Dear all,

I urgently need to make a decision between Columbia and UCLA. Both law schools offered me a partial tuition waiver in the same amount. However, tuition and living expenses will still stretch my budget to the max.

I am torn between both universities.
Obviously, CLS has the better US News ranking (rank 4) and is perceived as the more elite institution. Also, NYC is home of the most interesting Biglaw firms.

However, living cost in NYU are apparently obscenely high. And I have just read this very bleak article on ATL about NYC: http://abovethelaw.com/2009/04/is_nyc_done.php#comments

The majority of commentators on this article agree that NYC is absurdly expensive and that you get low value for money (very instrucitve e.g. comment no. 300) and this is even more so since teh credit crunch.

On the other hand, LA has one of the most adorable climates in the world. And to live in a flat in Santa Monica close to the beach for one year does sound very appealing to me.

I also wonder if LA might not be almost as expensive in living cost (consider not only rent but also food and transport) as NYC.

Therefore I would be very grateful for your opinions on my question.

Regarding my person: I am a practicing junior lawyer at an international law firm in Germany. I have extremely strong credentials in my own jurisdiction (and from the UK) and I intend to return to Germany (either directlly after the LL.M. or after 1 year as a foreign associate, if possible). I therefore do not need the reputation of CLS to find a job after my studies.

The reason for my application for an LL.M. in the US were mainly my "thirst for knowledge" and my aspiration to broaden my commercial understanding (and, of course, to get a further distinction in my CV).

Sorry this post got so long and I would really appreciate your input!

Many thanks,
corpus

Columbia without a doubt.

It might be bit more expensive (approx. USD 10,000), but you will regret it later on if you choose UCLA over Columbia.

What do you think about the ATL article?
It really scared me off a bit...

Guten Tag Corpus. I understand your motivations and goals, and therefore why hesitating between UCLA and CLS isn't as ridiculous as ranking-obsessed persons have and will imply when reading/responding to your thread.

Out of curiosity, I know it's too late now but have you applied to Berkeley and Stanford? Have you been rejected? Based on what you said, I strongly believe they'd be the ideal law schools for you given your credentials and motives.
If you haven't even applied, my suggestion would be to ask for a deferral at both CLS and UCLA and reapply next year at SLS and UCB.

Hey Hedek,

indeed, SLS would have been my absolute favorite. But alas, I have been rejected.

I did not apply to BLS or HLS, as I was a little on the late side and did not make the December 1 deadline. .

So only reason for deferral could be BLS, but although there certainly is a chance I could not be sure that I would get an admission offer from Berkeley. Plus: At age 29 I am not really getting younger anymore and the fun ends at a certain age... ;)

Sorry to hear about Stanford and Berkeley. Did UCLA at least offer a tuition waiver or some sort of scholarship?

We're not getting any younger indeed, but does it matter at all whether this 1yr break is taken now or next year?

I don't want to give you any false hopes but you might be accepted at SLS if you reapply. And if you were accepted at CLS the chances of being accepted at Berkeley are extremely high.

One thing you could do is email Berkeley. Explain your situation (accepted at CLS, missed the UCB deadline) attach some of the materials such as scanned grades, resume and perhaps a recommendation letter, and ask them whether deferring CLS in order to apply at UCB would be an inconsiderate risk. If your credentials are really excellent, they might be willing to give you an unofficial decision, especially if that means taking a promising student away from CLS ;-)

Hedek,

UCLA and CLS both granted me a minor tuition waiver. CLS was even much quicker and more forthcoming with the waiver.

I am not entirely repelled by the thought of living in NYC. Actually, I applied there because I thought and still think that it should be an outstanding expereince to live there. However, lateley, I have heard many not-so-positive reports. So I would like to reiterate my question:

What do you think of the ATL article? Are other cities more "liveworthy" nowadays for an LL.M.-student?

