Frenchies admitted to UPenn


I have been rejected from Penn Law. As I'd like to figure out if my grades were insufficient or if it was just a matter of more carefully drafting my personal statement, could anyone who has been admitted provide me with their grades average (especially if they though it was rather low, I'd like to know if there seem to be a set minimum). Please do not be shy and reply. It is anonynous and would be of great help to me as I may re-apply next year depending on your answers. Tks.
I have been rejected from Penn Law. As I'd like to figure out if my grades were insufficient or if it was just a matter of more carefully drafting my personal statement, could anyone who has been admitted provide me with their grades average (especially if they though it was rather low, I'd like to know if there seem to be a set minimum). Please do not be shy and reply. It is anonynous and would be of great help to me as I may re-apply next year depending on your answers. Tks.
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yueping
it's not only about the grades or the quality of your statement, but your background (work experience even if it's not entirely related to law, what kind of degree you actually possess, etc.) A Maitrise en Droit is the bare minimum.
it's not only about the grades or the quality of your statement, but your background (work experience even if it's not entirely related to law, what kind of degree you actually possess, etc.) A Maitrise en Droit is the bare minimum.
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lafayette
Hi midobernard !

i'm a french student too. Maybe you could share with us your credential? Grades, toefl score, experience, publications,..?

see you
Hi midobernard !

i'm a french student too. Maybe you could share with us your credential? Grades, toefl score, experience, publications,..?

see you

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My credentials:
GPA: 11,5/20
TOEF: 287
"Concours Francis Lefèbvres" first prize
Maîtrise in Business Law,
(English) Diploma in business law (upper second, B+)
DESS in business law, thesis summa cum laude (18/20)
I have published 2 articles: one in Dalloz and one in JCP
I have done several internships incl. two in leading law firms
I've been working for almost 2 years for a boutique American international law firm
My credentials:
GPA: 11,5/20
TOEF: 287
"Concours Francis Lefèbvres" first prize
Maîtrise in Business Law,
(English) Diploma in business law (upper second, B+)
DESS in business law, thesis summa cum laude (18/20)
I have published 2 articles: one in Dalloz and one in JCP
I have done several internships incl. two in leading law firms
I've been working for almost 2 years for a boutique American international law firm


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yueping
A bit off topic but how did you manage to write in the Dalloz or JCP ?
Don't they require someone with a Doctorate degree ?

I'm quite impressed with your credentials (Concours Francis Lefevres, publications, great thesis, etc.)
Is your GPA for Licence, Maitrise or DESS ?
Which university were you at ?

For Licence, I got slightly less than 12, slightly higher than 12 for Maitrise (no mention for both years), and got a lower TOEFL than you.
A bit off topic but how did you manage to write in the Dalloz or JCP ?
Don't they require someone with a Doctorate degree ?

I'm quite impressed with your credentials (Concours Francis Lefevres, publications, great thesis, etc.)
Is your GPA for Licence, Maitrise or DESS ?
Which university were you at ?

For Licence, I got slightly less than 12, slightly higher than 12 for Maitrise (no mention for both years), and got a lower TOEFL than you.
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Salomon
Hi,

To answer midobernard's query, I have been admitted to UPenn, am still waiting for HLS, CLS and NYU and here are my credentials :

I just turned 26, I got the CAPA last december and I currently work in the arbitration department in the Paris office of a US law firm. I did all my studies at Paris II, never got a "mention" during the four years of Maitrise (btw, Maitrise of Comparative Law) but got one (AB) for my DEA Droits de Common Law and one (AB) for my DESS Litigation - Arbitration. I did long internships in the arbitration departments of Jones Day and the firm I am working in currently. I got a 290 TOEFL score. My letters of recommendation were drafted by two partner lawyers (both LLMs) and two law professors (French and US).

Hope this helps.
Hi,

To answer midobernard's query, I have been admitted to UPenn, am still waiting for HLS, CLS and NYU and here are my credentials :

I just turned 26, I got the CAPA last december and I currently work in the arbitration department in the Paris office of a US law firm. I did all my studies at Paris II, never got a "mention" during the four years of Maitrise (btw, Maitrise of Comparative Law) but got one (AB) for my DEA Droits de Common Law and one (AB) for my DESS Litigation - Arbitration. I did long internships in the arbitration departments of Jones Day and the firm I am working in currently. I got a 290 TOEFL score. My letters of recommendation were drafted by two partner lawyers (both LLMs) and two law professors (French and US).

