HLS LLMs and JOBS


gar33

Lawpartner, what would you advise people who were told to consider working even for one or two years in the United States to gain experience in specialized commercial fields?

US experience is a definite plus. US LLM and some internship experience in US will open up a lot of doors for you in various places. If you can manage a US job with it, nothing like that but even if you cannot, the firm you interned with might have offices in places like Brussels, London, Singapore etc. who would be willing to pay top money to get you on board. I would definitely advise working in US for a year or two. So please dont confuse the issue I will clarify again --- Doing an LLM with the sole intention of getting a US job can lead to disappointments. Doing an LLM, by itself, is a great thing, if its not going to put you in a deep financial hole. If you can manage someone else to pay for it, nothing like it. Go for it. And then get as much experience you can get. These two things will open up a lot of doors for you, definitely on the other side of the Atlantic, if not on this side.. and if you do manage one on this side of the Atlantic, nothing like it


Dear lawpartner:

How can you claim that "doing an LLM, by itself, is a great thing" after criticizing HLS's admission standards so much? As far as I can remember you qualified Harvard's LL.M. selection as "very poor". You had to believe in at least one of these two things: 1) European education "sucks" (being a "summa cum laude", etc. in Europe means nothing); or 2) Young europeans should not be admitted because of their youth. Your latest posts are ostensively inconsistent with your initial posts. Don't pretend that you're the friendly fellow who is just trying to help ...have you forgotten your insults?!

You seem to believe that all LL.M. students are desperate to get a job in a big firm settled in NY or something. Well, I have fresh news for you (just for you, everybody else already nows this!!): I don't give a damn about your firm or any other else in the US, my plans are purely academic and I have excellent job offers both in my home country and other european countries (including the UK). Working in a big law firm in the US is not my dream; actually it is a sort of nightmare!! I said in my application to Harvard that I plan to engage in teaching and research and guess what: I am in!

Kind regards!

<blockquote><blockquote>Lawpartner, what would you advise people who were told to consider working even for one or two years in the United States to gain experience in specialized commercial fields? </blockquote>
US experience is a definite plus. US LLM and some internship experience in US will open up a lot of doors for you in various places. If you can manage a US job with it, nothing like that but even if you cannot, the firm you interned with might have offices in places like Brussels, London, Singapore etc. who would be willing to pay top money to get you on board. I would definitely advise working in US for a year or two. So please don’t confuse the issue – I will clarify again --- Doing an LLM with the sole intention of getting a US job can lead to disappointments. Doing an LLM, by itself, is a great thing, if its not going to put you in a deep financial hole. If you can manage someone else to pay for it, nothing like it. Go for it. And then get as much experience you can get. These two things will open up a lot of doors for you, definitely on the other side of the Atlantic, if not on this side.. and if you do manage one on this side of the Atlantic, nothing like it… </blockquote>

Dear lawpartner:

How can you claim that "doing an LLM, by itself, is a great thing" after criticizing HLS's admission standards so much? As far as I can remember you qualified Harvard's LL.M. selection as "very poor". You had to believe in at least one of these two things: 1) European education "sucks" (being a "summa cum laude", etc. in Europe means nothing); or 2) Young europeans should not be admitted because of their youth. Your latest posts are ostensively inconsistent with your initial posts. Don't pretend that you're the friendly fellow who is just trying to help ...have you forgotten your insults?!

You seem to believe that all LL.M. students are desperate to get a job in a big firm settled in NY or something. Well, I have fresh news for you (just for you, everybody else already nows this!!): I don't give a damn about your firm or any other else in the US, my plans are purely academic and I have excellent job offers both in my home country and other european countries (including the UK). Working in a big law firm in the US is not my dream; actually it is a sort of nightmare!! I said in my application to Harvard that I plan to engage in teaching and research and guess what: I am in!

Kind regards!

quote
gar33

Sorry Josepidal,
My previous answer was jumbled up by the text editor. So before some paralegal starts correcting my spellings and grammar, here is a query by query answer...
Well, lawpartner sure opened a can of worms!