Your suggestion regarding the deferral is indeed intriguing. However, the decision to defer also implies added complexity, inter alia how to deal with my current job and flat until then. Therefore, deferral is still not my favorite option.

To be perfectly honest (and sorry in advance if my wording will sound rather toxic but unfortunately message boards do not convey face expressions and tone, I really mean it in a friendly way)

If you allow one single article written by who knows who affect your decision, and even worse, if you ask people you don't even know on a message board what they think about that article, then something is really wrong.

Yes NYC, as the financial hub of the USA, was hardly hit by the financial market crisis.
The article merely states that since salaries are decreasing and given that living expenses haven't dropped despite the crisis, an offer from a NYC firm no longer guarantees the highest pay in the country. From now on and more than ever, lower salaries in other cities may actually prove more financially attractive.
So the "advice" of this article is that when comparing offers, the raw amount of a salary means nothing. You also have to take into account living expenses. Wow big discovery!

But since a) NYC is still NYC, the skyscrapers, the clubs, the music, the statue of liberty, the metropolitan museum, the UN headquarters, etc. are still all there b) you're only going there for a year, c) you're not getting paid anyways, and d) you don't intend to work there after your LLM, this article does not concern you the slightest.

Therefore, if you're not as repelled by the idea of going to NYC as I first thought, and that deferring is impractical for you, then by all means accept CLS' offer.

Thanks for elaborating, Hedek ;) No offence taken.
Apparently, you also see a significant difference in reputation/excellence of eduaction between UCLA and CLS.

You are of course very right about your statement that self-respsonsible people should not base their decisions on articles and internet boards. However, in my defence I must say that I have never been to NYC and that I need to rely on secondary sources, that is friens, hearsay, newspaper articles and internet boards to form my decision. I will take all available info into account and then decide for myself. :-)

Again, your remarks have been very helpful and are much appreciated!

Apparently, you also see a significant difference in reputation/excellence of eduaction between UCLA and CLS.

Hello everybody! I can relate to the dilemma that has been occasioned in the form of choosing and picking one school over the other. I find myself in the same boat. I have been accepted by ucla and berkeley for the upcoming LL.M. session . I also share this academic interest in the fields of corporate law and finance. Since berkeley dosent offer a specialized corporate of business law degree as ucla does , I tilited in Ucla 's direction and received posts acknowleding the awesome program offered at ucla and to the effect of above mentioned facts. so for now i am deciding to choose ucla. I might be wrong, but Berkeley is too expensive. Received good tuition waiver from ucla. But dude columbia is awesome. I know that didnt help much , but the beaches and santa monica , i can feel the winds blowing , besides in the end even harvard graduates dont always steal the crown jewels . Luck , connection , hardwork and some nice sneaky skills would get you more closer to those crown jewels than any ivy league stamp. i think my post qualifies the classic text book case of surmise dicta .
Columbia is No.1 if this helps, If you cant make it because of costs , ucla is No. 1 not beacuse of some rating but because you think it is , besides pallisade beaches are awesome.

I can really understand your situation. One factor you should take into account is that an LL.M. at Columbia is certainly extremely time consuming and quite hard (one of the hardest LL.M. programs in the States). UCLA means much more free time... If you intend to return to Germany, the prestige of the university does not matter that much (it seems that you are aware of this anyway). Also, in Germany there are many professors and well-known attorneys who received their LL.M. from UCLA.

On the other hand, even if the climate is fantastic in LA, some people do not like the city at all (no city center, no real city, car required...)

Very difficult decision though... If I was you, I would probably tend to choose LA as you might have a better (more relaxed) time in LA.

Thanks again for your interesting insights.

Hanna.Vienna: I am not worried by the possible difficulty of the CLS program. I think I can handle and it will certainly be a vacation compared to my current job. Plus a friend of mine studied there and got his share of free time as well. :-)

Right now I am tending to choose CLS, inter alia out of vanity, because I think if two universities give me exactly the same offer I should choose the more reputed one. However I agree with your assessment, Hanna, that this difference in reputation will scarcely be noticed in Germany.

