LLM in France, Geneva and Qs


oro

Hello everybody,

I am applying for an llm. My options in terms of the country are France and Switzerland.
I am obtaining a JD in the USA.

I have a preference for France because both Paris 1 and Paris 2 offer LLMs and classes that cover both public and private (business, etc) international law.

On the other hand, the Geneva schools seem to offer masters (not the same as an LLM) or a two year program, which I consider as being too long.

So, emphasizing La France. ^_^

Some things about me, for those of you who can guide me in regards to these two schools.

I am interested in international law in terms of human rights, and also, business and economics.
I would not mind staying in Europe, however, this is not fixed.
I speak French, not perfect but I do speak it. I am very good at languages. However, I do feel concerned about taking classes in French because I fear failing exams and tests if I do not catch up.
But, I do want to improve my French, thus, the challenge is also appealing.
Besides, I think that job prospects would find it more interesting that I took classes in French instead of 'hiding' under the English banner.
I already know English and my maternal (Spanish.)
I like diversity, different cultures, foods and languages.

Questions,

1. What are the cons and pros of Paris 1 v. Paris 2?
2. Do you send the applications to the schools? Or to the embassy so they send it to the schools?
3. How to arrange about lodging in France? Insight please.
4. Are my assumptions of the schools in Switzerland correct? (Read above.)

I have read the following about Paris 1 and 2.

Paris 1

Pro
- Great for international law, human rights
- More diverse and progressive
- Classes are in French, thus better language immersion
- International recognition.

Con
- Strikes?
- May have the international recognition but that is just image. It does not reflect when it comes to the courses, workload, academic challenges. Paris 2 is better in this.

Paris 2

Con
- Not as diverse. More right-leaning
- Little international recognition
- Not good for human rights as Paris 1
- Classes are in English so little language immersion.

Pro
- Better coursework, challenging classes. Better prepared students
- Very good for business-oriented aspects.
- Better "ranking" than Paris 1.
- Recognized as better than Paris 1 in France itself.

Now, again, this is what I have read.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Hello everybody,

I am applying for an llm. My options in terms of the country are France and Switzerland.
I am obtaining a JD in the USA.

I have a preference for France because both Paris 1 and Paris 2 offer LLMs and classes that cover both public and private (business, etc) international law.

On the other hand, the Geneva schools seem to offer masters (not the same as an LLM) or a two year program, which I consider as being too long.

So, emphasizing La France. ^_^

Some things about me, for those of you who can guide me in regards to these two schools.

I am interested in international law in terms of human rights, and also, business and economics.
I would not mind staying in Europe, however, this is not fixed.
I speak French, not perfect but I do speak it. I am very good at languages. However, I do feel concerned about taking classes in French because I fear failing exams and tests if I do not catch up.
But, I do want to improve my French, thus, the challenge is also appealing.
Besides, I think that job prospects would find it more interesting that I took classes in French instead of 'hiding' under the English banner.
I already know English and my maternal (Spanish.)
I like diversity, different cultures, foods and languages.

Questions,

1. What are the cons and pros of Paris 1 v. Paris 2?
2. Do you send the applications to the schools? Or to the embassy so they send it to the schools?
3. How to arrange about lodging in France? Insight please.
4. Are my assumptions of the schools in Switzerland correct? (Read above.)

I have read the following about Paris 1 and 2.

Paris 1

Pro
- Great for international law, human rights
- More diverse and progressive
- Classes are in French, thus better language immersion
- International recognition.

Con
- Strikes?
- May have the international recognition but that is just image. It does not reflect when it comes to the courses, workload, academic challenges. Paris 2 is better in this.

Paris 2

Con
- Not as diverse. More right-leaning
- Little international recognition
- Not good for human rights as Paris 1
- Classes are in English so little language immersion.

Pro
- Better coursework, challenging classes. Better prepared students
- Very good for business-oriented aspects.
- Better "ranking" than Paris 1.
- Recognized as better than Paris 1 in France itself.

Now, again, this is what I have read.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.





quote
Goteborg

Have you seen this thread?
http://www.llm-guide.com/board/91188

There are a couple of useful links to the Paris 1 & 2 evaluations by AERES, the French academic standards agency.

In a nutshell:
- don't worry about "left" or "right" political orientation. Those are old stereotypes at best. The undergrads at Assas might be wearing more expensive clothing but that's about it.
- don't worry about strikes at the Sorbonne. The law school is not really affected.
- Assas probably does a better job with networking and internship assistance (it does at the M2 level) and is certainly more on top of marketing its name in France.
- DO WORRY about the challenge of competing for grades if all your course work is in French. Different types of writing exercises ("dissertations", "commentaires"...) will be subject to high expectations in terms of form and they are quite codified.

