Advanced LLM Leiden


v305
I'm an non-EU attorney interested in the Public International Law advanced LLM program at Leiden. How many students apply and how many are accepted? Also, how much experience/background in international law is necessary to get into the program? I have legal experience, but not in that area and am looking to transition into international law by getting an LLM first.

Thanks in advance for any advice/information!
I'm an non-EU attorney interested in the Public International Law advanced LLM program at Leiden. How many students apply and how many are accepted? Also, how much experience/background in international law is necessary to get into the program? I have legal experience, but not in that area and am looking to transition into international law by getting an LLM first.

Thanks in advance for any advice/information!
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AgentSmith
I did this program last year. There were a few people with very little experience in international law, there were one or two with significant experience and many with 0 experience. If you are seeking a transition to international law think twice the program costs 15 000 euros and 25 out of 30 of last year's students are unemployed or doing unpaid internships at the organizations/courts in the Hague that are either downsizing or closing down. The career perspectives of this program are zero. The only post-masters support we get from the program coordinator are occasional Phd vacancies and of course more unpaid internships...
I did this program last year. There were a few people with very little experience in international law, there were one or two with significant experience and many with 0 experience. If you are seeking a transition to international law think twice the program costs 15 000 euros and 25 out of 30 of last year's students are unemployed or doing unpaid internships at the organizations/courts in the Hague that are either downsizing or closing down. The career perspectives of this program are zero. The only post-masters support we get from the program coordinator are occasional Phd vacancies and of course more unpaid internships...
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bluecrown
Hi AgentSmith,

Thanks for the info. I would like to ask about the professors. How are they in terms of teaching and expertise? Thanks.
Hi AgentSmith,

Thanks for the info. I would like to ask about the professors. How are they in terms of teaching and expertise? Thanks.
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crazyn
Hey this is very disappointing to hear. I was looking at the Advance LLM Program in Air and Space law. Any inputs?
Hey this is very disappointing to hear. I was looking at the Advance LLM Program in Air and Space law. Any inputs?
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@Agent Smith

In Europe, it is the process to gain an internship then a traineeship before becoming a full-time employee. Most internships are unpaid and the ones that are paid only pay very little. So if you do not have experience to move differently in your career (and if you do not have a work permit that is a whole different story because you are essentially limited to unpaid internships), this is what you are left with either way.
@Agent Smith

In Europe, it is the process to gain an internship then a traineeship before becoming a full-time employee. Most internships are unpaid and the ones that are paid only pay very little. So if you do not have experience to move differently in your career (and if you do not have a work permit that is a whole different story because you are essentially limited to unpaid internships), this is what you are left with either way.
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AgentSmith
Hi AgentSmith,

Thanks for the info. I would like to ask about the professors. How are they in terms of teaching and expertise? Thanks.


The professors have a good reputation, but most of them don't get to know the students well enough in order to endorse them for jobs. Some of them fly over or come by train from different countries just to give the lecture and then leave again. So, I'm sorry to say, but that's just not enough. The market is brutal nowadays and any educational program should guarantee a job. After all it's an expensive investment...
<blockquote>Hi AgentSmith,

Thanks for the info. I would like to ask about the professors. How are they in terms of teaching and expertise? Thanks.</blockquote>

The professors have a good reputation, but most of them don't get to know the students well enough in order to endorse them for jobs. Some of them fly over or come by train from different countries just to give the lecture and then leave again. So, I'm sorry to say, but that's just not enough. The market is brutal nowadays and any educational program should guarantee a job. After all it's an expensive investment...
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AgentSmith
@Agent Smith

In Europe, it is the process to gain an internship then a traineeship before becoming a full-time employee. Most internships are unpaid and the ones that are paid only pay very little. So if you do not have experience to move differently in your career (and if you do not have a work permit that is a whole different story because you are essentially limited to unpaid internships), this is what you are left with either way.


I did the masters after I did several unpaid internships in the Hague. So even with several years of work experience, chances of getting a job in one of those organizations in the Hague are 1 in a 1000.

More about the program, they may have a good reputation and famous professors, but what's their purpose if they don't endorse their students?
<blockquote>@Agent Smith

In Europe, it is the process to gain an internship then a traineeship before becoming a full-time employee. Most internships are unpaid and the ones that are paid only pay very little. So if you do not have experience to move differently in your career (and if you do not have a work permit that is a whole different story because you are essentially limited to unpaid internships), this is what you are left with either way.</blockquote>

I did the masters after I did several unpaid internships in the Hague. So even with several years of work experience, chances of getting a job in one of those organizations in the Hague are 1 in a 1000.