Wolla pointed out that a year in NYC will cost aobut US $ 10.000 more than a year in LA. Put into the context overall costs of approx. US $ 80.000,- for the whole year (including tuition) this does not seem to be too significant of a difference.

Still I think megawatti's choice is also very interesting. Megawatti, like you, I specialised in corporate law and would interested in UCLA's business law track. What are your sources for the assertion that this is such a highly acknowledged program that you would choose it over higher ranked Berkeley?

To be honestly true , i still havent stepped my foot down yet . Hanna from Vienna convinced me along with lastlear and santa ofcourse . I know this answer fails to inspire any confidence at all or logic, since hanna herself is going to berkeley. But so far the specialized business degree offered at ucla , as per the suggestions and overall business rating amongst many circles puts ucla almost at par with berkeley . and as i will have to incur significantly way more cost for choosing to exercise berkeley option and since prospects of getting a job in us after LL.M. are next to none , unless you are the next noam chomsky which again is very unlikely . I am leaning towrads ucla. But even if today someone tells me that berkeley is better known than ucla on the corporate side , i would go for berkeley. So i am just letting time determine the future course . Paying every penny for harvard was completely understandable , i am not so sure for anything else.

Thanks for the explanation megawatti, that sounds reasonable.
I sent you a PM. :)

The life experience you will get by living in NYC is worth every penny...
When you do the LL.M. you can really understand that students at CLS or NYU have the best time of their life!
When students from others universities come to NYC for the job fair in January they all regret that they were not accepted or they did not accept CLS or NYU (including those from Berkeley, Stanford, UCLA, etc...)
Four of my classmates this year at CLS had rejected SLS offers and chose CLS just because of NYC, and believe me they still say that it was the best decision of their life!
CLS is one of the best Law School in the world (as NYU) and as an LL.M. it will not make such a huge difference if you go to SLS or CLS...but compare PAlo Alto and NYC and do the maths!


Choose NYC!

Hey Pitch!

Sounds like you really had a great experience at CLS! Could you elaborate a little bit about what made your experience so worthwhile? And haven't you and your friends been tempted by the great climate in Palo Alto in the slightest?

BTW: You have got PM!

my2cents

In my humble opinion (besides my handle name and associated bias), UCLA has a better and known corporate and business track faculty than CLS. The school corporate law curriculum, seminar courses beat CLS any day of the week except weekends because most teaching staff of UCLA are busy soking sun and tanning skin, reading some legal thriller and eventually turning them later into a motion picture.

That said, NYC is not behind inspite of these cited reads, but certainly times have changes recently, as it always does and life in NYC has become more toxic and hard for new associates considering ongoing lay offs, deferments, and white elephants refusal to correct their behavior.

Considering the ranking, CLS is better overall but not in corporate law and NYC life has its own size and shape depending on one's preferences. If ones preferences is life with specific track specialization and not keen on spending time in a city which smells potholes, crowded subway, crumpy studios (student budget) and winter snow then LA is the place to go. NYC do offers weekend getaways at Hamptons and north towards Wesport (CT) and Maine if you willing to drive some more in fall. Hey but how can u miss, the sun, sand and silky wind on a nice moderate day on Santa Monica beach reading a book and shiping the mix and adorable pacific's untiring blue currents. And if get tired with that then take out the car and just keep on going pacific hwy for unimaginable miles toward Malibu and you might see somewhere down the stretch dear Charlie doing his adventures and you'll love it and say jesus lord, how could have I missed this year long study and fun.

BTW >>> I am going to do Entertainment & Media track so no bias no bull, just the facts.

@road2ucla.....nice pitch! I'm sure you can make into entertainment and media.

Columbia Law School anyday, without a second thought. They've one of the best program in corporate law. A top 5 school, whereas UCLA is somewhere near 15. Is there exists any comparison, really? Go for Columbia without doubt.