Penn LLM (general) v. Northwestern (general)


bonzo

I have been waitlisted at Penn, but admitted to Northwestern (Gen LLM) and G-Town(Gen LLM). Really, confused if Penn admits me, to decide between Penn LLM (general) and Northwestern (general) for a corporate law focussed program.

Please advise, as I would want a law school which takes special interest in its LLM students and also works hard at their job placements. I have heard good things about NU in this regard, but really dunt have much info on Penn.

Information in this regard, would be appreciated. Thanks.

I have been waitlisted at Penn, but admitted to Northwestern (Gen LLM) and G-Town(Gen LLM). Really, confused if Penn admits me, to decide between Penn LLM (general) and Northwestern (general) for a corporate law focussed program.

Please advise, as I would want a law school which takes special interest in its LLM students and also works hard at their job placements. I have heard good things about NU in this regard, but really dunt have much info on Penn.

Information in this regard, would be appreciated. Thanks.
quote
hoko

IMHO NU has a much better progam than Penn for international lawyers. From they offer an accelerated JD to the effort the put into LLM students, it is clearly a better choice for people with your background.

Penn is a good school. Like many other good law school, LLM seemed to be a money-maker for them to subsidies their prof salary. Their choice of courses aren't that great either.

G-Town doesn't even come close to NU's class. Since you already have NU's offer, I would just take NU and enjoy the summer (or winter, depending where you are from!)

IMHO NU has a much better progam than Penn for international lawyers. From they offer an accelerated JD to the effort the put into LLM students, it is clearly a better choice for people with your background.

Penn is a good school. Like many other good law school, LLM seemed to be a money-maker for them to subsidies their prof salary. Their choice of courses aren't that great either.

G-Town doesn't even come close to NU's class. Since you already have NU's offer, I would just take NU and enjoy the summer (or winter, depending where you are from!)
quote
Hedek

G-Town doesn't even come close to NU's class.


Based on what?
US News ranking? If we were comparing GTown with HYSCCN, then yes it matters.

Based on class size? According to the Financial Times in 2008, Georgetown had 293 full time LLM students and Northwestern 246 (total with part-time students 395 vs 252). Georgetown has more professors and courses so actual class size is similar if not better at GU. If we were comparing to Stanford's 30 or UVA's 35, then yes class size difference would matter.
Source: http://media.ft.com/cms/af0de6ee-aaa7-11dd-897c-000077b07658.pdf

If we were comparing Northwestern + Kellog vs GTown then yes the value and name brand difference would also matter.

Regardless, bonzo has already decided between GU and Northwestern and does not ask for feedback about GU so why this gratuitous bashing hoko?

Bonzo, between Penn and Northwestern, they're both well-known for corporate law. UPenn does have a better "history" and "lay men" prestige, mostly thanks to its Ivy League status, but that doesn't mean much as far as law schools are concerned.
I'd recommend choosing based on location, where would you rather live? You're going to spend at least a year there, might as well enjoy it. The ranking and prestige difference isn't enough to justify giving up Chicago if you really like it there. Did you visit both law schools and cities? Most people seem to prefer Chicago, and Northwestern Law School is probably located in the best area of Chicago.

As you said, Northwestern is also very active and involved in helping their students find jobs. For example: http://abovethelaw.com/2009/03/northwestern_law_students_snub.php?show=comments

Good luck.

<blockquote>G-Town doesn't even come close to NU's class.</blockquote>

Based on what?
US News ranking? If we were comparing GTown with HYSCCN, then yes it matters.

Based on class size? According to the Financial Times in 2008, Georgetown had 293 full time LLM students and Northwestern 246 (total with part-time students 395 vs 252). Georgetown has more professors and courses so actual class size is similar if not better at GU. If we were comparing to Stanford's 30 or UVA's 35, then yes class size difference would matter.
Source: http://media.ft.com/cms/af0de6ee-aaa7-11dd-897c-000077b07658.pdf

If we were comparing Northwestern + Kellog vs GTown then yes the value and name brand difference would also matter.

Regardless, bonzo has already decided between GU and Northwestern and does not ask for feedback about GU so why this gratuitous bashing hoko?

