Harvard - Quota per country


Sting83
Hi,

Several people told me that Harvard is working on a quota basis, meaning that there are is a maximum (not minimum) of applicants per country.

How will they evaluate which country you come from?
Nationality? Where you studied? Where you intend to work?

Thanks!
Hi,

Several people told me that Harvard is working on a quota basis, meaning that there are is a maximum (not minimum) of applicants per country.

How will they evaluate which country you come from?
Nationality? Where you studied? Where you intend to work?

Thanks!
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lazyf
Hi Sting83,

Don't think you should worry too much about it - though your worry, given how close it is to many of the confirmation email dates, is wholly understandable =)

My understanding is that they generally do have a generic working quota, but this works purely as a guide - i.e. if you're good enough, they'll find a space for you somehow ;)

In relation to your query on what the criteria for the guide is - I'm not too sure myself - but I suspect ultimately, they're looking for people who are a good fit - so it may not be fair to suggest that they have any sort of determinative guide.

Hope that helps in some small way! :)
Hi Sting83,

Don't think you should worry too much about it - though your worry, given how close it is to many of the confirmation email dates, is wholly understandable =)

My understanding is that they generally do have a generic working quota, but this works purely as a guide - i.e. if you're good enough, they'll find a space for you somehow ;)

In relation to your query on what the criteria for the guide is - I'm not too sure myself - but I suspect ultimately, they're looking for people who are a good fit - so it may not be fair to suggest that they have any sort of determinative guide.

Hope that helps in some small way! :)
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good fit - so does it mean that its not all about grades? say you have above average grades but superb other credentials... im quite anxious as the deadline is near. (am from canada, by the way)
good fit - so does it mean that its not all about grades? say you have above average grades but superb other credentials... im quite anxious as the deadline is near. (am from canada, by the way)
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lazyf
Yup - I personally know of people who got first class who didn't get in because they had nothing else but grades (no disrespect to them, of course, since it's not all that easy to get a first, even if you did nothing else!), and 2nd Uppers who managed to squeeze their way in on the back of having really outstanding ECA records and community involvement. So, all is not lost if you're not particularly outstanding academic-wise (though, as you rightly pointed out, academic credentials must, of course, pass some muster - though this is prehaps a little careless generalisation, if you got third class, for example, you're probably not going to get in...)

That said, I have to say I suspect there's no real science to it since what is a real fit, especially in the borderline cases, would probably be more of hunches and intuition, though I'll keep my fingers crossed for you guys! :)
Yup - I personally know of people who got first class who didn't get in because they had nothing else but grades (no disrespect to them, of course, since it's not all that easy to get a first, even if you did nothing else!), and 2nd Uppers who managed to squeeze their way in on the back of having really outstanding ECA records and community involvement. So, all is not lost if you're not particularly outstanding academic-wise (though, as you rightly pointed out, academic credentials must, of course, pass some muster - though this is prehaps a little careless generalisation, if you got third class, for example, you're probably not going to get in...)

That said, I have to say I suspect there's no real science to it since what is a real fit, especially in the borderline cases, would probably be more of hunches and intuition, though I'll keep my fingers crossed for you guys! :)
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Busingye
Yup - I personally know of people who got first class who didn't get in because they had nothing else but grades (no disrespect to them, of course, since it's not all that easy to get a first, even if you did nothing else!), and 2nd Uppers who managed to squeeze their way in on the back of having really outstanding ECA records and community involvement. So, all is not lost if you're not particularly outstanding academic-wise (though, as you rightly pointed out, academic credentials must, of course, pass some muster - though this is prehaps a little careless generalisation, if you got third class, for example, you're probably not going to get in...)

