Yale 12th? Stanford not even top 20?


Hedek
Hello fellow LLM-Guiders, while browsing the web, I stumbled upon a quite surprising website: http://www.auap.com/llm.html

Has anyone heard of them? Let alone used their service? It looks similar to the service provided by LSAC only more expensive?
https://llm.lsac.org/llm/logon/splash.aspx

Now I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt... until I saw their "world's only LLM ranking"!
Students who accepted Cornell's offer will be happy to know they're heading to the best LLM program in the USA!

Yale only pales in comparison to such prestigious schools as Fordham, Boston University, Cardozo, or George Washington.

Georgetown only ranks 20 apparently because "[it] is not recommended for bar examinations", why? because "[they] said [so] in their own pages"!
The funny thing about Georgetown is they're simply being honest about it. Many courses will qualify for NY Bar eligibility as much as any other ABA accredited law school in the USA.
GU is cautious enough to warn prospective international students that an LLM is not a sufficient and adequate preparation to the NY bar, especially when compared to JD students who spent the last 3 years studying American law. This warning applies to any other school, including HYS, but GU is the only school, AFAIK, that openly states so on its website.

And Stanford? What a ridiculous school, it didn't even make it in the top 20! Surely their LLM program must be a joke.

Now seriously, what's up with all these rankings? There's a lot that could be said about US News, and I'm among the most virulent ones in this board when it comes to criticizing them. But even I admit their ranking is rather accurate at predicting how much we'll be sought after by recruiters.

Perhaps one day we'll have an honest ranking of LLM programs based on: applicants to class size ratio, acceptance ratio, accepted offers ratio, employment rate upon graduation, and perhaps NY bar passage rate.

So just out of curiosity, has anyone used AUAP's service? If this ranking at least puts a smile on your face, then my thread won't be totally useless, and if it also prevents prospective students from potentially wasting $2500, I'll be even happier.
Hello fellow LLM-Guiders, while browsing the web, I stumbled upon a quite surprising website: http://www.auap.com/llm.html

Has anyone heard of them? Let alone used their service? It looks similar to the service provided by LSAC only more expensive?
https://llm.lsac.org/llm/logon/splash.aspx

Now I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt... until I saw their "world's only LLM ranking"!
Students who accepted Cornell's offer will be happy to know they're heading to the best LLM program in the USA!

Yale only pales in comparison to such prestigious schools as Fordham, Boston University, Cardozo, or George Washington.

Georgetown only ranks 20 apparently because "[it] is not recommended for bar examinations", why? because "[they] said [so] in their own pages"!
The funny thing about Georgetown is they're simply being honest about it. Many courses will qualify for NY Bar eligibility as much as any other ABA accredited law school in the USA.
GU is cautious enough to warn prospective international students that an LLM is not a sufficient and adequate preparation to the NY bar, especially when compared to JD students who spent the last 3 years studying American law. This warning applies to any other school, including HYS, but GU is the only school, AFAIK, that openly states so on its website.

And Stanford? What a ridiculous school, it didn't even make it in the top 20! Surely their LLM program must be a joke.

Now seriously, what's up with all these rankings? There's a lot that could be said about US News, and I'm among the most virulent ones in this board when it comes to criticizing them. But even I admit their ranking is rather accurate at predicting how much we'll be sought after by recruiters.

Perhaps one day we'll have an honest ranking of LLM programs based on: applicants to class size ratio, acceptance ratio, accepted offers ratio, employment rate upon graduation, and perhaps NY bar passage rate.

So just out of curiosity, has anyone used AUAP's service? If this ranking at least puts a smile on your face, then my thread won't be totally useless, and if it also prevents prospective students from potentially wasting $2500, I'll be even happier.
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Gregor2009
Let's hope I get a Cornell offer later this week!
Let's hope I get a Cornell offer later this week!
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Hedek
And I'd also like to link to UChicago Professor Leiter's April 9th entry on US News imminent 2009 rankings:
http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2009/04/an-open-letter.html

"When the new rankings come out in a couple of weeks, may I suggest that you not post the overall ranking. You all know the overall rank assigned to a school by U.S. News is meaningless, often perniciously so. It combines too many factors, in an inexplicable formula, and much of the underlying data isn't reliable, and some of it (e.g., expenditures on secretarial salaries and electriciy) isn't even relevant. You all know this. So don't report it. The fact that this garbage appears in a major 'news' magazine doesn't change the fact that it is garbage.

