I REALLY NEED HELP! PENN


Newbie011

Northwestern LLM / K OR UPenn / Wharton?

Northwestern LLM / K OR UPenn / Wharton?
quote
MAB79

I don't know about the programs. I am pretty sure that both have pros and cons...but the cities: Chicago is much nicer and compared to philly the criminal statistics is almost not mentionable...so, I am pretty sure that for you and your spouse Chicago and NU is the better choice!

I don't know about the programs. I am pretty sure that both have pros and cons...but the cities: Chicago is much nicer and compared to philly the criminal statistics is almost not mentionable...so, I am pretty sure that for you and your spouse Chicago and NU is the better choice!
quote
Newbie011

Thank You MAB79

Thank You – MAB79
quote
MAB79

Not quite true...If you take the usnews business rankings, you'll find out that Wharton is actually not ranked better than Kellog, but equal;-)

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-business-schools/rankings

So, I would not say that UPenn is better in the combination class...but Chicago in my opinion offers more than Philly, except for Liberty Bell and the oldest street of America, there is not so much to do and see...

Not quite true...If you take the usnews business rankings, you'll find out that Wharton is actually not ranked better than Kellog, but equal;-)

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-business-schools/rankings

So, I would not say that UPenn is better in the combination class...but Chicago in my opinion offers more than Philly, except for Liberty Bell and the oldest street of America, there is not so much to do and see...
quote
Triple M

Not quite true...If you take the usnews business rankings, you'll find out that Wharton is actually not ranked better than Kellog, but equal;-)

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-business-schools/rankings

So, I would not say that UPenn is better in the combination class...but Chicago in my opinion offers more than Philly, except for Liberty Bell and the oldest street of America, there is not so much to do and see...


Kellog is a great institution and a very good school. Where you come from however matters in which school you want to attend. Contrary to the US graduate rankings however, Wharton School of Business is shoulders and heads above all Business Schools including Harvard Business School, Chicago Booth, MIT's Sloan or NYU's Stern.
The only Business School globally that really compares to Wharton is the London School of Economics.
If you intend to practice in Europe, Asia or Africa, then having the Wharton Certificate beats Kellog by a very long shot according to the 2010 global rankings by the FT: http://rankings.ft.com/exportranking/global-mba-rankings/pdf
When it comes to employment, and median salary (Wharton's median salary for graduates is $163, 561, Kellog's is $139,310) Wharton is better, Wharton graduates have better career progress than Kellog--according to the FT and the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU).
But, you are in a very GOOD predicament, choosing between the two is a good predicament to be in.
If you have a spouse, Pennsylvania would be a better place to be in my view. Not too far from Washington DC and for a couple, Pennsylvania is much more beautiful than Chicago. As a single person however, Chicago is the place to be compared to Pennsylvania.
That's my two cents.....

<blockquote>Not quite true...If you take the usnews business rankings, you'll find out that Wharton is actually not ranked better than Kellog, but equal;-)

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-business-schools/rankings

So, I would not say that UPenn is better in the combination class...but Chicago in my opinion offers more than Philly, except for Liberty Bell and the oldest street of America, there is not so much to do and see...</blockquote>

Kellog is a great institution and a very good school. Where you come from however matters in which school you want to attend. Contrary to the US graduate rankings however, Wharton School of Business is shoulders and heads above all Business Schools including Harvard Business School, Chicago Booth, MIT's Sloan or NYU's Stern.
The only Business School globally that really compares to Wharton is the London School of Economics.
If you intend to practice in Europe, Asia or Africa, then having the Wharton Certificate beats Kellog by a very long shot according to the 2010 global rankings by the FT: http://rankings.ft.com/exportranking/global-mba-rankings/pdf
When it comes to employment, and median salary (Wharton's median salary for graduates is $163, 561, Kellog's is $139,310) Wharton is better, Wharton graduates have better career progress than Kellog--according to the FT and the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU).
But, you are in a very GOOD predicament, choosing between the two is a good predicament to be in.
If you have a spouse, Pennsylvania would be a better place to be in my view. Not too far from Washington DC and for a couple, Pennsylvania is much more beautiful than Chicago. As a single person however, Chicago is the place to be compared to Pennsylvania.
That's my two cents.....
quote
MAB79

Not quite true...If you take the usnews business rankings, you'll find out that Wharton is actually not ranked better than Kellog, but equal;-)

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-business-schools/rankings

So, I would not say that UPenn is better in the combination class...but Chicago in my opinion offers more than Philly, except for Liberty Bell and the oldest street of America, there is not so much to do and see...