That said, I have to say I suspect there's no real science to it since what is a real fit, especially in the borderline cases, would probably be more of hunches and intuition, though I'll keep my fingers crossed for you guys! :)


I agree. When you have to choose 150 people out of 1500 applicants, some bit of arbitrariness necessarily seeps into the admission process! the famed "quota" system, good grades, superb recommendations, excellent personal statements, etc all count but there is a lot of luck in the whole thing!! at the end of the day its really touch and go! its like reading yo fate in your porridge:) the next two weeks or so will be anxious ones for us all, so lets do the best thing we can do, keep guessing together, trying to anticipate the results (while knowing we cannot) lol, and generally do wat lawyers are famed for-being stressed!! =))
<blockquote>Yup - I personally know of people who got first class who didn't get in because they had nothing else but grades (no disrespect to them, of course, since it's not all that easy to get a first, even if you did nothing else!), and 2nd Uppers who managed to squeeze their way in on the back of having really outstanding ECA records and community involvement. So, all is not lost if you're not particularly outstanding academic-wise (though, as you rightly pointed out, academic credentials must, of course, pass some muster - though this is prehaps a little careless generalisation, if you got third class, for example, you're probably not going to get in...)

That said, I have to say I suspect there's no real science to it since what is a real fit, especially in the borderline cases, would probably be more of hunches and intuition, though I'll keep my fingers crossed for you guys! :)</blockquote>

I agree. When you have to choose 150 people out of 1500 applicants, some bit of arbitrariness necessarily seeps into the admission process! the famed "quota" system, good grades, superb recommendations, excellent personal statements, etc all count but there is a lot of luck in the whole thing!! at the end of the day its really touch and go! its like reading yo fate in your porridge:) the next two weeks or so will be anxious ones for us all, so lets do the best thing we can do, keep guessing together, trying to anticipate the results (while knowing we cannot) lol, and generally do wat lawyers are famed for-being stressed!! =))
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It's not 150 - they probably send about 200-250 offers, as even a prestigious school like HLS will have a large number of rejected offers - by those who chose YLS or SLS over HLS, got substantial scholarships at lower ranked schools (e.g. NYU or Michigan) or failed to secure financial aid and could not afford to go.
This is why the whole quota system is very approximate; if HLS decides to offer places to, say, 15 German nationals, HLS has no way to know in advance whether all the 15, or 10, or 5, will eventually accept (the example is random; I've no idea how many Germans get accepted).
It's not 150 - they probably send about 200-250 offers, as even a prestigious school like HLS will have a large number of rejected offers - by those who chose YLS or SLS over HLS, got substantial scholarships at lower ranked schools (e.g. NYU or Michigan) or failed to secure financial aid and could not afford to go.
This is why the whole quota system is very approximate; if HLS decides to offer places to, say, 15 German nationals, HLS has no way to know in advance whether all the 15, or 10, or 5, will eventually accept (the example is random; I've no idea how many Germans get accepted).
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Busingye
It's not 150 - they probably send about 200-250 offers, as even a prestigious school like HLS will have a large number of rejected offers - by those who chose YLS or SLS over HLS, got substantial scholarships at lower ranked schools (e.g. NYU or Michigan) or failed to secure financial aid and could not afford to go.
This is why the whole quota system is very approximate; if HLS decides to offer places to, say, 15 German nationals, HLS has no way to know in advance whether all the 15, or 10, or 5, will eventually accept (the example is random; I've no idea how many Germans get accepted).


Hmm...interesting! I was under the impression that they would send out offers that corresponded in number to the places up for grabs, on the understanding that rejected offers would be extended to those on a "waiting list". The (hypothetical) danger of sending out 250 offers for what are in fact 150(160 according to Josepidal?) places is of course the possibility that all those offered places might accept them! I am pretty ssure that the actual LLM slots are about 150, and that in fact for our purposes this number must be further lessened if we take into account those whose places are already "assured" i.e those who deferred theire admissions from l;ast year, (and I know at least two). I know the overall picture i paint is not a rosy one, and I would prefer your scenario anyday, but perhaps we are better off facing the grimmer reality of things;)

Josepidal or anyone else, mind shedding more light on this stuff??
<blockquote>It's not 150 - they probably send about 200-250 offers, as even a prestigious school like HLS will have a large number of rejected offers - by those who chose YLS or SLS over HLS, got substantial scholarships at lower ranked schools (e.g. NYU or Michigan) or failed to secure financial aid and could not afford to go.
This is why the whole quota system is very approximate; if HLS decides to offer places to, say, 15 German nationals, HLS has no way to know in advance whether all the 15, or 10, or 5, will eventually accept (the example is random; I've no idea how many Germans get accepted).</blockquote>