Instead, let me suggest that if you want to blog about the rankings when they come out, write about some of the underlying data that speaks for itself: the reputational scores, for example, or the bar passage rates, or the numerical credentials of the students. Those have limitations too--the median of 500 is not really comparable to the median of 200; the reputation scores are not based on presenting evaluators with any information about the schools being evaluated; and so on--but one can at least say clearly what the limitations are, and one is not hostage either to the dishonesty of the schools "reporting" the data or the sheer idiocy of the U.S. News ranking formula."
And I'd also like to link to UChicago Professor Leiter's April 9th entry on US News imminent 2009 rankings:
http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2009/04/an-open-letter.html

"When the new rankings come out in a couple of weeks, may I suggest that you not post the overall ranking. You all know the overall rank assigned to a school by U.S. News is meaningless, often perniciously so. It combines too many factors, in an inexplicable formula, and much of the underlying data isn't reliable, and some of it (e.g., expenditures on secretarial salaries and electriciy) isn't even relevant. You all know this. So don't report it. The fact that this garbage appears in a major 'news' magazine doesn't change the fact that it is garbage.

Instead, let me suggest that if you want to blog about the rankings when they come out, write about some of the underlying data that speaks for itself: the reputational scores, for example, or the bar passage rates, or the numerical credentials of the students. Those have limitations too--the median of 500 is not really comparable to the median of 200; the reputation scores are not based on presenting evaluators with any information about the schools being evaluated; and so on--but one can at least say clearly what the limitations are, and one is not hostage either to the dishonesty of the schools "reporting" the data or the sheer idiocy of the U.S. News ranking formula."
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Santa
The auap ranking is just ridiculous :)

Just follow the USNews ranking and use it as you wish.
The auap ranking is just ridiculous :)

Just follow the USNews ranking and use it as you wish.
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york
A few years ago, AUAP couldn't even spell the names of some schools in their "ranking": http://www.llm-guide.com/board/1676
A few years ago, AUAP couldn't even spell the names of some schools in their "ranking": http://www.llm-guide.com/board/1676
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Llisbon
Obviously , this ranking is a complete fraud
but what do you all think of the attached link?It would be interesting to get any opinions out there (sorry but the article is in Spanish)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6ooPycs1Mok/ScY_2M262JI/AAAAAAAAcTw/9uSD8yiCflg/s1600-h/Master+Derecho+1.jpg
Obviously , this ranking is a complete fraud
but what do you all think of the attached link?It would be interesting to get any opinions out there (sorry but the article is in Spanish)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6ooPycs1Mok/ScY_2M262JI/AAAAAAAAcTw/9uSD8yiCflg/s1600-h/Master+Derecho+1.jpg

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yasminm
My best guess is that the AUAP rankings are motivated by where their own students end up, i.e. making sure that they themselves make their students feel like they achieved something after using AUAP's services. It should be no surprise then that the first four universities are all universities that their students have entered into, with HLS and YLS lower down in the scale because although it would appear that their students were not admitted into either institution (see also http://www.auap.com/welcome_popup.html), any person worth his salt would know the rankings are clearly off if neither HLS or YLS are on it (though as one of you pointed out, its suprising, even if it were structured that way, that SLS was not on it).
My best guess is that the AUAP rankings are motivated by where their own students end up, i.e. making sure that they themselves make their students feel like they achieved something after using AUAP's services. It should be no surprise then that the first four universities are all universities that their students have entered into, with HLS and YLS lower down in the scale because although it would appear that their students were not admitted into either institution (see also http://www.auap.com/welcome_popup.html), any person worth his salt would know the rankings are clearly off if neither HLS or YLS are on it (though as one of you pointed out, its suprising, even if it were structured that way, that SLS was not on it).
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koala
Just one ranking among others...The truth is that none of these rankings is objective anyway but it is surprising that a university with such a reputable brand as Stanford is not listed. I know that LLMs cannot be ranked like undergraduate studies but in the end the prestige of your degree will be measured on the basis of your university's reputation...and for that matter it is hard to beat HYS...
Just one ranking among others...The truth is that none of these rankings is objective anyway but it is surprising that a university with such a reputable brand as Stanford is not listed. I know that LLMs cannot be ranked like undergraduate studies but in the end the prestige of your degree will be measured on the basis of your university's reputation...and for that matter it is hard to beat HYS...
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Hedek
Obviously , this ranking is a complete fraud
but what do you all think of the attached link?It would be interesting to get any opinions out there (sorry but the article is in Spanish)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6ooPycs1Mok/ScY_2M262JI/AAAAAAAAcTw/9uSD8yiCflg/s1600-h/Master+Derecho+1.jpg
Lisbon, this ranking, while unusual for Americans, is far from ridiculous from a European point of view. In no particular order, the 10 names listed by El Mundo are pretty much the most well known and respected law schools in Europe.

