How is the reputation of U of Toronto law school from international perspective?


nicholas

Yeah, that's true. Hence, one should just be aware of the differences between coursework-intensive LLM in those faculty of law. Doing a coursework LLM at McGill is only one year (2 terms and summer terms) may be really hard, since you would need to take at least 5 courses per semester plus writing on your thesis... that a huge load.

Yeah, that's true. Hence, one should just be aware of the differences between coursework-intensive LLM in those faculty of law. Doing a coursework LLM at McGill is only one year (2 terms and summer terms) may be really hard, since you would need to take at least 5 courses per semester plus writing on your thesis... that a huge load.
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With respect to baystreetlawyer's observation that U of t requires a Bplus for llm applicants, which is lower than other schools, I would point out that this is simply the bare minimum--i.e. the line below which your application is thrown in the garbage. In reality, I think the u of t llm is a great deal more competative. I'm sure baystreet lawyer already knows this, I just thought I'd point it out in case some one gets the impression that they will likely be admitted with a bplus gpa.
Also, regarding the value of a foreign degree for academia, I think that, while not essential (obviously there aren't any hard and fast rules about these things), I think it is tremendously advantangeous to get a top ranked foerign degree if you want to have a fighting chance of landing a tenure-track position in a canadian law school.
I don't thinkl that looking at profs that graduated 20 years ago is terribly instructive, either; since the field has grown WAY more competative in the last fiive or so years (just consider that 7 or 8 years ago hardly any law profs in canda had doctorates, wheras now it has become almost a prerequisite to getting a tenure track appointment).

With respect to baystreetlawyer's observation that U of t requires a Bplus for llm applicants, which is lower than other schools, I would point out that this is simply the bare minimum--i.e. the line below which your application is thrown in the garbage. In reality, I think the u of t llm is a great deal more competative. I'm sure baystreet lawyer already knows this, I just thought I'd point it out in case some one gets the impression that they will likely be admitted with a bplus gpa.
Also, regarding the value of a foreign degree for academia, I think that, while not essential (obviously there aren't any hard and fast rules about these things), I think it is tremendously advantangeous to get a top ranked foerign degree if you want to have a fighting chance of landing a tenure-track position in a canadian law school.
I don't thinkl that looking at profs that graduated 20 years ago is terribly instructive, either; since the field has grown WAY more competative in the last fiive or so years (just consider that 7 or 8 years ago hardly any law profs in canda had doctorates, wheras now it has become almost a prerequisite to getting a tenure track appointment).
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B+ is the minimum, that's true - though they usually attach a condition to an offer that the student graduates from the LL.B. / J.D. "with a minimum B+ average", meaning that even once you are admitted they are still only looking for that B+ average.

If you want to get into academia, it may be difficult if you have not done any research. A student could theoretically go to a very prestigious foreign law school and never write a single paper or get a publication credit. I don't think any amount of prestige will make up for a complete lack of a research track-record.

B+ is the minimum, that's true - though they usually attach a condition to an offer that the student graduates from the LL.B. / J.D. "with a minimum B+ average", meaning that even once you are admitted they are still only looking for that B+ average.

If you want to get into academia, it may be difficult if you have not done any research. A student could theoretically go to a very prestigious foreign law school and never write a single paper or get a publication credit. I don't think any amount of prestige will make up for a complete lack of a research track-record.
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I agree, baystreetlaywer. In fact, I have been cautioned specifically that if I want to pursue an academic career, that I should be sure to take a thesis based LLM.

Also, Faculty hiring criteria are explicit, and worded with astonishing similarity, that faculties require evidence of "a strong track record of, or strong potential for, conducting research".

I agree, baystreetlaywer. In fact, I have been cautioned specifically that if I want to pursue an academic career, that I should be sure to take a thesis based LLM.

Also, Faculty hiring criteria are explicit, and worded with astonishing similarity, that faculties require evidence of "a strong track record of, or strong potential for, conducting research".
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Out of curiosity, how would you guys rate the LLM/PHD programmes of other well regarded Candaian law schools (Dalhousie, UBC, Osgoode, UVIc) in terms of international reputation?