Hmm...interesting! I was under the impression that they would send out offers that corresponded in number to the places up for grabs, on the understanding that rejected offers would be extended to those on a "waiting list". The (hypothetical) danger of sending out 250 offers for what are in fact 150(160 according to Josepidal?) places is of course the possibility that all those offered places might accept them! I am pretty ssure that the actual LLM slots are about 150, and that in fact for our purposes this number must be further lessened if we take into account those whose places are already "assured" i.e those who deferred theire admissions from l;ast year, (and I know at least two). I know the overall picture i paint is not a rosy one, and I would prefer your scenario anyday, but perhaps we are better off facing the grimmer reality of things;)

Josepidal or anyone else, mind shedding more light on this stuff??
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I have no first-hand information that HLS does this for the LLM, but they do it for JD, and I know other schools (inc. very prestigious ones) do it for their masters programmes.

Of course, they are taking a risk, but there is no way all the 100% are going to accept their offers (mainly for financial reasons + the 20 or so people who will go to YLS); the ratios of acceptance are proven with time, and they might have fluctuations of +/- 20 students every year.

Of course, some of this may be compensated by wait-listing people (and HLS does operate wait-lists), but this is not the best policy for the school, as potentially strong but waitlisted candidates will probably in the meanwhile commit to some other worthy but less hyped up school; therefore, since there are more offers than actual places, chances of being accepted off the wait-list are pretty slim.

I wonder if josepidal or others know anybody who has been accepted from the wait-list?
I have no first-hand information that HLS does this for the LLM, but they do it for JD, and I know other schools (inc. very prestigious ones) do it for their masters programmes.

Of course, they are taking a risk, but there is no way all the 100% are going to accept their offers (mainly for financial reasons + the 20 or so people who will go to YLS); the ratios of acceptance are proven with time, and they might have fluctuations of +/- 20 students every year.

Of course, some of this may be compensated by wait-listing people (and HLS does operate wait-lists), but this is not the best policy for the school, as potentially strong but waitlisted candidates will probably in the meanwhile commit to some other worthy but less hyped up school; therefore, since there are more offers than actual places, chances of being accepted off the wait-list are pretty slim.

I wonder if josepidal or others know anybody who has been accepted from the wait-list?
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Busingye
i do hope u are right n am wrong;)!
i do hope u are right n am wrong;)!

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Well, if you look through last year's posts, you'll see there are very few people on the wait-list, whereas quite a few say they've declined HLS because they got the Hauser or are heading off to YLS. Where did their spots go then???
Well, if you look through last year's posts, you'll see there are very few people on the wait-list, whereas quite a few say they've declined HLS because they got the Hauser or are heading off to YLS. Where did their spots go then???
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Busingye
u make a good point. but then again, not all those on the wait-list were posting, and it is at least conceivable(even if improbable) that the rejected offers were indeed passed on to some on the non-posting-wait-listers.

then again, considering that there were deferrals even the previous year, the whole thing gets blurred.i dont know whether those guys have to confirm their attendance by an earlier deadline(earlier than the admissions process), so as determine the slots left for passing around.

either way,even conceding some kind of modest inflation to allow for rejected offers, 200, or any number beyond 170 is abit of a stretch i think. even last year's posts didnt have that many people rejecting HLS(of course, also allowing for non-posting-rejectors), n also it does not necessarily follow that all those who got Yale eventually chose it over harv, or in fact, that all those who were admitted to Yale had also necessarily been admitted to HLS, notwithstanding the ridiculously small YLS class).

Again, multiple plausible theories, little concrete data. Anyone on the inside?? lol, scratch that, anyone with some data, any one??
u make a good point. but then again, not all those on the wait-list were posting, and it is at least conceivable(even if improbable) that the rejected offers were indeed passed on to some on the non-posting-wait-listers.

then again, considering that there were deferrals even the previous year, the whole thing gets blurred.i dont know whether those guys have to confirm their attendance by an earlier deadline(earlier than the admissions process), so as determine the slots left for passing around.

either way,even conceding some kind of modest inflation to allow for rejected offers, 200, or any number beyond 170 is abit of a stretch i think. even last year's posts didnt have that many people rejecting HLS(of course, also allowing for non-posting-rejectors), n also it does not necessarily follow that all those who got Yale eventually chose it over harv, or in fact, that all those who were admitted to Yale had also necessarily been admitted to HLS, notwithstanding the ridiculously small YLS class).