Hope this helps.

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Thanks Salomon. This does help. I guess the main difference between your credentials and mine is the university you attended. Paris II has got an excellent reputation. Still, I'm left with hope. Tks and congrats:)
Thanks Salomon. This does help. I guess the main difference between your credentials and mine is the university you attended. Paris II has got an excellent reputation. Still, I'm left with hope. Tks and congrats:)
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Yueping,
On my publications:
- found a hot topic on a specialized subject (nothing had been published on the issue although it had some pratical importance, plus a legislative report on my topic was issued 1 or 2 weeks before my submissions)
- Got some support from a lawyer nown as the specialist in the field
- Was very lucky to combine the above as I do not have a doctorate:)
Yueping,
On my publications:
- found a hot topic on a specialized subject (nothing had been published on the issue although it had some pratical importance, plus a legislative report on my topic was issued 1 or 2 weeks before my submissions)
- Got some support from a lawyer nown as the specialist in the field
- Was very lucky to combine the above as I do not have a doctorate:)
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yueping
which uni are you from ?
which uni are you from ?
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Yueping: I studied at Rennes 1. I believe it is well regarded in France, but it seems that abroad Assas and La Sorbonne are the only universities with a good reputation.
Yueping: I studied at Rennes 1. I believe it is well regarded in France, but it seems that abroad Assas and La Sorbonne are the only universities with a good reputation.
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BUB
Everybody seems to think that only Assas and Sorboe have a good reputation. I hope that the admission commitee don't think the same.

All universities are public in France, financed by the government. There are no selection at the time of admission (except for the Master II) and moreover ther are no competition between those universities (yes..i understand, it looks a bit like a soviet system!). I thus think that it is absolutly unfair to give the best reputation to one of them.
Of course, I agree that these law school (Paris I and II) have very good professors, maybe some of the best in France, but since there are neither competion between schools, nor students selection, this reputetion, which can only refered to historical facts, is skewed.

under the french legal deucation system, the only way to compare students, is not the school which they came from, but rather their grades, honors, and Master II (ex DESS/DEA) acceptance.
Everybody seems to think that only Assas and Sorboe have a good reputation. I hope that the admission commitee don't think the same.

All universities are public in France, financed by the government. There are no selection at the time of admission (except for the Master II) and moreover ther are no competition between those universities (yes..i understand, it looks a bit like a soviet system!). I thus think that it is absolutly unfair to give the best reputation to one of them.
Of course, I agree that these law school (Paris I and II) have very good professors, maybe some of the best in France, but since there are neither competion between schools, nor students selection, this reputetion, which can only refered to historical facts, is skewed.

under the french legal deucation system, the only way to compare students, is not the school which they came from, but rather their grades, honors, and Master II (ex DESS/DEA) acceptance.
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Salomon
I kind of agree with such a rationale. However, and although French universities are indeed not competiting, the level of law studies is not the same in Paris (or Aix or Bordeaux) as in La Roche sur Yon or Montceau Les Mines. And every one evolging in the legal sphere knows perfectly well that it is harder to have good grades in the formers than in the latters. Another side effect of the "parasianism" and centralization....
I kind of agree with such a rationale. However, and although French universities are indeed not competiting, the level of law studies is not the same in Paris (or Aix or Bordeaux) as in La Roche sur Yon or Montceau Les Mines. And every one evolging in the legal sphere knows perfectly well that it is harder to have good grades in the formers than in the latters. Another side effect of the "parasianism" and centralization....
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yueping
Solomon is right : not all law schools are equal, even in France. The level is not the same whether you are in Paris or Amiens. The grading approach is different, the academic standard is different, etc.

The following extract is taken from Cornell's website :

"Unlike the University of Paris I (Panthéon Sorbonne), many other French universities grant the above honors at a GPA of 16, 14, and 12, respectively. Hence, a student at the University of Paris I (Panthéon Sorbonne) needs a higher GPA to obtain the same level of honors as a student at many other French universities. This objective difference should be kept in mind when comparing the transcripts of students at the different French law schools.

Moreover, professors at the University of Paris I (Panthéon Sorbonne) have a stricter grading approach. They generally grade most students at 13 or below, and rarely give grades higher than a 15. This demanding grading approach reflects the facultys high academic standards, as well as its commitment to the Universitys prestige and excellence. Hence, maintaining a high GPA at the University of Paris I (Panthéon Sorbonne) is much harder than at most other universities. Aware of this idiosyncrasy, French employers hire students from the University of Paris I (Panthéon Sorbonne) even though their GPA is several points below that of their colleagues at other French universities. "
Solomon is right : not all law schools are equal, even in France. The level is not the same whether you are in Paris or Amiens. The grading approach is different, the academic standard is different, etc.