I did not mean to .. lol. All I wanted to do was to post a warning sign.. and I am glad I did because I have received 6 PMs so far asking me about is it really worth doing an LLM? Some of them were thinking of taking up heavy debt burden to pay for it
I will quickly repeat .
1) If doing an LLM is your goal, go for it. There are people who have dome LLMs and then have returned to their countries to take up prestigious assignments.
2) If getting a US job is your goal, JD is a better alternative than LLM.
3) If your goal is combination of the above two i.e. doing an LLM and getting a US job, do a lot of research before you take the plunge. No point in getting disappointed after spending $60-80K.


I noticed that you wake up very early... very early indeed!! Hmm...

<blockquote>Sorry Josepidal,
My previous answer was jumbled up by the text editor. So before some paralegal starts correcting my spellings and grammar, here is a query by query answer...
<blockquote>Well, lawpartner sure opened a can of worms!
</blockquote>
I did not mean to .. lol. All I wanted to do was to post a warning sign.. and I am glad I did because I have received 6 PMs so far asking me about is it really worth doing an LLM? Some of them were thinking of taking up heavy debt burden to pay for it…
I will quickly repeat ….
1) If doing an LLM is your goal, go for it. There are people who have dome LLMs and then have returned to their countries to take up prestigious assignments.
2) If getting a US job is your goal, JD is a better alternative than LLM.
3) If your goal is combination of the above two i.e. doing an LLM and getting a US job, do a lot of research before you take the plunge. No point in getting disappointed after spending $60-80K.
</blockquote>

I noticed that you wake up very early... very early indeed!! Hmm...
quote
Cindy

I thought after the post of IrishGuy23 all acrimony would stop. Please Gar33, it doesn't help!

I thought after the post of IrishGuy23 all acrimony would stop. Please Gar33, it doesn't help!
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gar33

I thought after the post of IrishGuy23 all acrimony would stop. Please Gar33, it doesn't help!


It happens that "lawpartner" insulted me without motive Cindy...

<blockquote>I thought after the post of IrishGuy23 all acrimony would stop. Please Gar33, it doesn't help!</blockquote>

It happens that "lawpartner" insulted me without motive Cindy...
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josepidal

Gar33, in case you were wondering about me, I live in Asia and it's midnight here. In any case, I agree with Cindy; being insulted by someone you've never even met on an informal Internet forum is really low on one's scale of priorities. If and when we meet up, I'll describe how some people were saying my country was headed into a civil war some time ago, and how the incumbent president is currently trying to declare martial law without calling it martial law. There are, unfortunately, some practical aspects to practicing law in my country, such as interpreting the Constitution when you control the military leadership, and when you don't. Cheers! ;)

Gar33, in case you were wondering about me, I live in Asia and it's midnight here. In any case, I agree with Cindy; being insulted by someone you've never even met on an informal Internet forum is really low on one's scale of priorities. If and when we meet up, I'll describe how some people were saying my country was headed into a civil war some time ago, and how the incumbent president is currently trying to declare martial law without calling it martial law. There are, unfortunately, some practical aspects to practicing law in my country, such as interpreting the Constitution when you control the military leadership, and when you don't. Cheers! ;)
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lawpartner

Haha! Thanks for the well-formatted and prompt response!

Would you have specific advice regarding getting a short-term US job for experience, considering you warn LLMs against disappointment? Also, how should you pace things for the New York Bar if you want to take it in, say, July 2007?

I do know my firm is not hiring LLMs. That doesnt mean there aren't any other firms out there hiring LLMs. If I come across any, I would post it here.
About NY bar, I am not the best person to answer this. I passed it many many years ago and that too I did it on the second attempt. But I am sure there are people on this site who have recently passed the bar and can answer that question better. Good luck!!

<blockquote>Haha! Thanks for the well-formatted and prompt response!

Would you have specific advice regarding getting a short-term US job for experience, considering you warn LLMs against disappointment? Also, how should you pace things for the New York Bar if you want to take it in, say, July 2007?</blockquote>
I do know my firm is not hiring LLMs. That doesnt mean there aren't any other firms out there hiring LLMs. If I come across any, I would post it here.
About NY bar, I am not the best person to answer this. I passed it many many years ago and that too I did it on the second attempt. But I am sure there are people on this site who have recently passed the bar and can answer that question better. Good luck!!
quote
lawpartner

However, a while ago my collegue at Weil was looking for LLMs. You could check with Weil if the opening is still there...