So if you choose the French language program, I suggest you plan a couple of immersion months before studies begin and get yourself a specialized tutor who can walk you through these expectations.

I don't think I'm overstating my case. The Sorbonne (Paris 1) runs several terrific double degree programs with Columbia, Cornell and Kings College law schools. The English speaking students who are selected are supposed to be fluent in French. Additionally, they receive extra, legal French courses the first two years at their home universities before spending two years in Paris. From what I've heard from participants, almost all of them still have a really tough time with the legal French and the specific format expectations on exams.

Have you seen this thread?
http://www.llm-guide.com/board/91188

There are a couple of useful links to the Paris 1 & 2 evaluations by AERES, the French academic standards agency.

In a nutshell:
- don't worry about "left" or "right" political orientation. Those are old stereotypes at best. The undergrads at Assas might be wearing more expensive clothing but that's about it.
- don't worry about strikes at the Sorbonne. The law school is not really affected.
- Assas probably does a better job with networking and internship assistance (it does at the M2 level) and is certainly more on top of marketing its name in France.
- DO WORRY about the challenge of competing for grades if all your course work is in French. Different types of writing exercises ("dissertations", "commentaires"...) will be subject to high expectations in terms of form and they are quite codified.

So if you choose the French language program, I suggest you plan a couple of immersion months before studies begin and get yourself a specialized tutor who can walk you through these expectations.

I don't think I'm overstating my case. The Sorbonne (Paris 1) runs several terrific double degree programs with Columbia, Cornell and Kings College law schools. The English speaking students who are selected are supposed to be fluent in French. Additionally, they receive extra, legal French courses the first two years at their home universities before spending two years in Paris. From what I've heard from participants, almost all of them still have a really tough time with the legal French and the specific format expectations on exams.

quote
oro

Thank you very much for your response.
It clarified a lot of things for me.
I looked at that thread but, some individuals did not seem very objective and sometimes the opinions of Paris 1 v. Paris 2 and vice versa seemed childish, like children competing for sweets.

My understanding is that Paris 1 is all in French and Assas is in English.
How does that sound for job prospects when they realize you took your classes in English? If I were to stay in France, or if I were to work for an US-based firm, I would not have had the practice of explaining French Law in French.
Do you understand what I mean?

I am not planning to do the Master 2.
Just the one-year LLM.

Thank you very much for your response.
It clarified a lot of things for me.
I looked at that thread but, some individuals did not seem very objective and sometimes the opinions of Paris 1 v. Paris 2 and vice versa seemed childish, like children competing for sweets.

My understanding is that Paris 1 is all in French and Assas is in English.
How does that sound for job prospects when they realize you took your classes in English? If I were to stay in France, or if I were to work for an US-based firm, I would not have had the practice of explaining French Law in French.
Do you understand what I mean?

I am not planning to do the Master 2.
Just the one-year LLM.
quote
Goteborg

Hi Oro,

Here's the law student's and young lawyers' thread from the "Hardware.fr" forum.

http://forum.hardware.fr/hfr/EmploiEtudes/Etudes-Orientation/topik-apprentis-juristes-sujet_17425_467.htm#bas

Try asking your last question (preferably in French :-) there.

Just off the cuff and assuming that you had the pre-LLM creds to land a big law job at all (not that easy these days), I don't think a US or UK firm in Paris would be relying on YOU to explain French law in French to their clients. Can you imagine a big law firm in NY relying on a recent French law grad who just completed a top American LLM to explain American law in English to their clients? That's not happening a lot these days. Your trump in Paris would be precisely your ability to research and draft well worded, error free English documents.

But, like I suggested, above, put your question to the "apprenti-jusistes" on the Hardware.fr forum.

Hi Oro,

Here's the law student's and young lawyers' thread from the "Hardware.fr" forum.

http://forum.hardware.fr/hfr/EmploiEtudes/Etudes-Orientation/topik-apprentis-juristes-sujet_17425_467.htm#bas

Try asking your last question (preferably in French :-) there.

Just off the cuff and assuming that you had the pre-LLM creds to land a big law job at all (not that easy these days), I don't think a US or UK firm in Paris would be relying on YOU to explain French law in French to their clients. Can you imagine a big law firm in NY relying on a recent French law grad who just completed a top American LLM to explain American law in English to their clients? That's not happening a lot these days. Your trump in Paris would be precisely your ability to research and draft well worded, error free English documents.

But, like I suggested, above, put your question to the "apprenti-jusistes" on the Hardware.fr forum.
quote
oro

Thanks.

So to understand. Paris 1 (all French) would make more sense if one were to work in France?

I am trying to understand the benefits of Paris 1 (French) vs. Paris 2 (English) in terms of the language of instruction, other than the advantage of a student having better familiarity with English than French or vice versa.
I mean, why does Paris 2, a school in France offers its course in English?