Out of curiosity, how would you guys rate the LLM/PHD programmes of other well regarded Candaian law schools (Dalhousie, UBC, Osgoode, UVIc) in terms of international reputation?
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arano

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baystreetlaywer, what do you think??

baystreetlaywer, what do you think??
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Nicholas, what do you think??

Nicholas, what do you think??
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MT

Out of curiosity, how would you guys rate the LLM/PHD programmes of other well regarded Candaian law schools (Dalhousie, UBC, Osgoode, UVIc) in terms of international reputation?


I would say this pretty much depends on different strengths of each university, rather than adopt a one-size-fits-all approach. I did my LLM in Law and Technology in Ottawa, and now I am in Oxford doing a DPhil...

<blockquote>Out of curiosity, how would you guys rate the LLM/PHD programmes of other well regarded Candaian law schools (Dalhousie, UBC, Osgoode, UVIc) in terms of international reputation?</blockquote>

I would say this pretty much depends on different strengths of each university, rather than adopt a one-size-fits-all approach. I did my LLM in Law and Technology in Ottawa, and now I am in Oxford doing a DPhil...
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Jai1

Dear mt2006,

I have sent you a PM for your opinion. Please advise

Best Regards

Dear mt2006,

I have sent you a PM for your opinion. Please advise

Best Regards

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dmannell

Hello everyone,



I really need help and fast. I have been accepted into the LLM program at UofT and UPENN. I have very limited financial assistance and it seems almost impossible to afford a 70$US at UPENN vs UofT (only 7,000$CAN for Canadian citizen).



Is there anyone that did the UofT LLM and highly recommends it to me? If yes, I would like to know what are the job prospects in Canada and/or the USA with an LLM from UofT.


I NEED ASAP ADVICES AS TO WHETHER IT IS WORTH TRYING TO FIND THE MONEY FOR UPENN OR GO FOR THE CHEAPEST AND SIMPLEST OPTION IN TORONTO.



THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR OPINIONS

Hello everyone,



I really need help and fast. I have been accepted into the LLM program at UofT and UPENN. I have very limited financial assistance and it seems almost impossible to afford a 70$US at UPENN vs UofT (only 7,000$CAN for Canadian citizen).



Is there anyone that did the UofT LLM and highly recommends it to me? If yes, I would like to know what are the job prospects in Canada and/or the USA with an LLM from UofT.


I NEED ASAP ADVICES AS TO WHETHER IT IS WORTH TRYING TO FIND THE MONEY FOR UPENN OR GO FOR THE CHEAPEST AND SIMPLEST OPTION IN TORONTO.



THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR OPINIONS
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Unfortunately, it is hard to give you much advice without knowing more about your situation. For instance, did you do an LLB/are you admitted in Canada already? If so, then the UT LLM would probably help with job prospects in Canada (and possibly the US, depending on what you focused on, though the US legal market is so bad right now, I would not expect to find anything pretty much ever). If not, the LLM will not on its own qualify you to practice in Canada, so it will not substantially increase your job prospects (unless you simultaneously go through the NCA process).

As for UPenn, it might slightly increase your odds of getting a job in the US, but those odds are so low right now (astronomically low), that it would probably be a waste to spend $70k just for that. Depending on your background, it may also help you get admitted to a bar in the US (notably the New York bar), but if you have a common law degree you can do that already without the LLM. But if there is some specific area you want to focus on or you really want to end up in Philadelphia or something, then UPenn might make more sense.

My gut instinct on this is that there is no way that UPenn is worth 10x as much as Toronto. I doubt in the first instance that it is really that much better (at least in law) than Toronto, but I really doubt that it is 10x better. Again, maybe your specific circumstances would change that - if you really wanted an American degree in order to position yourself better for cross-border work or something - but I can't really advise to that based on what you've told us.