However, a while ago my collegue at Weil was looking for LLMs. You could check with Weil if the opening is still there...
quote
lawpartner

As far as I recollect, it was for internship...

As far as I recollect, it was for internship...
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lawpartner

There are a lot of PMs and some messages about my interests on this site ..... so here it is... I taught a course at NYU 2 years ago and enjoyed the experience immensely. I have been thinking about doing it fulltimea lot less pay but a lot more satisfaction. I have taken a week off and am in the process of giving it a serious thought talking to my acad colleagues, doing research, browsing the net for any relevant info a colleague of mine from NYU suggested a few sitesthis being one of themchecked it out and found it interesting.. so I will be here on this site for a few more days before I go back to the grind

There are a lot of PMs and some messages about my interests on this site ..... so here it is... I taught a course at NYU 2 years ago and enjoyed the experience immensely. I have been thinking about doing it fulltime…a lot less pay but a lot more satisfaction. I have taken a week off and am in the process of giving it a serious thought… talking to my acad colleagues, doing research, browsing the net for any relevant info… a colleague of mine from NYU suggested a few sites…this being one of them…checked it out and found it interesting.. so I will be here on this site for a few more days before I go back to the grind…
quote
coco

lawpartner, did you get my PM?

lawpartner, did you get my PM?
quote
lawpartner

Coco,
I did. And I replied to u. Did you get mine?

Coco,
I did. And I replied to u. Did you get mine?
quote
irishguy23

Ok, I tried to be nice. I tried to be reasonable. I even went through the posts and tried to remedy the misunderstandings that seemed to cause these unbelievably bitchy, childish, immature and idiotic rows. But that obviously isn't enough for some of the more annoying individuals on this forum. So when in Rome .....

First of all, gar33, please stop posting infantile responses. It's incredibly irritating to have to read through the rubbish and arrogant self promotion. I do not come here to read cat fights. OK!
Secondly, I would also like people to stop questioning and making fun of other peoples claims and credentials. You (gar33), dkvajil (spelt wrong) and shapiro (who is the resident grammar and spelling expert who can't spell) have been on a tirade about lawpartner not actually being a partner for a while now. If I chose to attack everyones claims on this board I could do so very easily, but I dont because I like to believe that people are honest and I'm not a bitter little pill.

For instance, gar33's claims of a summa cum laude from a European University. Unless you did law at the University of Zurich, I don't think there are actually any other Uni's that award this. If you are in UK, then the term is 1st Class Honours dear. And if you do have a summa cum laude from the University of Zurich, BIG DEAL!!!! This is the equivalent of a 1st Class Honours, which, as I am sure you are aware, are not actually that uncommon. 85% of Oxford and Cambridge graduates get one, 60% graduates from Trinity College Dublin and 30% of graduates from University College Dublin. You are on a forum talking to people who have been admitted to the top law schools in the US. Do you really think you are the only one here with that kind of qualification? Awwwwwwww bless!

Lots of people could go on about their own qualifications but they wont, and I certainly will never post about them here for a number of reasons. 1)There is no point. People on here dont need to hear about what I have done in the past; 2) It is an exceptionally arrogant and immature thing to do, and if you wouldn't do it in polite conversation with people you don't know, then you don't post it on here; 3) I am not foolish enough to believe that there is no-one better out there. FACT, no matter how brilliant you are, there is ALWAYS somewhere that little bit smarter or younger or more qualified. To think otherwise is not only naieve, but very very foolish.

I have a feeling I have just declared war, but to be honest I am so sick of the whining and idiotic postings that it might make life just that little bit more interesting. I actually can't wait to see the backlash. Let the games begin!

Ok, I tried to be nice. I tried to be reasonable. I even went through the posts and tried to remedy the misunderstandings that seemed to cause these unbelievably bitchy, childish, immature and idiotic rows. But that obviously isn't enough for some of the more annoying individuals on this forum. So when in Rome .....