Again, multiple plausible theories, little concrete data. Anyone on the inside?? lol, scratch that, anyone with some data, any one??
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i would genuinely hope for single's scenario. besides, its not just YLS the people are choosing over harvard. There's the NYU Hauser, Chicago, SLS, Oxbridge, etc, for a variety of reasons. Of course, its not a very big number, but i would imagine a number of initial offers hovering around 170-200 would be a good bet.
i would genuinely hope for single's scenario. besides, its not just YLS the people are choosing over harvard. There's the NYU Hauser, Chicago, SLS, Oxbridge, etc, for a variety of reasons. Of course, its not a very big number, but i would imagine a number of initial offers hovering around 170-200 would be a good bet.
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Busingye
u are right:), its not just the YLS fellows rejecting harv, and i do love the look of 200!! Oh, to be among the number...when the saints go marching in;) lol
u are right:), its not just the YLS fellows rejecting harv, and i do love the look of 200!! Oh, to be among the number...when the saints go marching in;) lol
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dam
Then we should gauge that columbia sent 210 offers (approximate size of their current LLM class) plus 100-130 offers to replace people that will go to harvard - considering that at least 80% of harvard admitted students applied, and was admitted to, columbia as well. Plus a handful of slots to make up for Yale, Stanford, Oxbridge defections etc.
It all seems to make sense, but then: How many offers do much lower ranked schools send?
Then we should gauge that columbia sent 210 offers (approximate size of their current LLM class) plus 100-130 offers to replace people that will go to harvard - considering that at least 80% of harvard admitted students applied, and was admitted to, columbia as well. Plus a handful of slots to make up for Yale, Stanford, Oxbridge defections etc.
It all seems to make sense, but then: How many offers do much lower ranked schools send?
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marina81
Hi,

I am currently an LLM student at Stanford and was admitted to Harvard last year.

I confirm that many people here were also admitted to Harvard last year and... everybody is very happy with his/her choice: very small program 25 people - where you have the chance to be known and to receive the individual attention of faculty members, personalized attention of a very small program combined with the resources of one of the worlds leading universities, intense and practical interaction with the Silicon Valley technology business community, incredible job and networking opportunities (many many people here have already received and accepted permanent job offers from top American law firms ie Cleary, Skadden, Simpson Thacher, etc in Palo Alto or in New York), all enjoyed in a very safe, sunny and wonderful campus just 30 miles south of San Francisco

Best of luck to every single one of you! The best is yet to come
Hi,

I am currently an LLM student at Stanford and was admitted to Harvard last year.

I confirm that many people here were also admitted to Harvard last year and... everybody is very happy with his/her choice: very small program – 25 people - where you have the chance to be known and to receive the individual attention of faculty members, personalized attention of a very small program combined with the resources of one of the world’s leading universities, intense and practical interaction with the Silicon Valley technology business community, incredible job and networking opportunities (many many people here have already received and accepted permanent job offers from top American law firms ie Cleary, Skadden, Simpson Thacher, etc… in Palo Alto or in New York), all enjoyed in a very safe, sunny and wonderful campus just 30 miles south of San Francisco…

Best of luck to every single one of you! The best is yet to come…
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Marina81, thanks for this.

I wonder if there were any people last year who accepted Columbia and rejected Harvard?
Marina81, thanks for this.

I wonder if there were any people last year who accepted Columbia and rejected Harvard?
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Busingye
Guys, i hate to do this...but i knew there was some reason why the number "150" was bouncing around my head. Just poked around the HLS web(talk of insider info), and found this

http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/graduate/admissions/llm.php

"Admissions Criteria
Admission to the LL.M. Program is highly competitive. Last year approximately 1,500 applicants competed for around 150 places in the LL.M. Program. Most applicants are fully qualified for the program, and the Committee on Graduate Studies must select from among a large number of candidates who have excellent credentials. In evaluating applications, the Committee takes into consideration the applicant's grades and rank in his or her law and other university studies, letters of recommendation, occupational interests, professional and personal accomplishments, and other factors, including the following:

For LL.M. Applicants from Abroad
The Program is designed for intellectually curious and thoughtful candidates who come from a variety of legal systems and backgrounds and who have demonstrated an intent to return to their country to contribute to the academy or legal profession. We are equally interested in applicants pursuing careers in law teaching and research, government service, the judiciary, international organizations, non-governmental organizations and private practice.