Kellog is a great institution and a very good school. Where you come from however matters in which school you want to attend. Contrary to the US graduate rankings however, Wharton School of Business is shoulders and heads above all Business Schools including Harvard Business School, Chicago Booth, MIT's Sloan or NYU's Stern.
The only Business School globally that really compares to Wharton is the London School of Economics.
If you intend to practice in Europe, Asia or Africa, then having the Wharton Certificate beats Kellog by a very long shot according to the 2010 global rankings by the FT: http://rankings.ft.com/exportranking/global-mba-rankings/pdf
When it comes to employment, and median salary (Wharton's median salary for graduates is $163, 561, Kellog's is $139,310) Wharton is better, Wharton graduates have better career progress than Kellog--according to the FT and the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU).
But, you are in a very GOOD predicament, choosing between the two is a good predicament to be in.
If you have a spouse, Pennsylvania would be a better place to be in my view. Not too far from Washington DC and for a couple, Pennsylvania is much more beautiful than Chicago. As a single person however, Chicago is the place to be compared to Pennsylvania.
That's my two cents.....


While your opinion is well argued and I understand, that Wharton is top, none of these ranking shows the actual worth of the special LLM Program of these schools, which are both very competitive! The median salary is always to be looked at with certain caution...Therefore the place becomes very important...

And here, I really have to say, that Pennsylvania but not Philladelphia is nice. Philly has one of the highest murderer rates in the U.S. and the city is not comparable to the cultural, culinary, architectural and entertainment options Chicago has...I have been to both cities several times....

<blockquote><blockquote>Not quite true...If you take the usnews business rankings, you'll find out that Wharton is actually not ranked better than Kellog, but equal;-)

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-business-schools/rankings

So, I would not say that UPenn is better in the combination class...but Chicago in my opinion offers more than Philly, except for Liberty Bell and the oldest street of America, there is not so much to do and see...</blockquote>

Kellog is a great institution and a very good school. Where you come from however matters in which school you want to attend. Contrary to the US graduate rankings however, Wharton School of Business is shoulders and heads above all Business Schools including Harvard Business School, Chicago Booth, MIT's Sloan or NYU's Stern.
The only Business School globally that really compares to Wharton is the London School of Economics.
If you intend to practice in Europe, Asia or Africa, then having the Wharton Certificate beats Kellog by a very long shot according to the 2010 global rankings by the FT: http://rankings.ft.com/exportranking/global-mba-rankings/pdf
When it comes to employment, and median salary (Wharton's median salary for graduates is $163, 561, Kellog's is $139,310) Wharton is better, Wharton graduates have better career progress than Kellog--according to the FT and the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU).
But, you are in a very GOOD predicament, choosing between the two is a good predicament to be in.
If you have a spouse, Pennsylvania would be a better place to be in my view. Not too far from Washington DC and for a couple, Pennsylvania is much more beautiful than Chicago. As a single person however, Chicago is the place to be compared to Pennsylvania.
That's my two cents.....</blockquote>

While your opinion is well argued and I understand, that Wharton is top, none of these ranking shows the actual worth of the special LLM Program of these schools, which are both very competitive! The median salary is always to be looked at with certain caution...Therefore the place becomes very important...

And here, I really have to say, that Pennsylvania but not Philladelphia is nice. Philly has one of the highest murderer rates in the U.S. and the city is not comparable to the cultural, culinary, architectural and entertainment options Chicago has...I have been to both cities several times....
quote
Newbie011

Thanks for helping me and for the amazing contributions.