First of all, gar33, please stop posting infantile responses. It's incredibly irritating to have to read through the rubbish and arrogant self promotion. I do not come here to read cat fights. OK!
Secondly, I would also like people to stop questioning and making fun of other peoples claims and credentials. You (gar33), dkvajil (spelt wrong) and shapiro (who is the resident grammar and spelling expert who can't spell) have been on a tirade about lawpartner not actually being a partner for a while now. If I chose to attack everyones claims on this board I could do so very easily, but I dont because I like to believe that people are honest and I'm not a bitter little pill.

For instance, gar33's claims of a summa cum laude from a European University. Unless you did law at the University of Zurich, I don't think there are actually any other Uni's that award this. If you are in UK, then the term is 1st Class Honours dear. And if you do have a summa cum laude from the University of Zurich, BIG DEAL!!!! This is the equivalent of a 1st Class Honours, which, as I am sure you are aware, are not actually that uncommon. 85% of Oxford and Cambridge graduates get one, 60% graduates from Trinity College Dublin and 30% of graduates from University College Dublin. You are on a forum talking to people who have been admitted to the top law schools in the US. Do you really think you are the only one here with that kind of qualification? Awwwwwwww bless!

Lots of people could go on about their own qualifications but they wont, and I certainly will never post about them here for a number of reasons. 1)There is no point. People on here dont need to hear about what I have done in the past; 2) It is an exceptionally arrogant and immature thing to do, and if you wouldn't do it in polite conversation with people you don't know, then you don't post it on here; 3) I am not foolish enough to believe that there is no-one better out there. FACT, no matter how brilliant you are, there is ALWAYS somewhere that little bit smarter or younger or more qualified. To think otherwise is not only naieve, but very very foolish.

I have a feeling I have just declared war, but to be honest I am so sick of the whining and idiotic postings that it might make life just that little bit more interesting. I actually can't wait to see the backlash. Let the games begin!
quote
lawpartner

My God, Irishguy! Let me tell you something. You will make a damn good lawyer. Law in general and US law in particular, is an adversarial system (regardless of litigation practice or transactional practice). And man, can you fight?
There are people who can fight a good fight. And its great to watch them in action. They raise valid points, they present facts and they do not get into nitpicking, bragging, belittling etc. They also do not dignify petty personal criticism by responding to it. And I think I just witnessed one such episode.
I think Irishguy and Cindy, both of you are right. Our precious time can be better utilized. We should not have to read about someones personal achievements, cat fights, boastings, allegations etc. and can just ignore such posts.

My God, Irishguy! Let me tell you something. You will make a damn good lawyer. Law in general and US law in particular, is an adversarial system (regardless of litigation practice or transactional practice). And man, can you fight?
There are people who can fight a good fight. And its great to watch them in action. They raise valid points, they present facts and they do not get into nitpicking, bragging, belittling etc. They also do not dignify petty personal criticism by responding to it. And I think I just witnessed one such episode.
I think Irishguy and Cindy, both of you are right. Our precious time can be better utilized. We should not have to read about someone’s personal achievements, cat fights, boastings, allegations etc. and can just ignore such posts.
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lawpartner

It is a good site and a good earth. Let's try to keep it that way...cheers!

It is a good site and a good earth. Let's try to keep it that way...cheers!
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josepidal

Irishguy: Let me be the first to admit I have absolutely no credentials worth mentioning, but I attached my family tree to my application and indicated that I had an ancestor on the Mayflower and am distantly related to royalty.

Lawpartner: Thanks for the candid response. However, might I ask, what is the difference between a "job" and an internship from an LLM's perspective? Why might a firm seek LLMs specifically for an internship?

Irishguy: Let me be the first to admit I have absolutely no credentials worth mentioning, but I attached my family tree to my application and indicated that I had an ancestor on the Mayflower and am distantly related to royalty.