More about the program, they may have a good reputation and famous professors, but what's their purpose if they don't endorse their students?
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bluecrown
I believe it is really hard to get into international organizations, even in the US. My friends who completed their LLM from Columbia and NYU Law (with scholarship grants) also had a hard time getting into the UN. In fact, some didn't even get unpaid internships. But it would have been nice if at least the law school could assist in career development.

But apart from career development issues, I have only heard good feedback particularly about the advanced LLM, for its extensive coverage on International Law and excellent professors, which would mean that the students will certainly learn from the program. I hope this is accurate.
I believe it is really hard to get into international organizations, even in the US. My friends who completed their LLM from Columbia and NYU Law (with scholarship grants) also had a hard time getting into the UN. In fact, some didn't even get unpaid internships. But it would have been nice if at least the law school could assist in career development.

But apart from career development issues, I have only heard good feedback particularly about the advanced LLM, for its extensive coverage on International Law and excellent professors, which would mean that the students will certainly learn from the program. I hope this is accurate.
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v305
So what I gather from these posts is that I will learn a great deal in the Advanced Program, but will leave with a mountain of debt and no real job prospects.
So what I gather from these posts is that I will learn a great deal in the Advanced Program, but will leave with a mountain of debt and no real job prospects.
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AgentSmith
So what I gather from these posts is that I will learn a great deal in the Advanced Program, but will leave with a mountain of debt and no real job prospects.


Exactly.
<blockquote>So what I gather from these posts is that I will learn a great deal in the Advanced Program, but will leave with a mountain of debt and no real job prospects.</blockquote>

Exactly.
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crazyn
But doesn't Leiden give scholarships and grants?
But doesn't Leiden give scholarships and grants?
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Brainy Smu...
Leiden does have a scholarship called the "Leiden University Excellence Scholarship Programme (LExS)" located here: http://prospectivestudents.leiden.edu/scholarships/scholarship/lexs.html. LExS, from what I read in some past threads, does not simply handout platinum or gold to prospects. You will be lucky if you get silver.

LExS is one of several scholarships Leiden offers, located here: http://prospectivestudents.leiden.edu/scholarships/scholarship/.

The Netherlands (Holland) has numerous scholarship schemes that falls under Nuffic, located here: http://www.nuffic.nl/en/scholarships. All universities in the Netherlands offer Nuffic as an alternative to their own scholarships. The most popular of Nuffic is Huygen.

Despite what was stated by both Agentsmith and LLMstudent11, which I believe are insiders, their words will be scrutinised. Both have reasonably stipulating feedback on the Advanced LLM. However it is only an eye opener to what remains bleak to applicants.

I have a query; between the both of you (Agentsmith & LLMstudent11), what law course is beneficial and has the highest rate of employment?
Leiden does have a scholarship called the "Leiden University Excellence Scholarship Programme (LExS)" located here: http://prospectivestudents.leiden.edu/scholarships/scholarship/lexs.html. LExS, from what I read in some past threads, does not simply handout platinum or gold to prospects. You will be lucky if you get silver.

LExS is one of several scholarships Leiden offers, located here: http://prospectivestudents.leiden.edu/scholarships/scholarship/.

The Netherlands (Holland) has numerous scholarship schemes that falls under Nuffic, located here: http://www.nuffic.nl/en/scholarships. All universities in the Netherlands offer Nuffic as an alternative to their own scholarships. The most popular of Nuffic is Huygen.

Despite what was stated by both Agentsmith and LLMstudent11, which I believe are insiders, their words will be scrutinised. Both have reasonably stipulating feedback on the Advanced LLM. However it is only an eye opener to what remains bleak to applicants.

I have a query; between the both of you (Agentsmith & LLMstudent11), what law course is beneficial and has the highest rate of employment?
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AgentSmith
Leiden does have a scholarship called the "Leiden University Excellence Scholarship Programme (LExS)" located here: http://prospectivestudents.leiden.edu/scholarships/scholarship/lexs.html. LExS, from what I read in some past threads, does not simply handout platinum or gold to prospects. You will be lucky if you get silver.

LExS is one of several scholarships Leiden offers, located here: http://prospectivestudents.leiden.edu/scholarships/scholarship/.

The Netherlands (Holland) has numerous scholarship schemes that falls under Nuffic, located here: http://www.nuffic.nl/en/scholarships. All universities in the Netherlands offer Nuffic as an alternative to their own scholarships. The most popular of Nuffic is Huygen.