Thanks for helping me and for the amazing contributions.

quote
MAB79

Thanks for helping me and for the amazing contributions.

Regarding the LL.M. PENN is above Northwestern in the US News ranking. However, I heard from a lot of people that they are practically the same. I have also talked to several alumni from NW and they all loved the program and the university.

Moreover, credits earned on the LL.M./K can be carried forward to the MBA at NW if one decides go on business school later and they are also added for the NYU BAR exam.

The credits earned at Wharton are not added for NYU Bar Exam and the courses available for the Wharton Program students are basically left over from the Wharton MBA programs. At Wharton, courses are given by a special division of Wharton (post BA), and your classmates will be not MBA students, but foreigners that are not business students (journalists, physicians, etc.).

About classroom size - The LL.M./K seems very interesting (only 20-30 students each year). And (according to NW website) all the students have a minimum working period before the LL.M.


Why do you know, that the UPenn LLM is above the NU LLM? There are no actual rankings for LLM-Programs, are there?

<blockquote>Thanks for helping me and for the amazing contributions.

Regarding the LL.M. – PENN is above Northwestern in the US News ranking. However, I heard from a lot of people that they are practically the same. I have also talked to several alumni from NW and they all loved the program and the university.

Moreover, credits earned on the LL.M./K can be carried forward to the MBA at NW if one decides go on business school later and they are also added for the NYU BAR exam.

The credits earned at Wharton are not added for NYU Bar Exam and the courses available for the Wharton Program students are basically left over from the Wharton MBA programs. At Wharton, courses are given by a special division of Wharton (post BA), and your classmates will be not MBA students, but foreigners that are not business students (journalists, physicians, etc.).

About classroom size - The LL.M./K seems very interesting (only 20-30 students each year). And (according to NW website) all the students have a minimum working period before the LL.M.
</blockquote>

Why do you know, that the UPenn LLM is above the NU LLM? There are no actual rankings for LLM-Programs, are there?
quote
Newbie011

Since I am not from US, I am not sure. But if you make a proxy from de US News, listen to some partners in the magic circle and see that it is an Ivy school. I have doubts.

Since I am not from US, I am not sure. But if you make a proxy from de US News, listen to some partners in the magic circle and see that it is an Ivy school. I have doubts.

quote
MAB79

Since I am not from US, I am not sure. But if you make a proxy from de US News, listen to some partners in the magic circle and see that it is an Ivy school. I have doubts.



I am in Europe and work also in a top law firm...NU has a great reputation as has UPenn...but most of the partners and senior associates in my law firm have been to Harvard and Columbia or to LSE anyway...here are also some that actually say, they decided not to follow the mass and went to Miami or less popular law schools...just because they said that it isn't that important where you have been...so, I guess at least in civil law europe, the important think is that you have earned a LL.M. and not where...That is my impression!

Last but not least: At least in Switzerland, UPenn is not very popular, because of Philly

<blockquote>Since I am not from US, I am not sure. But if you make a proxy from de US News, listen to some partners in the magic circle and see that it is an Ivy school. I have doubts.

</blockquote>

I am in Europe and work also in a top law firm...NU has a great reputation as has UPenn...but most of the partners and senior associates in my law firm have been to Harvard and Columbia or to LSE anyway...here are also some that actually say, they decided not to follow the mass and went to Miami or less popular law schools...just because they said that it isn't that important where you have been...so, I guess at least in civil law europe, the important think is that you have earned a LL.M. and not where...That is my impression!

Last but not least: At least in Switzerland, UPenn is not very popular, because of Philly
quote
spikesf

Since I am not from US, I am not sure. But if you make a proxy from de US News, listen to some partners in the magic circle and see that it is an Ivy school. I have doubts.



I am in Europe and work also in a top law firm...NU has a great reputation as has UPenn...but most of the partners and senior associates in my law firm have been to Harvard and Columbia or to LSE anyway...here are also some that actually say, they decided not to follow the mass and went to Miami or less popular law schools...just because they said that it isn't that important where you have been...so, I guess at least in civil law europe, the important think is that you have earned a LL.M. and not where...That is my impression!

