logistics management who've gone out of their way to really understand information technology. There are business managers who go off and study psychology. Masters degrees mean different things to different people. You can learn anything that a masters degree teaches on the internet. You don't 'have' to go to school. However, the credential gives credibility.

For academics, while schools will likely prefer experienced lawyers to teach mainstream law, most industry verticles will require specialized in depth knowledge in law/regulations affecting those areas.

Even common every day citizens need to understand the law. Ignorance is not a defence.

Best Regards All

Dear all.
There is a great deal of value in pursuing an LLM as the point is to gain more knowledge in a field not merely to boost your CV, though clearly it will be a definite bonus if you choose a solid programme. Speaking for the programmes at Edinburgh as that is what I am familiar with, the distance programmes follow the same curriculm, albeit delivered in a different manner, as the in-house programmes and are run by the same faculty members which helps them deliver information queries that arise in both formats of the courses. There is a benefit to having non-legal classmates as the point of view is often different and everyone can benefit from understanding a topic from several views, not always the strong suit of the legal profession (I am a lawyer so say this understanding I may speak for myself, but doubt I am alone :) )
There is a strong percentage of non-law graduates that join the Edinburgh LLM programmes each year so definitely do not let that point deter you.
As regard to time and money, I think choosing the right course for you goes a long way to remedy this. Even if the initial investment is high, further education is never a bad thing. The education or degree isn't what makes you a success...it is what you do with it!
Best of luck with your decision Pdhad.

Dear all.
The education or degree isn't what makes you a success...it is what you do with it!
Best of luck with your decision Pdhad.