Lawpartner: Thanks for the candid response. However, might I ask, what is the difference between a "job" and an internship from an LLM's perspective? Why might a firm seek LLMs specifically for an internship?
quote
josepidal

Incidentally, lawpartner, I envy how people over there can easily consider the academe a viable option. We have many excellent professors over here, but the salary is a pittance relative to expectations. I am grateful that some of the most successful practictioners decide to go into teaching after reaching their peaks, more as a hobby than anything else. I had the privilege of speaking to my country's recently retired Ombudsman the other night, and he had to quit after the stress of an endless stream of graft prosecutions took their toll on his health. He looked far more relaxed and I encouraged him to finally teach Criminal Law-related classes at the University of the Philippines. He, in turn, wished me well because he said taking an LLM was the one thing he was never able to do in his incredibly successful career as a litigator.

Incidentally, lawpartner, I envy how people over there can easily consider the academe a viable option. We have many excellent professors over here, but the salary is a pittance relative to expectations. I am grateful that some of the most successful practictioners decide to go into teaching after reaching their peaks, more as a hobby than anything else. I had the privilege of speaking to my country's recently retired Ombudsman the other night, and he had to quit after the stress of an endless stream of graft prosecutions took their toll on his health. He looked far more relaxed and I encouraged him to finally teach Criminal Law-related classes at the University of the Philippines. He, in turn, wished me well because he said taking an LLM was the one thing he was never able to do in his incredibly successful career as a litigator.
quote
Kazaf

There is obviously a lot of myth and confusion running around these boards about post-LLM careers in the US, so I thought it might be helpful for me to offer my own thoughts.

In general, this has been my experience: It is true that JD students have it much, much easier than LLM students in finding a law firm job in the US. However, some US law firms in the US do recruit LLM students, and if so, these are the general factors which inform them (I specifically asked all the law firms that made me offers, and their answers confirm my friends' job hunt experiences):

1. Location of your first law school - in general, people with LLBs from the English-speaking common law countries are most highly regarded (e.g. UK, Canada, Australia, then followed by India and Singapore).

2. Your English 'SPEAKING' abilities - law firms are less impressed by your TOEFL score, than your speaking abilities. American law firm partners tend to be very turned turned off by strong foreign accents.

3. Your LLM fall semester grades - since many firms recruit in the Spring, they will want to see your LLM fall semester grades. If your grades are excellent (especially at law schools like Harvard where the LLMs are placed on the same curve as the JDs), you will be highly regarded.

4. Your LLM school - law firms are DEFINITELY picky with this one. They essentially look a lot more at places like Harvard, Columbia and NYU. I would say it is COMPLETELY UNTRUE that you stand a better chance at Columbia than Harvard. The reason why placement is better at Columbia is probably more Columbia LLM students apply for jobs in the US, whereas the Harvard LLM class has a lot of people who are keen to return to their high profile public / academic positions in their own countries.

5. Relevant foreign language skills - certain languages are very high in demand (e.g. Mandarin, Japanese, Korean and Spanish). But these are more relevant if the firm is hoping to send you to a foreign office.

6. Your previous work experience - if you have relevant work experience, this is helpful, but this is certainly not the most important factor, compared to the above (because you will more than likely be a first-year or at most second-year associate in NY anyway).

7. Your cultural background - US law firm interviews are very different from their UK counterparts. Here, the partners are very keen to know about you to see whether you can comfortably fit into THEIR culture. E.g. during my interviews, I always somehow ended up talking about galleries, museums and theaters in London and Europe, my interest in Victorian literature and classical music.

Overall, I will say that if you are thinking of investing $60K (with loans) for your LLM with the sole aim of getting a job here, then think hard if you do not have most of the above.

There is obviously a lot of myth and confusion running around these boards about post-LLM careers in the US, so I thought it might be helpful for me to offer my own thoughts.

In general, this has been my experience: It is true that JD students have it much, much easier than LLM students in finding a law firm job in the US. However, some US law firms in the US do recruit LLM students, and if so, these are the general factors which inform them (I specifically asked all the law firms that made me offers, and their answers confirm my friends' job hunt experiences):

1. Location of your first law school - in general, people with LLBs from the English-speaking common law countries are most highly regarded (e.g. UK, Canada, Australia, then followed by India and Singapore).

2. Your English 'SPEAKING' abilities - law firms are less impressed by your TOEFL score, than your speaking abilities. American law firm partners tend to be very turned turned off by strong foreign accents.