Last but not least: At least in Switzerland, UPenn is not very popular, because of Philly


I am also working at a continental europe based office of a magic circle firm and I confirm the above. Actually the partners don't care too much where you have been, as long as you have an LLM they are fine with it...

<blockquote><blockquote>Since I am not from US, I am not sure. But if you make a proxy from de US News, listen to some partners in the magic circle and see that it is an Ivy school. I have doubts.

</blockquote>

I am in Europe and work also in a top law firm...NU has a great reputation as has UPenn...but most of the partners and senior associates in my law firm have been to Harvard and Columbia or to LSE anyway...here are also some that actually say, they decided not to follow the mass and went to Miami or less popular law schools...just because they said that it isn't that important where you have been...so, I guess at least in civil law europe, the important think is that you have earned a LL.M. and not where...That is my impression!

Last but not least: At least in Switzerland, UPenn is not very popular, because of Philly</blockquote>

I am also working at a continental europe based office of a magic circle firm and I confirm the above. Actually the partners don't care too much where you have been, as long as you have an LLM they are fine with it...
quote
Newbie011

quote
Triple M

Since I am not from US, I am not sure. But if you make a proxy from de US News, listen to some partners in the magic circle and see that it is an Ivy school. I have doubts.



I am in Europe and work also in a top law firm...NU has a great reputation as has UPenn...but most of the partners and senior associates in my law firm have been to Harvard and Columbia or to LSE anyway...here are also some that actually say, they decided not to follow the mass and went to Miami or less popular law schools...just because they said that it isn't that important where you have been...so, I guess at least in civil law europe, the important think is that you have earned a LL.M. and not where...That is my impression!

Last but not least: At least in Switzerland, UPenn is not very popular, because of Philly


I come from the UK, and I have met business men who have never heard of the joint Kellog/LLM program who nonetheless think Wharton-as well as Duke and HBS, are the greatest business schools in the US. I do not like the categorization and rankings of schools. But although there is no rankings for the LLM/Business school programs, I would cast my lot with Penn.
Philly is not Pennsylvania, and I find it ironic and a little bit dishonest that the Swiss actually look down on such a great institution because because I can name four Swiss bankers from the tip of my fingers that attended UPenn.
@Newbie, your heart is clearly in Northwestern and I would advice you to go with that, but as much as we might not like the rankings, and in the case of LLM applicants, we are just deducing the strengths of the joint programs by combining the law school rankings and the business school rankings, people, prospective employees and the public in general look and closely monitor the rankings.
If it is any consolation, the Economist Magazine, which is owned by the same company as the FT, ranks Upenn very differently, although in both, Upenn still ranks higher than Northwestern-- http://www.economist.com/business-education/whichmba/displayStory.cfm?story_id=14632300

<blockquote><blockquote>Since I am not from US, I am not sure. But if you make a proxy from de US News, listen to some partners in the magic circle and see that it is an Ivy school. I have doubts.

</blockquote>

I am in Europe and work also in a top law firm...NU has a great reputation as has UPenn...but most of the partners and senior associates in my law firm have been to Harvard and Columbia or to LSE anyway...here are also some that actually say, they decided not to follow the mass and went to Miami or less popular law schools...just because they said that it isn't that important where you have been...so, I guess at least in civil law europe, the important think is that you have earned a LL.M. and not where...That is my impression!

Last but not least: At least in Switzerland, UPenn is not very popular, because of Philly</blockquote>

I come from the UK, and I have met business men who have never heard of the joint Kellog/LLM program who nonetheless think Wharton-as well as Duke and HBS, are the greatest business schools in the US. I do not like the categorization and rankings of schools. But although there is no rankings for the LLM/Business school programs, I would cast my lot with Penn.
Philly is not Pennsylvania, and I find it ironic and a little bit dishonest that the Swiss actually look down on such a great institution because because I can name four Swiss bankers from the tip of my fingers that attended UPenn.
@Newbie, your heart is clearly in Northwestern and I would advice you to go with that, but as much as we might not like the rankings, and in the case of LLM applicants, we are just deducing the strengths of the joint programs by combining the law school rankings and the business school rankings, people, prospective employees and the public in general look and closely monitor the rankings.
If it is any consolation, the Economist Magazine, which is owned by the same company as the FT, ranks Upenn very differently, although in both, Upenn still ranks higher than Northwestern-- http://www.economist.com/business-education/whichmba/displayStory.cfm?story_id=14632300
quote
Newbie011

Cheers, Triple M.