Unfortunately, it is hard to give you much advice without knowing more about your situation. For instance, did you do an LLB/are you admitted in Canada already? If so, then the UT LLM would probably help with job prospects in Canada (and possibly the US, depending on what you focused on, though the US legal market is so bad right now, I would not expect to find anything pretty much ever). If not, the LLM will not on its own qualify you to practice in Canada, so it will not substantially increase your job prospects (unless you simultaneously go through the NCA process).

As for UPenn, it might slightly increase your odds of getting a job in the US, but those odds are so low right now (astronomically low), that it would probably be a waste to spend $70k just for that. Depending on your background, it may also help you get admitted to a bar in the US (notably the New York bar), but if you have a common law degree you can do that already without the LLM. But if there is some specific area you want to focus on or you really want to end up in Philadelphia or something, then UPenn might make more sense.

My gut instinct on this is that there is no way that UPenn is worth 10x as much as Toronto. I doubt in the first instance that it is really that much better (at least in law) than Toronto, but I really doubt that it is 10x better. Again, maybe your specific circumstances would change that - if you really wanted an American degree in order to position yourself better for cross-border work or something - but I can't really advise to that based on what you've told us.
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dmannell

Hello NYC_Charles,

Thank you very much for your reply. I amk graduating from Trinity College Dublin ( 4-year common law degree) with high marks (2:1). I will also sit the New York Bar this july.

I fully agree with you that Toronto is not worth less 10x than UPENN. I really want to do an LLM in the USA, but I was thinking to defer for a year, go through the NCA process (Quebec and Ontario BArs) and apply for an Harvard or Columbia LLM (I want to speciliaze in corporate laws, financial regulations and securities laws).

What do you think? Should I wait one year to get the funding for the USA, pass the Canadian Bars and aim for the best at Harvard (dream of mine), or simply go to Toronto (only 7,000$CAN for Canadian citizens).

I am kindly seeking for your blunt opinion on this on. I have to make up my mind within the next month.

All the best,

Dom

Hello NYC_Charles,

Thank you very much for your reply. I amk graduating from Trinity College Dublin ( 4-year common law degree) with high marks (2:1). I will also sit the New York Bar this july.

I fully agree with you that Toronto is not worth less 10x than UPENN. I really want to do an LLM in the USA, but I was thinking to defer for a year, go through the NCA process (Quebec and Ontario BArs) and apply for an Harvard or Columbia LLM (I want to speciliaze in corporate laws, financial regulations and securities laws).

What do you think? Should I wait one year to get the funding for the USA, pass the Canadian Bars and aim for the best at Harvard (dream of mine), or simply go to Toronto (only 7,000$CAN for Canadian citizens).

I am kindly seeking for your blunt opinion on this on. I have to make up my mind within the next month.

All the best,

Dom
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dmannell

NYC_Charles,

I also forgot to mention that I have applied to NYU (corporation law) and LSE (corporate and securities laws) and still waiting for my admission answer. However, the financial circumstances surrounding my decision will remain the same, i.e. this year I cannot obtain a loan of 40 to 50K.....

There are two options:
1- wait for a year and pass the NYB and Canadian Bars an try to get the funding and re-apply to the best US LLMs (HLS, SLS, CLS, NYU, UPENN/Wharton) for corporate law
2- I simply to University of Toronto LLM and forget the USA and try to get a job in Toronto, Montreal (Once I have passed the Quebec/Ontario Bars)

That being said, I would love to work as lawyer in a big NYC Firm so I presume doing a US LLM would make a lot of sense.

What do you thinki of all of that?

All the best,

Dom

NYC_Charles,

I also forgot to mention that I have applied to NYU (corporation law) and LSE (corporate and securities laws) and still waiting for my admission answer. However, the financial circumstances surrounding my decision will remain the same, i.e. this year I cannot obtain a loan of 40 to 50K.....