Bonzo, between Penn and Northwestern, they're both well-known for corporate law. UPenn does have a better "history" and "lay men" prestige, mostly thanks to its Ivy League status, but that doesn't mean much as far as law schools are concerned.
I'd recommend choosing based on location, where would you rather live? You're going to spend at least a year there, might as well enjoy it. The ranking and prestige difference isn't enough to justify giving up Chicago if you really like it there. Did you visit both law schools and cities? Most people seem to prefer Chicago, and Northwestern Law School is probably located in the best area of Chicago.

As you said, Northwestern is also very active and involved in helping their students find jobs. For example: http://abovethelaw.com/2009/03/northwestern_law_students_snub.php?show=comments

Good luck.
quote

@ hoko , I am heading Upenn the upcoming year and quite frankly I have a doubt about my final decision , there was no rationality behind my decision, mere prestige and its reputation were the factors that inclined me to opt this university over Cornell ,UIUC,GT,GWU. Your comment mirrored all my doubt in to real fashion so any clue would help me to get over my dilemma.
Now could you simply tell me what Academic Criteria make NU better than Upenn?( in spite of Size of class and the advantage of obtaining JD degree)

@ hoko , I am heading Upenn the upcoming year and quite frankly I have a doubt about my final decision , there was no rationality behind my decision, mere prestige and its reputation were the factors that inclined me to opt this university over Cornell ,UIUC,GT,GWU. Your comment mirrored all my doubt in to real fashion so any clue would help me to get over my dilemma.
Now could you simply tell me what Academic Criteria make NU better than Upenn?( in spite of Size of class and the advantage of obtaining JD degree)
quote
imjohn

If reputation and prestige was the consideration then Cornell stands out Upenn anyday and an ivy too. Don't go on JDs ranking, thats a separate methodology and process. Look for firms and recruiters opinion and they take more interest in Cornell among your list of schools. GT is just a show case , admits from every nook and corner and really not much to offer academically except the location. The schools recent graduates even suggests this. They hire adhoc professors for their masters program and these guys don't care what they teach so you're on your own after nine months. Therefore, in my view among all these schools if you intend to pursue your masters program from east coast then Cornell seems best in your list of schools mentioned above.Northwestern is good among these if you don't mind going to mid west.
BTW, I am not going to either of these schools so no bias.

If reputation and prestige was the consideration then Cornell stands out Upenn anyday and an ivy too. Don't go on JDs ranking, thats a separate methodology and process. Look for firms and recruiters opinion and they take more interest in Cornell among your list of schools. GT is just a show case , admits from every nook and corner and really not much to offer academically except the location. The schools recent graduates even suggests this. They hire adhoc professors for their masters program and these guys don't care what they teach so you're on your own after nine months. Therefore, in my view among all these schools if you intend to pursue your masters program from east coast then Cornell seems best in your list of schools mentioned above.Northwestern is good among these if you don't mind going to mid west.
BTW, I am not going to either of these schools so no bias.
quote
bonzo

Hey Hoko and Hedek, apologies for the delay in replying, and I really appreciate your honest inputs. You concur my basic fears.

Btw, I pushed Penn for a reply and they rejected me. At least, I m relieved for now my decision is clear.

LLM incurs a massive investment, and youd rather be more than just a mere prop in an Ivy league school or a T14 school or God knows wherever. Had a word with a NU LLM alum, and he was very pleased with the law school in so far as it is sensitive to the different standards required for placing LLMs, and that it provides you with opportunities (markets ofcourse have a big role to play here). By placements, I look at not only the US but other global commercial centers as well. Personally, Im impressed by their business law curriculum and the projected employer focused approach.

Also, I always thought the NU class size was somewhere around 90- 100, please see link below:
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissions/profile/

(Can someone pls confirm).

@ imjohn: At GTown, with profs such as Don Langervoort, Steven C. Salop and Robert Pitofsky teaching the LLMs, I really dont think that is true. But then again its quite possible considering the class size and that it may be tough getting a class with them.

Well about Cornell, I really havent heard much about its program, and whatever lil I know just about rates it ok. I think you are bound to get better exposure at G-town / NU / Penn.

Best,

Hey Hoko and Hedek, apologies for the delay in replying, and I really appreciate your honest inputs. You concur my basic fears.