Cheers, Triple M.
quote
GTT

Why dont u do LLM/Wharton and 1 yr MBA at Kellogg afterwards... ???

Why dont u do LLM/Wharton and 1 yr MBA at Kellogg afterwards... ???
quote
Newbie011

Thank You GTT.

Thank You GTT.

quote
MAB79

Since I am not from US, I am not sure. But if you make a proxy from de US News, listen to some partners in the magic circle and see that it is an Ivy school. I have doubts.



I am in Europe and work also in a top law firm...NU has a great reputation as has UPenn...but most of the partners and senior associates in my law firm have been to Harvard and Columbia or to LSE anyway...here are also some that actually say, they decided not to follow the mass and went to Miami or less popular law schools...just because they said that it isn't that important where you have been...so, I guess at least in civil law europe, the important think is that you have earned a LL.M. and not where...That is my impression!

Last but not least: At least in Switzerland, UPenn is not very popular, because of Philly


I come from the UK, and I have met business men who have never heard of the joint Kellog/LLM program who nonetheless think Wharton-as well as Duke and HBS, are the greatest business schools in the US. I do not like the categorization and rankings of schools. But although there is no rankings for the LLM/Business school programs, I would cast my lot with Penn.
Philly is not Pennsylvania, and I find it ironic and a little bit dishonest that the Swiss actually look down on such a great institution because because I can name four Swiss bankers from the tip of my fingers that attended UPenn.
@Newbie, your heart is clearly in Northwestern and I would advice you to go with that, but as much as we might not like the rankings, and in the case of LLM applicants, we are just deducing the strengths of the joint programs by combining the law school rankings and the business school rankings, people, prospective employees and the public in general look and closely monitor the rankings.
If it is any consolation, the Economist Magazine, which is owned by the same company as the FT, ranks Upenn very differently, although in both, Upenn still ranks higher than Northwestern-- http://www.economist.com/business-education/whichmba/displayStory.cfm?story_id=14632300


Maybe you missunderstood sth: I did not devalue UPenn...after all it is an Ivy League School with a long tradition and Wharton is among the best...I just stated that in civil law it does not matter that much, which school you attended, in particualr not, if both are that prestiguous (and I work in a top tier law firm and have a lot of friends that are inhouse counsels in swiss global companies)...This is not dishonest or ironic at all (at least not more ironic or dishonest than stating that Kellog is not known;-)). I just said, that I'd rather chose Chicago than UPenn, because Philly is not the safest place to live. In particular if your spouse joins you...and this is why UPenn often is not a first choice at least not among the swiss lawyers I know (and I know more than 4;-)). Not because UPenn is not good, but rather because Philly has not a good reputation!
As for the Swiss bankers: At least for the moment, I'd not refer to Swiss bankers;-)

<blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>Since I am not from US, I am not sure. But if you make a proxy from de US News, listen to some partners in the magic circle and see that it is an Ivy school. I have doubts.

</blockquote>

I am in Europe and work also in a top law firm...NU has a great reputation as has UPenn...but most of the partners and senior associates in my law firm have been to Harvard and Columbia or to LSE anyway...here are also some that actually say, they decided not to follow the mass and went to Miami or less popular law schools...just because they said that it isn't that important where you have been...so, I guess at least in civil law europe, the important think is that you have earned a LL.M. and not where...That is my impression!