The College of Europe (along with The Hague Academy of International law) is an extremely prestigious institution among non native English speaking European scholars.
I'm a bit surprised by the absence of Oxbridge though.

And the listing of Georgetown before other prestigious law schools e.g. UMichigan, UChicago, UPenn, or UVA confirms the prominent position of these universities inside the USA and their name brand deficit abroad.

As unfair as it might be, being called "University of [state/city]" is a handicap. People have the impression they're generic state school and remember "first names" such as "Princeton, Cornell, Yale, etc." more easily.

Fortunately, decent law firm recruiters recognize the true value of "University of" law schools so, except for showing off in foreign rankings, it's not really a problem.
<blockquote>Obviously , this ranking is a complete fraud
but what do you all think of the attached link?It would be interesting to get any opinions out there (sorry but the article is in Spanish)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6ooPycs1Mok/ScY_2M262JI/AAAAAAAAcTw/9uSD8yiCflg/s1600-h/Master+Derecho+1.jpg
</blockquote>Lisbon, this ranking, while unusual for Americans, is far from ridiculous from a European point of view. In no particular order, the 10 names listed by El Mundo are pretty much the most well known and respected law schools in Europe.

The College of Europe (along with The Hague Academy of International law) is an extremely prestigious institution among non native English speaking European scholars.
I'm a bit surprised by the absence of Oxbridge though.

And the listing of Georgetown before other prestigious law schools e.g. UMichigan, UChicago, UPenn, or UVA confirms the prominent position of these universities inside the USA and their name brand deficit abroad.

As unfair as it might be, being called "University of [state/city]" is a handicap. People have the impression they're generic state school and remember "first names" such as "Princeton, Cornell, Yale, etc." more easily.

Fortunately, decent law firm recruiters recognize the true value of "University of" law schools so, except for showing off in foreign rankings, it's not really a problem.
quote
Llisbon
Hedek : I agree with you. I do not think this ranking is ridiculous. On the contrary, all the universities mentioned are prestigious and have well known LLM programs.
I was just interested in getting other opinions.
Hedek : I agree with you. I do not think this ranking is ridiculous. On the contrary, all the universities mentioned are prestigious and have well known LLM programs.
I was just interested in getting other opinions.
quote
Hedek
Hedek : I agree with you. I do not think this ranking is ridiculous. On the contrary, all the universities mentioned are prestigious and have well known LLM programs.
I was just interested in getting other opinions.


I've read the article, they do cite Oxford and Cambridge, but they don't explain why these two didn't make it in "el top ten"? Coming from El Mundo, I'm puzzled? What would be your explanation? Is it because they don't have real LLM programs?
<blockquote>Hedek : I agree with you. I do not think this ranking is ridiculous. On the contrary, all the universities mentioned are prestigious and have well known LLM programs.
I was just interested in getting other opinions.
</blockquote>

I've read the article, they do cite Oxford and Cambridge, but they don't explain why these two didn't make it in "el top ten"? Coming from El Mundo, I'm puzzled? What would be your explanation? Is it because they don't have real LLM programs?
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Llisbon
I'm puzzled as well. I think Cambridge has an LLM program. Oxford has a BCL and MPhil (although I am not sure). Anyway, I was glad they mentioned KCL in the top ten as I will be going there this coming year!
I'm puzzled as well. I think Cambridge has an LLM program. Oxford has a BCL and MPhil (although I am not sure). Anyway, I was glad they mentioned KCL in the top ten as I will be going there this coming year!
quote
I'm puzzled as well. I think Cambridge has an LLM program. Oxford has a BCL and MPhil (although I am not sure). Anyway, I was glad they mentioned KCL in the top ten as I will be going there this coming year!