For LL.M. Applicants from the United States
The Program is designed for graduates of U.S. law schools who have had at least two or three years of experience beyond law school and who have committed themselves to a career in law teaching. In the admissions process, the Committee focuses primarily on applicants who have excelled in their basic law school studies, who elicit strong letters of recommendation from law school teachers and others familiar with their work, and who have spent at least two years working as a law school teacher, judicial clerk, or practitioner in a public agency or private practice. Evidence of graduate education in a field other than law is also significant. Weight will be given to materials demonstrating the applicant's interest in, commitment to, and capability for a career in law teaching."

Of course, this may not be the whole story, as the may not very well say explicitly that they make more offers than actual places because of defection rates;), but still there is no reason to disbelieve the general (grim)picture provided by these stats! whichever way u look at it, 1500 for 150(and these were 2006, or were they 2005? figs) is not a comforting bedtime thought:(
Guys, i hate to do this...but i knew there was some reason why the number "150" was bouncing around my head. Just poked around the HLS web(talk of insider info), and found this

http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/graduate/admissions/llm.php

"Admissions Criteria
Admission to the LL.M. Program is highly competitive. Last year approximately 1,500 applicants competed for around 150 places in the LL.M. Program. Most applicants are fully qualified for the program, and the Committee on Graduate Studies must select from among a large number of candidates who have excellent credentials. In evaluating applications, the Committee takes into consideration the applicant's grades and rank in his or her law and other university studies, letters of recommendation, occupational interests, professional and personal accomplishments, and other factors, including the following:

For LL.M. Applicants from Abroad
The Program is designed for intellectually curious and thoughtful candidates who come from a variety of legal systems and backgrounds and who have demonstrated an intent to return to their country to contribute to the academy or legal profession. We are equally interested in applicants pursuing careers in law teaching and research, government service, the judiciary, international organizations, non-governmental organizations and private practice.

For LL.M. Applicants from the United States
The Program is designed for graduates of U.S. law schools who have had at least two or three years of experience beyond law school and who have committed themselves to a career in law teaching. In the admissions process, the Committee focuses primarily on applicants who have excelled in their basic law school studies, who elicit strong letters of recommendation from law school teachers and others familiar with their work, and who have spent at least two years working as a law school teacher, judicial clerk, or practitioner in a public agency or private practice. Evidence of graduate education in a field other than law is also significant. Weight will be given to materials demonstrating the applicant's interest in, commitment to, and capability for a career in law teaching."

Of course, this may not be the whole story, as the may not very well say explicitly that they make more offers than actual places because of defection rates;), but still there is no reason to disbelieve the general (grim)picture provided by these stats! whichever way u look at it, 1500 for 150(and these were 2006, or were they 2005? figs) is not a comforting bedtime thought:(
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Of course they'd say this. What do you expect: "We send 200 offers every year, but only 150 actually accept"?
Of course they'd say this. What do you expect: "We send 200 offers every year, but only 150 actually accept"?
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Busingye
Of course they'd say this. What do you expect: "We send 200 offers every year, but only 150 actually accept"?


half full, half empty:)
<blockquote>Of course they'd say this. What do you expect: "We send 200 offers every year, but only 150 actually accept"?</blockquote>

half full, half empty:)
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Take it easy. Extra 50 offers do not significantly increase your chances (or mine) anyway.

It's just that all these schools are not as exclusive as they pretend to be. Oxford sends out ca 250 offers for the 150 places. Can you just imagine how many offers NYU makes for its 400 places???
Take it easy. Extra 50 offers do not significantly increase your chances (or mine) anyway.

It's just that all these schools are not as exclusive as they pretend to be. Oxford sends out ca 250 offers for the 150 places. Can you just imagine how many offers NYU makes for its 400 places???
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