There are two options:
1- wait for a year and pass the NYB and Canadian Bars an try to get the funding and re-apply to the best US LLMs (HLS, SLS, CLS, NYU, UPENN/Wharton) for corporate law
2- I simply to University of Toronto LLM and forget the USA and try to get a job in Toronto, Montreal (Once I have passed the Quebec/Ontario Bars)

That being said, I would love to work as lawyer in a big NYC Firm so I presume doing a US LLM would make a lot of sense.

What do you thinki of all of that?

All the best,

Dom
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Okay, this is just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. In your situation, I would probably end up going for the Toronto LLM, since it is from a world-class university and 1/10 the cost. Plus, doing it along with the NCA process may ultimately allow you to get admitted in Canada (though my understanding is that they will probably require you to do more tests and such since you have not been in practice in Ireland).

Also, I want to repeat something I mentioned previously - with a common law degree from Dublin, you should be able to sit for the New York state bar now (check out http://www.courts.state.ny.us/CTAPPS/520rules.htm#6 for the specific rule governing the situation). After a year at Toronto, you could theoretically find yourself in a situation where you are admitted in both Ontario and New York.

As for getting a job in New York, it's really tough right now. I'm fortunate enough not to have been laid off over the past couple of years, but a huge number of my friends have been. And my other friends and acquaintainces getting out of law school are having an awful time finding jobs. It's just awful and I doubt it will be much better in the foreseeable future (as the market is glutted with recent grads and laid off former associates, all competing with the people still in school). So it is more important than ever to distinguish yourself in some way. If you really wanted a job at a New York corporate firm, I think the best thing you could do would be to get yourself admitted in Ireland as well as New York. I have no idea what that requires and it may very well be out of the question due to the need to first find a training position, etc., but some of the big international firms do love to find people who can bring in knowledge of and ability to practice in a foreign jurisdiction. Canada is a nice second option, though it's much more common here (I've known quite a few Toronto/McGill grads who've come to New York).

Okay, this is just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. In your situation, I would probably end up going for the Toronto LLM, since it is from a world-class university and 1/10 the cost. Plus, doing it along with the NCA process may ultimately allow you to get admitted in Canada (though my understanding is that they will probably require you to do more tests and such since you have not been in practice in Ireland).

Also, I want to repeat something I mentioned previously - with a common law degree from Dublin, you should be able to sit for the New York state bar now (check out http://www.courts.state.ny.us/CTAPPS/520rules.htm#6 for the specific rule governing the situation). After a year at Toronto, you could theoretically find yourself in a situation where you are admitted in both Ontario and New York.

As for getting a job in New York, it's really tough right now. I'm fortunate enough not to have been laid off over the past couple of years, but a huge number of my friends have been. And my other friends and acquaintainces getting out of law school are having an awful time finding jobs. It's just awful and I doubt it will be much better in the foreseeable future (as the market is glutted with recent grads and laid off former associates, all competing with the people still in school). So it is more important than ever to distinguish yourself in some way. If you really wanted a job at a New York corporate firm, I think the best thing you could do would be to get yourself admitted in Ireland as well as New York. I have no idea what that requires and it may very well be out of the question due to the need to first find a training position, etc., but some of the big international firms do love to find people who can bring in knowledge of and ability to practice in a foreign jurisdiction. Canada is a nice second option, though it's much more common here (I've known quite a few Toronto/McGill grads who've come to New York).
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dmannell

Hello NYC_Charles,

I thank you for those comments. really helpful!!! I will sit the NYB in July. Perhaps the Toronto option becomes more relevant due to the fact that I want to practice law there and live there with my girlfriend.

As for New York, I know it seems awful to find any sort of law-related job right now. The markets will pick up at some stage, but people are aldeay competiting against each other in NYC..anyway.

As for Ireland, it is very insightful of you to suggest it, though unrealistc and funny!!! I have been there for 5 years and I cant wait to get the hell of this bankrupt country. Jobs are way worst than in NY-they are non-existent.

I think Ill go with the Toronto option and maybe do an LLM at Harvard after gaining a couple years of corporate working experience.