Kinda boring ranking. Without a reasoning in their resource, this can not be put too much weight. By the way, when is the us news ranking of this year coming out. We just want to see the us ranking.
Other rankings can be supplementary. Moreover, students are judged by the us new ranlking instaed of the LLM ranking.
Which law firm will watch this, and then appraise, you are good because you are a graduate from .....based on the LLM ranking.
<blockquote>I'm puzzled as well. I think Cambridge has an LLM program. Oxford has a BCL and MPhil (although I am not sure). Anyway, I was glad they mentioned KCL in the top ten as I will be going there this coming year!</blockquote>

Kinda boring ranking. Without a reasoning in their resource, this can not be put too much weight. By the way, when is the us news ranking of this year coming out. We just want to see the us ranking.
Other rankings can be supplementary. Moreover, students are judged by the us new ranlking instaed of the LLM ranking.
Which law firm will watch this, and then appraise, you are good because you are a graduate from .....based on the LLM ranking.
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Santa
23rd of April :)
23rd of April :)
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Gloss
Please dont waste your time looking at this ranking.... we all know that the US News ranking is the only one that counts. Vault is starting to be considered, but not even close to US News. This ranking is a fraud, it does not explain the methodoly and does not give any information on how they reach the results. It is clear that they are including only the universities that they place their students in. Rankings should be considered not because we want, but because the market wants. All big law firms take the US News ranking into account. Unfortunately, you cant run from it if you want to work in the US.
Please dont waste your time looking at this ranking.... we all know that the US News ranking is the only one that counts. Vault is starting to be considered, but not even close to US News. This ranking is a fraud, it does not explain the methodoly and does not give any information on how they reach the results. It is clear that they are including only the universities that they place their students in. Rankings should be considered not because we want, but because the market wants. All big law firms take the US News ranking into account. Unfortunately, you cant run from it if you want to work in the US.
quote
nicolas_a
auap is just a blatent fraud...

however, the press article from el mundo seems to be a quite accurate analysis... it may look like a blend of popularization and "brand over academics" but it's pretty relevant as far as europe is concerned
auap is just a blatent fraud...

however, the press article from el mundo seems to be a quite accurate analysis... it may look like a blend of popularization and "brand over academics" but it's pretty relevant as far as europe is concerned
quote
nicolas_a
btw what's the difference between estados unidos & eeuu ?
btw what's the difference between estados unidos & eeuu ?
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Hedek
btw what's the difference between estados unidos & eeuu ?


None. It's a latin heritage when turning plural words into acronmys. Same with "LLM", it's Legum Magister. Master of Laws hence the double LL. Had it been "Master of Law" it would be "LM".
<blockquote>btw what's the difference between estados unidos & eeuu ?</blockquote>

None. It's a latin heritage when turning plural words into acronmys. Same with "LLM", it's Legum Magister. Master of Laws hence the double LL. Had it been "Master of Law" it would be "LM".
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nicolas_a
I don't get why the press article from el mundo uses both actually !
I don't get why the press article from el mundo uses both actually !
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Gloss
This ranking from El Mundo seems interesting but only for Spanish lawyers. In some countries certain schools have more influence because their alumni is very strong. This is the case of Northwestern and Urbana-Champaign in Argentina, for example. For some reason, lots of people from Argentina join to these schools and important partners of big law firms are alumni of these schools. In the US, keep in mind that (unfortunately) the US News is The Ranking and it really works when you are trying to find a job. It is stupid, but its the truth...
This ranking from El Mundo seems interesting but only for Spanish lawyers. In some countries certain schools have more influence because their alumni is very strong. This is the case of Northwestern and Urbana-Champaign in Argentina, for example. For some reason, lots of people from Argentina join to these schools and important partners of big law firms are alumni of these schools. In the US, keep in mind that (unfortunately) the US News is The Ranking and it really works when you are trying to find a job. It is stupid, but its the truth...
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