The following extract is taken from Cornell's website :

"Unlike the University of Paris I (Panthéon Sorbonne), many other French universities grant the above honors at a GPA of 16, 14, and 12, respectively. Hence, a student at the University of Paris I (Panthéon Sorbonne) needs a higher GPA to obtain the same level of honors as a student at many other French universities. This objective difference should be kept in mind when comparing the transcripts of students at the different French law schools.

Moreover, professors at the University of Paris I (Panthéon Sorbonne) have a stricter grading approach. They generally grade most students at 13 or below, and rarely give grades higher than a 15. This demanding grading approach reflects the faculty’s high academic standards, as well as its commitment to the University’s prestige and excellence. Hence, maintaining a high GPA at the University of Paris I (Panthéon Sorbonne) is much harder than at most other universities. Aware of this idiosyncrasy, French employers hire students from the University of Paris I (Panthéon Sorbonne) even though their GPA is several points below that of their colleagues at other French universities. "
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BUB
I never meant that all law schools are equals in france. As Salomon said, University of Chaslon sur Soâne can't be regarded as having the same level of Paris I.

I mean that, contrary to the US (and many other countries), where you can evaluate one student's level by the school he has attended, in France that approach does not works (for law schools, it is different for business school or "engineer" school).
Someone who graduaded from La Sorbonne, is not better than someone who came from Bordeaux or Montpellier Law schools simply because he studied there.
Whereas, someone who graduated from NYU, Harvard or Yale is inevitably better (at least, better grades) than someone who was at University of Hawaii.
The reason that explain this difference is easy: there are no selections at law school in France (except DESS/DEA/DJCE). If someone want to study at Paris I, he just has to register there. That is why in most of the cases, french students study in the closest univ. of where they live.
Concerning the honors system, I agree that at Paris I, students need one more points for each distinctions, but as far as I know, Aix en Provence univ. requires this also, and I never heard that Aix was one the best university in France.

I definitely think that saying that Paris I or II are the best univ. is a skewed reasoning. On the other hand, it is true that some Master II of Paris I or II are absolutely some of the best (but here there are selections!)
I never meant that all law schools are equals in france. As Salomon said, University of Chaslon sur Soâne can't be regarded as having the same level of Paris I.

I mean that, contrary to the US (and many other countries), where you can evaluate one student's level by the school he has attended, in France that approach does not works (for law schools, it is different for business school or "engineer" school).
Someone who graduaded from La Sorbonne, is not better than someone who came from Bordeaux or Montpellier Law schools simply because he studied there.
Whereas, someone who graduated from NYU, Harvard or Yale is inevitably better (at least, better grades) than someone who was at University of Hawaii.
The reason that explain this difference is easy: there are no selections at law school in France (except DESS/DEA/DJCE). If someone want to study at Paris I, he just has to register there. That is why in most of the cases, french students study in the closest univ. of where they live.
Concerning the honors system, I agree that at Paris I, students need one more points for each distinctions, but as far as I know, Aix en Provence univ. requires this also, and I never heard that Aix was one the best university in France.

I definitely think that saying that Paris I or II are the best univ. is a skewed reasoning. On the other hand, it is true that some Master II of Paris I or II are absolutely some of the best (but here there are selections!)
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Mandingo
"There are no selection at the time of admission"

What the hell..Can somebody explain?
"There are no selection at the time of admission"

What the hell..Can somebody explain?
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Mandingo
Obviously we posted simultaniously.. so my question is answered.

Can anyone just register to study also medicine, political science, engineering etc. ?
Obviously we posted simultaniously.. so my question is answered.

Can anyone just register to study also medicine, political science, engineering etc. ?
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yueping
He meant that since universities are public in France, if you happen to live in Paris, you are automatically admitted to a university in Paris.

However, the following statement is not true : "If someone want to study at Paris I, he just has to register there."
If you live outside of Paris, there is a selection if you want to go to Paris I. And there is a selection for the Master level too (former DEA/DESS). I know lots of classmates who were at Paris I since their 1st year of Law but who were forced to migrate to universities outside of Paris as they were not admitted for Master 2 where there is a tough selection
He meant that since universities are public in France, if you happen to live in Paris, you are automatically admitted to a university in Paris.