Last but not least: At least in Switzerland, UPenn is not very popular, because of Philly</blockquote>

I come from the UK, and I have met business men who have never heard of the joint Kellog/LLM program who nonetheless think Wharton-as well as Duke and HBS, are the greatest business schools in the US. I do not like the categorization and rankings of schools. But although there is no rankings for the LLM/Business school programs, I would cast my lot with Penn.
Philly is not Pennsylvania, and I find it ironic and a little bit dishonest that the Swiss actually look down on such a great institution because because I can name four Swiss bankers from the tip of my fingers that attended UPenn.
@Newbie, your heart is clearly in Northwestern and I would advice you to go with that, but as much as we might not like the rankings, and in the case of LLM applicants, we are just deducing the strengths of the joint programs by combining the law school rankings and the business school rankings, people, prospective employees and the public in general look and closely monitor the rankings.
If it is any consolation, the Economist Magazine, which is owned by the same company as the FT, ranks Upenn very differently, although in both, Upenn still ranks higher than Northwestern-- http://www.economist.com/business-education/whichmba/displayStory.cfm?story_id=14632300</blockquote>

Maybe you missunderstood sth: I did not devalue UPenn...after all it is an Ivy League School with a long tradition and Wharton is among the best...I just stated that in civil law it does not matter that much, which school you attended, in particualr not, if both are that prestiguous (and I work in a top tier law firm and have a lot of friends that are inhouse counsels in swiss global companies)...This is not dishonest or ironic at all (at least not more ironic or dishonest than stating that Kellog is not known;-)). I just said, that I'd rather chose Chicago than UPenn, because Philly is not the safest place to live. In particular if your spouse joins you...and this is why UPenn often is not a first choice at least not among the swiss lawyers I know (and I know more than 4;-)). Not because UPenn is not good, but rather because Philly has not a good reputation!
As for the Swiss bankers: At least for the moment, I'd not refer to Swiss bankers;-)
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Newbie011

Tks

Tks
quote
pragh

one thing you should be aware of is that Penn does not allow LLMs to take 1L courses while this may not be the case in NW.

one thing you should be aware of is that Penn does not allow LLMs to take 1L courses while this may not be the case in NW.
quote
amt233

I think it would be hard to make a wrong choice! They are both great schools and great cities.

I am not very familiar with business programs but I believe Wharton has the stronger brand. The actually quality of the programs may contradict this. Penn probably also has the better overall law school, but only slightly. Considering that there is so little difference, I would go with the one you feel is a better fit.

As far as cities are concerned, MAB79 is being a little unfair portraying Philadelphia as a crime-plagued wasteland. The actual crime statistics are pretty equivocal. Neither Philly nor Chicago are exactly exemplary in this regard, but if you stay away from bad neighborhoods you ought to be fine (UPenn is sandwiched a bit awkwardly between downtown and some rough areas, but the campus itself is safe). There's plenty to do in Philly besides the Liberty Bell. Great museums, restaurants, nightlife and so on (you are also a short train ride or drive to NY and DC). To be fair, personally I prefer Chicago as a city, but please don't get the impression that there is nothing worthwhile in Philadelphia. Also, if you are bothered by cold weather, living in Chicago would be very difficult.

Good luck.

I think it would be hard to make a wrong choice! They are both great schools and great cities.

I am not very familiar with business programs but I believe Wharton has the stronger brand. The actually quality of the programs may contradict this. Penn probably also has the better overall law school, but only slightly. Considering that there is so little difference, I would go with the one you feel is a better fit.

As far as cities are concerned, MAB79 is being a little unfair portraying Philadelphia as a crime-plagued wasteland. The actual crime statistics are pretty equivocal. Neither Philly nor Chicago are exactly exemplary in this regard, but if you stay away from bad neighborhoods you ought to be fine (UPenn is sandwiched a bit awkwardly between downtown and some rough areas, but the campus itself is safe). There's plenty to do in Philly besides the Liberty Bell. Great museums, restaurants, nightlife and so on (you are also a short train ride or drive to NY and DC). To be fair, personally I prefer Chicago as a city, but please don't get the impression that there is nothing worthwhile in Philadelphia. Also, if you are bothered by cold weather, living in Chicago would be very difficult.

Good luck.
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