Thanks for the link.
The site is in maintenance. I will keep trying.

Thanks.

So to understand. Paris 1 (all French) would make more sense if one were to work in France?

I am trying to understand the benefits of Paris 1 (French) vs. Paris 2 (English) in terms of the language of instruction, other than the advantage of a student having better familiarity with English than French or vice versa.
I mean, why does Paris 2, a school in France offers its course in English?

Thanks for the link.
The site is in maintenance. I will keep trying.
quote
Goteborg

Ooops, Hardware.fr goes down for a short site maintenance period every evening New York time at around 10 p.m.. Don't fret, it doesn't last long.

Why does Assas do its LLM in English? My guess:
- Easier to attract international students (see my comments on the language barrier) which is a feather in their cap, ranking-wise.
- More importantly, at Paris big law firms (which are the ones many P 1 and P 2 students are gunning for) a large majority of the corporate / finance / M & A work done concerns clients and partner law offices from outside of France. Very often, this work is conducted in English. An LLM in English is a kind of "good housekeeping seal of approval" for the students' ability to work in that language.

Hey, everyone else. I wish you'd add your two cents here on Oro's two most pressing questions:

- How hard would it be to study in French at the Sorbonne's LLM in French for a non-native French speaker, but who gets along in French?

- Would it be an advantage to do the P 1 LLM in French (rather than in English at P 2) if he/she were to want to get a job in France afterwards?

Ooops, Hardware.fr goes down for a short site maintenance period every evening New York time at around 10 p.m.. Don't fret, it doesn't last long.

Why does Assas do its LLM in English? My guess:
- Easier to attract international students (see my comments on the language barrier) which is a feather in their cap, ranking-wise.
- More importantly, at Paris big law firms (which are the ones many P 1 and P 2 students are gunning for) a large majority of the corporate / finance / M & A work done concerns clients and partner law offices from outside of France. Very often, this work is conducted in English. An LLM in English is a kind of "good housekeeping seal of approval" for the students' ability to work in that language.

Hey, everyone else. I wish you'd add your two cents here on Oro's two most pressing questions:

- How hard would it be to study in French at the Sorbonne's LLM in French for a non-native French speaker, but who gets along in French?

- Would it be an advantage to do the P 1 LLM in French (rather than in English at P 2) if he/she were to want to get a job in France afterwards?
quote
Goteborg

Another link, Oro:

http://www.assas.net/forum/index.php?showforum=110747
(the M2 - LLM section of Assas.net)

Although the Hardware forum can get pretty juvenile for days, there are big sections with quality comments. This Assas.net forum is nearly always serious (a kind of self-help site run by Assas students). Didn't see a recent thread on their LLM so you may have to create one.

Another link, Oro:

http://www.assas.net/forum/index.php?showforum=110747
(the M2 - LLM section of Assas.net)

Although the Hardware forum can get pretty juvenile for days, there are big sections with quality comments. This Assas.net forum is nearly always serious (a kind of self-help site run by Assas students). Didn't see a recent thread on their LLM so you may have to create one.
quote
EdP

Hi there

I would go to Geneva. The law school has more money, the campus is nicer, the town has higher quality of life, and the reputation is great.

Paris LLMs are more of a money making scheme for the law schools than proper degrees. While the level of teaching is high, the general perception (and that is reflected in the student body) is that the quality degrees are the "Master 2" degrees (which are all in French), not LLMs.

As to the difference between P1 and P2, don't worry about it too much. There are more differences between individual degrees within each university than between these two universities. Pick the degree you want first and foremost.

Hi there

I would go to Geneva. The law school has more money, the campus is nicer, the town has higher quality of life, and the reputation is great.

Paris LLMs are more of a money making scheme for the law schools than proper degrees. While the level of teaching is high, the general perception (and that is reflected in the student body) is that the quality degrees are the "Master 2" degrees (which are all in French), not LLMs.

As to the difference between P1 and P2, don't worry about it too much. There are more differences between individual degrees within each university than between these two universities. Pick the degree you want first and foremost.
quote
oro

Thank you for the insight.
Now Mater 2 degrees are two years, correct?

Geneva seems nice but I have been told that compared to Paris, Geneva is far more exclusive towards foreigners, especially if they are not white. And the statistics confirm this.

Thank you for the insight.
Now Mater 2 degrees are two years, correct?

Geneva seems nice but I have been told that compared to Paris, Geneva is far more exclusive towards foreigners, especially if they are not white. And the statistics confirm this.
quote

The problem with the Paris II course is it is not even in French! I don't see the point in studying at a "French Law School" if it is in English and after all the Ecole de Droit de la Sorbonne is in fact part of Paris I and not Paris II.