However, the following statement is not true : "If someone want to study at Paris I, he just has to register there."
If you live outside of Paris, there is a selection if you want to go to Paris I. And there is a selection for the Master level too (former DEA/DESS). I know lots of classmates who were at Paris I since their 1st year of Law but who were forced to migrate to universities outside of Paris as they were not admitted for Master 2 where there is a tough selection
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Salomon
@BUB "and I never heard that Aix was one the best university in France"

I never studied there but it has a pretty good reputation and is very well regarded in specific fields such as Human Rights Law or Public International Law (Aix's students often participate in the Jessup Competition which is an worlwide Public. Int'L Law ICJ moot competition- the law firm I am working in organizes the french national rounds and Aix qualified, ending second, for the international finals in Washington DC, along with la Sorbonne who ended first of the national rounds - and in the Concours Jean Pictet, specializing in Human Rights Law)

@Mandingo : As long as you chose to study in public universities (as opposed to "Grandes Ecoles" wich are only accessible through hard and very selective exams (very strong numerous clausus)), you are free to register wherever you want and for whatever field of study. The selection is not made at the entry but during the studies, through natural selection : good students pass and bad students fail (there is no numerus clausus, though - at least not officially). There is an exeception, though, as to medecine : while you are free to register in the first year of medical studies, a numerus clausus exam is organised at the end of that first year. Failing students must retake the exam at the end of a second first year.
@BUB "and I never heard that Aix was one the best university in France"

I never studied there but it has a pretty good reputation and is very well regarded in specific fields such as Human Rights Law or Public International Law (Aix's students often participate in the Jessup Competition which is an worlwide Public. Int'L Law ICJ moot competition- the law firm I am working in organizes the french national rounds and Aix qualified, ending second, for the international finals in Washington DC, along with la Sorbonne who ended first of the national rounds - and in the Concours Jean Pictet, specializing in Human Rights Law)

@Mandingo : As long as you chose to study in public universities (as opposed to "Grandes Ecoles" wich are only accessible through hard and very selective exams (very strong numerous clausus)), you are free to register wherever you want and for whatever field of study. The selection is not made at the entry but during the studies, through natural selection : good students pass and bad students fail (there is no numerus clausus, though - at least not officially). There is an exeception, though, as to medecine : while you are free to register in the first year of medical studies, a numerus clausus exam is organised at the end of that first year. Failing students must retake the exam at the end of a second first year.
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Mandingo
Thanks guys, it's interesting to learn about the differences in educational systems. I have couple of more questions, if you bare with me;)

Are the grandes ecoles considered the most prestigious then?
Can one study law there?

Doesn't the lack of numerus clausus in entrance mean a terrible burden for the public unis? I think that even though the universities are public also in Germany and the Nordic countries, they nevertheless have entrance exams.(Can Germans and Nordics verify this?)
Thanks guys, it's interesting to learn about the differences in educational systems. I have couple of more questions, if you bare with me;)

Are the grandes ecoles considered the most prestigious then?
Can one study law there?

Doesn't the lack of numerus clausus in entrance mean a terrible burden for the public unis? I think that even though the universities are public also in Germany and the Nordic countries, they nevertheless have entrance exams.(Can Germans and Nordics verify this?)
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BUB
Mandigo, I definetly think that the "Grandes Ecoles" are more prestigious than universities, but you need to go to the public law schools, except in some special cases, if you want to practice law (that's a monopolistic situation). Nonetheless, Law School is not an easy thing at all (passing rates are very low), and, as strange as it is, even if law schools are less prestigious, the education you get there is excellent, and in general it has a very good reputation and pacticing law is not just a matter of prestige.

Concerning the burden for law school, I agree with you, that pushes the level downwards during the first years. But as you probably know, unfortunatly it is sometimes a hard thing to change system in France.
Mandigo, I definetly think that the "Grandes Ecoles" are more prestigious than universities, but you need to go to the public law schools, except in some special cases, if you want to practice law (that's a monopolistic situation). Nonetheless, Law School is not an easy thing at all (passing rates are very low), and, as strange as it is, even if law schools are less prestigious, the education you get there is excellent, and in general it has a very good reputation and pacticing law is not just a matter of prestige.

Concerning the burden for law school, I agree with you, that pushes the level downwards during the first years. But as you probably know, unfortunatly it is sometimes a hard thing to change system in France.
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