All the best,

Dom

Hello NYC_Charles,

I thank you for those comments. really helpful!!! I will sit the NYB in July. Perhaps the Toronto option becomes more relevant due to the fact that I want to practice law there and live there with my girlfriend.

As for New York, I know it seems awful to find any sort of law-related job right now. The markets will pick up at some stage, but people are aldeay competiting against each other in NYC..anyway.

As for Ireland, it is very insightful of you to suggest it, though unrealistc and funny!!! I have been there for 5 years and I cant wait to get the hell of this bankrupt country. Jobs are way worst than in NY-they are non-existent.

I think Ill go with the Toronto option and maybe do an LLM at Harvard after gaining a couple years of corporate working experience.

All the best,

Dom
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dmannell

For the NCA process, its all sorter because I already hold a certificate in laws from MOntreal University and they told me ill probably have only 2-3 "challenged exams" to take before being eligible for the licensing process. I would like to qualify in both Quebec (home is Montreal) and Ontario!!! Im sure I would be a great candidate with 3 bars (invlduing NYB) in my pocket and an LLM from Toronto? What do you think?

Bottom line, are you suggesting that the US LLM is pointless at this point?

Thanks a mil!:)

Dom

For the NCA process, its all sorter because I already hold a certificate in laws from MOntreal University and they told me ill probably have only 2-3 "challenged exams" to take before being eligible for the licensing process. I would like to qualify in both Quebec (home is Montreal) and Ontario!!! Im sure I would be a great candidate with 3 bars (invlduing NYB) in my pocket and an LLM from Toronto? What do you think?

Bottom line, are you suggesting that the US LLM is pointless at this point?

Thanks a mil!:)

Dom
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Kerfuffle

Dmannell, do you have PR status in Canada? If so, it might not cost much more to do a JD/LLB in two years instead of doing the LLM. You then end up more employable and you don't have to do the NCA exams.

Most of my friends have done the professional part-time LLM at Osgoode (while doing the NCA exams or working if they are already qualified). UoT arguably has a better brand name from an international perspective, but I find the Canadian law school most well-known internationally is McGill.

Dmannell, do you have PR status in Canada? If so, it might not cost much more to do a JD/LLB in two years instead of doing the LLM. You then end up more employable and you don't have to do the NCA exams.

Most of my friends have done the professional part-time LLM at Osgoode (while doing the NCA exams or working if they are already qualified). UoT arguably has a better brand name from an international perspective, but I find the Canadian law school most well-known internationally is McGill.
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dmannell

Kerfuffle,

Interesting your arguments put forward, but I really want to go to the US. I will probably wait one year, pass the Quebec and Ontario Bars and apply to Harvard, Columbia or do the UPENN/Wharton Certtificate. It cannot get any bettern, from a corporate poit of view, than all of those options. Toronto does not belong to the same league.

I am a Canadian citizen from Montreal and frankly I do not want to spend an extra 2 years at Law School. I think that for me it would be a waste of previous time and money.

I know that Osgoode offers a JD/LLB with NYU, but I have passed the deadline, so its a little ridiculous for me to even think about doing it. As for McGill, it enjoys great international reputation, however, I do not want to spend an extra 3 years in University.....

Anyhow,what are ur thoughts for the US LLMs?

Kerfuffle,

Interesting your arguments put forward, but I really want to go to the US. I will probably wait one year, pass the Quebec and Ontario Bars and apply to Harvard, Columbia or do the UPENN/Wharton Certtificate. It cannot get any bettern, from a corporate poit of view, than all of those options. Toronto does not belong to the same league.

I am a Canadian citizen from Montreal and frankly I do not want to spend an extra 2 years at Law School. I think that for me it would be a waste of previous time and money.

I know that Osgoode offers a JD/LLB with NYU, but I have passed the deadline, so its a little ridiculous for me to even think about doing it. As for McGill, it enjoys great international reputation, however, I do not want to spend an extra 3 years in University.....

Anyhow,what are ur thoughts for the US LLMs?
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