Btw, I pushed Penn for a reply and they rejected me. At least, I’ m relieved for now my decision is clear.

LLM incurs a massive investment, and you’d rather be more than just a mere prop in an Ivy league school or a T14 school or God knows wherever. Had a word with a NU LLM alum, and he was very pleased with the law school in so far as it is sensitive to the different standards required for placing LLMs, and that it provides you with opportunities (markets ofcourse have a big role to play here). By placements, I look at not only the US but other global commercial centers as well. Personally, I’m impressed by their business law curriculum and the projected employer focused approach.

Also, I always thought the NU class size was somewhere around 90- 100, please see link below:
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissions/profile/

(Can someone pls confirm).

@ imjohn: At GTown, with profs such as Don Langervoort, Steven C. Salop and Robert Pitofsky teaching the LLMs, I really don’t think that is true. But then again its quite possible considering the class size and that it may be tough getting a class with them.

Well about Cornell, I really haven’t heard much about its program, and whatever lil I know just about rates it ok. I think you are bound to get better exposure at G-town / NU / Penn.

Best,
quote
Hedek

Also, I always thought the NU class size was somewhere around 90- 100, please see link below:
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissions/profile/
(Can someone pls confirm).

You're a lawyer soon to graduate from one of the most prestigious US law school, so... don't forget to pay attention to the text in small font ;-)
The figures you linked to include only the General LLM (approx 95 enrolled in 2008) and the Law and Business LLM/Kellog (approx 25) so 120 total. International Human Rights, Executive, and Taxation LLMs aren't accounted for in this graph.
And I don't know whether joint JD/LLM students are included in those figures.

The Financial Times data seem more comprehensive.
http://media.ft.com/cms/af0de6ee-aaa7-11dd-897c-000077b07658.pdf

Regarding GTown I agree it might be tough getting spots with their most renown tenured professors. But, unlike many other law schools, being taught by their adjunct faculty isn't the end of the world either. I know this may sound like terrible bias, but GTown has one of the most prestigious adjunct faculty simply thanks to its location. Prominent members of the Federal administration might not have time to fly and give courses at Harvard or Yale on a weekly basis, but they can spare some an hour or two once a week to teach at the Law center next to the Capitol.

<blockquote>Also, I always thought the NU class size was somewhere around 90- 100, please see link below:
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissions/profile/
(Can someone pls confirm).
</blockquote>
You're a lawyer soon to graduate from one of the most prestigious US law school, so... don't forget to pay attention to the text in small font ;-)
The figures you linked to include only the General LLM (approx 95 enrolled in 2008) and the Law and Business LLM/Kellog (approx 25) so 120 total. International Human Rights, Executive, and Taxation LLMs aren't accounted for in this graph.
And I don't know whether joint JD/LLM students are included in those figures.

The Financial Times data seem more comprehensive.
http://media.ft.com/cms/af0de6ee-aaa7-11dd-897c-000077b07658.pdf

Regarding GTown I agree it might be tough getting spots with their most renown tenured professors. But, unlike many other law schools, being taught by their adjunct faculty isn't the end of the world either. I know this may sound like terrible bias, but GTown has one of the most prestigious adjunct faculty simply thanks to its location. Prominent members of the Federal administration might not have time to fly and give courses at Harvard or Yale on a weekly basis, but they can spare some an hour or two once a week to teach at the Law center next to the Capitol.
quote
xoca

Hi All,

I'm in a similar position to Bonzo, in that I have offers from both Georgetown and Northwestern and am finding it difficult to decide between the two. Both school have their strengths - NU is strong in corporate and better prepares its student for private practice but then GT is very international and a better recognised brand outside of the US.

Hi All,

I'm in a similar position to Bonzo, in that I have offers from both Georgetown and Northwestern and am finding it difficult to decide between the two. Both school have their strengths - NU is strong in corporate and better prepares its student for private practice but then GT is very international and a better recognised brand outside of the US.
quote

find out if possible then go for both programs, buy a frequent flyer membership and have fun.,,i mean u can't decide between two schools where to go...think hard man

find out if possible then go for both programs, buy a frequent flyer membership and have fun.,,i mean u can't decide between two schools where to go...think hard man
quote

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