Despite what was stated by both Agentsmith and LLMstudent11, which I believe are insiders, their words will be scrutinised. Both have reasonably stipulating feedback on the Advanced LLM. However it is only an eye opener to what remains bleak to applicants.

I have a query; between the both of you (Agentsmith & LLMstudent11), what law course is beneficial and has the highest rate of employment?



Only one student gets a top scholarship that is Gold LeXS. The Gold LeXs in class 2011-12 was rightfully awarded, because this person was a top student in our class and valedictorian.

The silver covers the difference between the home fee and the institutional fee, so you end up paying about 1700. The student that was awarded this one already had extensive experience in the courts in the Hague.

The bronze covers 50% I think, and I don't know who it was awarded to. So, I think, although I'm not sure, that there are three scholarships available.

To answer the question by BrainySmurf, I think that the Advanced Tax Law program might have the best career perspectives although you have to be a character that is able to study something like that. My post-masters experience is that you can only find a job in a field you specialize in. So, if you have studied international law, it is very hard to fall back on corporate law as an alternative, unless you have pre-masters work experience in the field.
<blockquote>Leiden does have a scholarship called the "Leiden University Excellence Scholarship Programme (LExS)" located here: http://prospectivestudents.leiden.edu/scholarships/scholarship/lexs.html. LExS, from what I read in some past threads, does not simply handout platinum or gold to prospects. You will be lucky if you get silver.

LExS is one of several scholarships Leiden offers, located here: http://prospectivestudents.leiden.edu/scholarships/scholarship/.

The Netherlands (Holland) has numerous scholarship schemes that falls under Nuffic, located here: http://www.nuffic.nl/en/scholarships. All universities in the Netherlands offer Nuffic as an alternative to their own scholarships. The most popular of Nuffic is Huygen.

Despite what was stated by both Agentsmith and LLMstudent11, which I believe are insiders, their words will be scrutinised. Both have reasonably stipulating feedback on the Advanced LLM. However it is only an eye opener to what remains bleak to applicants.

I have a query; between the both of you (Agentsmith & LLMstudent11), what law course is beneficial and has the highest rate of employment?</blockquote>


Only one student gets a top scholarship that is Gold LeXS. The Gold LeXs in class 2011-12 was rightfully awarded, because this person was a top student in our class and valedictorian.

The silver covers the difference between the home fee and the institutional fee, so you end up paying about 1700. The student that was awarded this one already had extensive experience in the courts in the Hague.

The bronze covers 50% I think, and I don't know who it was awarded to. So, I think, although I'm not sure, that there are three scholarships available.

To answer the question by BrainySmurf, I think that the Advanced Tax Law program might have the best career perspectives although you have to be a character that is able to study something like that. My post-masters experience is that you can only find a job in a field you specialize in. So, if you have studied international law, it is very hard to fall back on corporate law as an alternative, unless you have pre-masters work experience in the field.
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v305
Am I understanding this correctly -- Leiden only awards one gold, silver, and bronze scholarship respectively?
Am I understanding this correctly -- Leiden only awards one gold, silver, and bronze scholarship respectively?
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AgentSmith
Am I understanding this correctly -- Leiden only awards one gold, silver, and bronze scholarship respectively?


As I said in the previous post, I'm not 100% sure on this one. I would check with the university admin/website or the program coordinator.
<blockquote>Am I understanding this correctly -- Leiden only awards one gold, silver, and bronze scholarship respectively?</blockquote>

As I said in the previous post, I'm not 100% sure on this one. I would check with the university admin/website or the program coordinator.
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Anette
To answer your question about the LExS scholarships from Leiden, the Law School (who I work for) received a sum of money for the scholarship which is split up between the international law programmes. This works out (as there are many variants) to be approximately three gold scholarships per programme. This can vary from year to year depending on the funds available. Last year for example we awarded sixteen scholarships.
To answer your question about the LExS scholarships from Leiden, the Law School (who I work for) received a sum of money for the scholarship which is split up between the international law programmes. This works out (as there are many variants) to be approximately three gold scholarships per programme. This can vary from year to year depending on the funds available. Last year for example we awarded sixteen scholarships.
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AgentSmith
Without a scholarship or a significant reduction of the fee (don't settle for less than at least 50% of the price tag), the program is not worth it. For 15 000 + 15 000 more living costs and unpaid internships, you are coming close to Harvard fees.
Without a scholarship or a significant reduction of the fee (don't settle for less than at least 50% of the price tag), the program is not worth it. For 15 000 + 15 000 more living costs and unpaid internships, you are coming close to Harvard fees.
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