3. Your LLM fall semester grades - since many firms recruit in the Spring, they will want to see your LLM fall semester grades. If your grades are excellent (especially at law schools like Harvard where the LLMs are placed on the same curve as the JDs), you will be highly regarded.

4. Your LLM school - law firms are DEFINITELY picky with this one. They essentially look a lot more at places like Harvard, Columbia and NYU. I would say it is COMPLETELY UNTRUE that you stand a better chance at Columbia than Harvard. The reason why placement is better at Columbia is probably more Columbia LLM students apply for jobs in the US, whereas the Harvard LLM class has a lot of people who are keen to return to their high profile public / academic positions in their own countries.

5. Relevant foreign language skills - certain languages are very high in demand (e.g. Mandarin, Japanese, Korean and Spanish). But these are more relevant if the firm is hoping to send you to a foreign office.

6. Your previous work experience - if you have relevant work experience, this is helpful, but this is certainly not the most important factor, compared to the above (because you will more than likely be a first-year or at most second-year associate in NY anyway).

7. Your cultural background - US law firm interviews are very different from their UK counterparts. Here, the partners are very keen to know about you to see whether you can comfortably fit into THEIR culture. E.g. during my interviews, I always somehow ended up talking about galleries, museums and theaters in London and Europe, my interest in Victorian literature and classical music.

Overall, I will say that if you are thinking of investing $60K (with loans) for your LLM with the sole aim of getting a job here, then think hard if you do not have most of the above.
quote
lawpartner

Thanks Kazaf. You reply would be very helpful to some people on this site. People like Intlaw. And from what I gather, you are no ordinary 23 year old. So much achieved at such a young age and no hint of any ego. Keep it up. All the very best to you. .

Thanks Kazaf. You reply would be very helpful to some people on this site. People like Intlaw. And from what I gather, you are no ordinary 23 year old. So much achieved at such a young age and no hint of any ego. Keep it up. All the very best to you. .
quote
lawpartner

Josepidal,
The difference between an intern and an associate is more or less like the difference between a date and a spouse :-). At my previous firm, associates turnover was so high that we used to joke that the only difference between and intern and an associate is that the intern knows he is temporary :-).

Josepidal,
The difference between an intern and an associate is more or less like the difference between a date and a spouse :-). At my previous firm, associates turnover was so high that we used to joke that the only difference between and intern and an associate is that the intern knows he is temporary :-).
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katxyz

Haha! Thanks for the well-formatted and prompt response!

Would you have specific advice regarding getting a short-term US job for experience, considering you warn LLMs against disappointment? Also, how should you pace things for the New York Bar if you want to take it in, say, July 2007?

I do know my firm is not hiring LLMs. That doesnt mean there aren't any other firms out there hiring LLMs. If I come across any, I would post it here.
About NY bar, I am not the best person to answer this. I passed it many many years ago and that too I did it on the second attempt. But I am sure there are people on this site who have recently passed the bar and can answer that question better. Good luck!!


Just a quick question for clarification (just out of interest - I'm not planning to apply for any jobs in NY, I already have one in the UK), what do you mean, your firm is not hiring LLMs?
They have made an active decision - "we do not want anyone with an LLM"? Why? Surely if someone has an advanced degree on top of their law degree, that would only work in their favour?

<blockquote><blockquote>Haha! Thanks for the well-formatted and prompt response!

Would you have specific advice regarding getting a short-term US job for experience, considering you warn LLMs against disappointment? Also, how should you pace things for the New York Bar if you want to take it in, say, July 2007?</blockquote>
I do know my firm is not hiring LLMs. That doesnt mean there aren't any other firms out there hiring LLMs. If I come across any, I would post it here.
About NY bar, I am not the best person to answer this. I passed it many many years ago and that too I did it on the second attempt. But I am sure there are people on this site who have recently passed the bar and can answer that question better. Good luck!! </blockquote>

Just a quick question for clarification (just out of interest - I'm not planning to apply for any jobs in NY, I already have one in the UK), what do you mean, your firm is not hiring LLMs?
They have made an active decision - "we do not want anyone with an LLM"? Why? Surely if someone has an advanced degree on top of their law degree, that would only work in their favour?
quote

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