I am currently at the end of the Paris I LLM and can thoroughly recommend it. The quality of teaching has been superb and the support from the Directrice has been wonderful. Since there are only 15 or so students, there is an opportunity to form a real bond with the teachers and Directrice. We recently had a picnic on Saturday organised by one of our fellow students who invited a number of teachers and it was a very convivial occasion. There is a real sense of family with the Paris I LLM and the visits to Luxembourg, Brussels and to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg were a real highlight.

I am currently in an internship at the Conseil d'état (French Council of State) and am confident that I would never have secured this internship if I wasn't enrolled in such a prestigious course.

If you have any more questions on Paris I and its LLM do not hesitate to post them.

John

John

The problem with the Paris II course is it is not even in French! I don't see the point in studying at a "French Law School" if it is in English and after all the Ecole de Droit de la Sorbonne is in fact part of Paris I and not Paris II.

I am currently at the end of the Paris I LLM and can thoroughly recommend it. The quality of teaching has been superb and the support from the Directrice has been wonderful. Since there are only 15 or so students, there is an opportunity to form a real bond with the teachers and Directrice. We recently had a picnic on Saturday organised by one of our fellow students who invited a number of teachers and it was a very convivial occasion. There is a real sense of family with the Paris I LLM and the visits to Luxembourg, Brussels and to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg were a real highlight.

I am currently in an internship at the Conseil d'état (French Council of State) and am confident that I would never have secured this internship if I wasn't enrolled in such a prestigious course.

If you have any more questions on Paris I and its LLM do not hesitate to post them.

John

John
quote
oro

I want to add that the Institut de Droit compare, which is the base of the Paris II LLM is in Paris II.
Also, Paris II is better for those who are interested more in international private law, and not so much human rights.

As to the fact that the LLM is in English, according to their brochure, their language of instruction is French but, that may be wrong.

For those who are interested in Paris I, the deadline has passed. You may want to contact the school and investigate if you can still submit your application.

I want to add that the Institut de Droit compare, which is the base of the Paris II LLM is in Paris II.
Also, Paris II is better for those who are interested more in international private law, and not so much human rights.

As to the fact that the LLM is in English, according to their brochure, their language of instruction is French but, that may be wrong.

For those who are interested in Paris I, the deadline has passed. You may want to contact the school and investigate if you can still submit your application.
quote
pinar_LLM

no, the deadline has not expired yet for those who are interested in Paris 1. They sent this yesterday:

Les candidatures LL.M. de Paris I (Genuine Sorbonne Law!) sont ouvertes jusqu'à la fin du mois. Cliquer ici pour voir la brochure et programme de 7 mois théorique et 3 mois de pratique www.univ-paris1.fr/diplomes/llm/ . Le diplôme délivré par l'Université de Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne est de niveau troisième cycle. Il s'adresse en priorité à tous les juristes francophones qui souhaitent acquérir un excellent niveau en droit français et en droit européen (le programme reprend toutes les connaissances dans les matières fondamentales), perfectionner leur niveau de français oral et écrit et dans le même entamer un tournant dans leur carrière professionnelle. Cette formation ouvre en outre des portes en ce qu'elle bénéficie d'une bonne réputation sur le marché du travail franco-européen et permet aussi de poursuivre ses études ou recherches au sein de l'école de droit de la Sorbonne. La formation débute le 3 septembre 2012 et se termine le 30 juin 2013. La sélection s'opère sur dossier et entretien téléphonique en français. Les frais de scolarité s'élèvent à 10 000 euros.

no, the deadline has not expired yet for those who are interested in Paris 1. They sent this yesterday:

Les candidatures LL.M. de Paris I (Genuine Sorbonne Law!) sont ouvertes jusqu'à la fin du mois. Cliquer ici pour voir la brochure et programme de 7 mois théorique et 3 mois de pratique www.univ-paris1.fr/diplomes/llm/ . Le diplôme délivré par l'Université de Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne est de niveau troisième cycle. Il s'adresse en priorité à tous les juristes francophones qui souhaitent acquérir un excellent niveau en droit français et en droit européen (le programme reprend toutes les connaissances dans les matières fondamentales), perfectionner leur niveau de français oral et écrit et dans le même entamer un tournant dans leur carrière professionnelle. Cette formation ouvre en outre des portes en ce qu'elle bénéficie d'une bonne réputation sur le marché du travail franco-européen et permet aussi de poursuivre ses études ou recherches au sein de l'école de droit de la Sorbonne. La formation débute le 3 septembre 2012 et se termine le 30 juin 2013. La sélection s'opère sur dossier et entretien téléphonique en français. Les frais de scolarité s'élèvent à 10 000 euros.
quote

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