I know that you are stressed right now because of all these admission letters that just don't want to land in your mailbox. But guess what: in 1 month you will laugh about all that!

@ Salomon
"Here's laughing with you,kid..."
Hiring information collected this year from 45 of the top 50 law firms listed on the National Law Journal's 2004 survey of the nation's largest law firms (five firms declined to participate); class size as collected by the American Bar Association for 2004
WHERE THE TOP 50 FIRMS HIRED FROM
Law school: Assoc hired ’05;# of’04 J.Ds; % hired@ top 50 firms-
Columbia Law 151 397 38%
Northwestern 82 224 37%
Univ Penn 91 249 37%
Univ of Chicago 69 191 36%
Stanford Law 57 177 32%
Cornell Law 59 186 32%
New York Univ 137 439 31%
Harvard Law 166 551 30%
Univ of Virginia 103 359 29%
Duke Law 61 237 26%
Yale Law School 46 183 25%
Univ of Michigan 87 387 22%
UC Berkeley 72 322 22%
Georgetown U 149 687 22%
Vanderbilt Univ 38 195 19%
Univ of Texas 88 466 19%
Univ of Illinois 39 214 18%
UCLA 48 328 15%
Univ Notre Dame 24 166 14%
Boston University 33 233 14%

WHAT A JOKE!!! There are so many flaws in this ranking that I am considering not wasting my time to discuss it.

Help us out here... If it's a joke we all want to laugh...
Many of us out here don't have the experience to determine what is a fallcious numerical manipulation from an arithmatical summation.
It was just taken off of the National Law Journal website and it appears to be just a numerical sumation of the number of JD's that were hired by the top 50 law firms.
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1126256708738

Okay. I will offer my help.

1) Many top students clerk for a couple of years before joining a law firm. Specially true for Yale, Harvard and Stanford.

2) Many top students (specially JDs-MBAs) go to ngos, I-banks, private equity funds. So the ranking does not show how many students wanted to work for a top law firm and eventually got a position. My experience tells me that ANY JD from Yale, Harvard or Stanford can get into a top 50 firm.

3) I don't think it is the same to be hired by a top-tier firm (top 10 vault guide) and a bottom 50. The ranking makes no difference.

4) I just cannot believe that your chances to get hired in a Top 50 law firm is much higher if you go to Northwestern than Harvard or Yale. Can you????

Can we all laugh now?

@Paul
Here's the article....I think it is clear on it's own merits...You're probably right with some of your inferences but your logical conclusions extends the scope of the article...

"In The National Law Journal's first ranking of the law schools from which the 50 largest U.S. law firms hired first-year associates, those that topped the list not surprisingly featured some of the most prominent names in legal education.

Columbia Law School ranked No. 1, with 38% of its graduating class getting hired as a first-year associate at one of the top 50 firms, based on census information collected in the NLJ's annual survey of the nation's 250 largest law firms. Northwestern University School of Law and the University of Pennsylvania Law School were close behind with 37%.

Northwestern and Penn benefited from having a smaller graduating class, which boosted their standings, even though only 82 and 91 students, respectively, were hired from those schools. Harvard Law School had 166 graduates hired at top 50 firms, Georgetown University Law Center had 149, and New York University School of Law had 137.

The numbers of students hired at these firms were provided by the firms in this year's NLJ 250 survey, but the listing of top 50 firms is based on last year's survey, as the ranking of this year's NLJ 250 has not yet been finalized. (It will appear in the Nov. 14 issue.)

The list of schools appearing in our survey is strikingly similar-though in different order-to the list of the top 20 schools in an annual ranking done by U.S. News & World Report, a widely read law school ranking. The only two schools of our top 20 that do not appear in the U.S. News top 20 are University of Illinois College of Law, ranked No. 26 by U.S. News, and University of Notre Dame Law School, ranked No. 24. The schools in the U.S. News top 20 that did not make our list are those of University of Southern California, the University of Minnesota and George Washington University. (There are three because U.S. News had a tie for 20th place.)

It should also be noted that the rankings look at the numbers of hires from 2005, but compared to the number of students awarded J.D.s in 2004, provided by the American Bar Association. (The figures for 2005 were not readily available.)

The percentage of classes hired at the top firms quickly drops off after the top 20 schools, indicating that law firms have a fairly set list of schools that they hire from.

"We do not arbitrarily limit our incoming class to graduates from a set list of schools," said James Hough, the hiring partner at Morrison & Foerster. However, the firm does limit the schools at which it conducts on-campus interviews. Hough listed nine of the top law schools as core schools where the firm recruits.
Hough said that if a student is not at a top school where the firm interviews, "we generally learn about him or her from a letter or e-mail submission, or the recommendation of a friend or law professor." If a school isn't on the firm's list of where it recruits, candidates must have a "stellar academic performance."

Another factor in the rankings may be the school's location. Both Columbia and NYU graduates, for instance, were hired frequently at major New York firms."
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticlePrinterFriendlyNLJ.jsp?id=1126256708738

Thanks. Of course, I read the article before I wrote my reply. Of course there is a strong correlation b/w top schools and landing a good job. No doubt about it. I just think you cannot "rank" that. As I noted, there are so many flaws in such a "ranking" that for me it is a joke. I always praised the US Ranking but I can see many flaws there as well. Bottom line, I think the only realiable "ranking" is to look only at two columns of the US News Ranking: peer assessment and judges/partners assessment. In the end, you want to see how the market values your school. This will help you to get a job. I want to note again that ANY JD form Harvard,Yale or Stanford can get a job at a top 50 law firm. Please correct me if I am wrong.

As ANY lawyer from Harvard,Yale or Stanford who would get a job with any top 50 law firm would say......RETAINER :))

I'm an LLM student at Columbia focusing on International Law. A couple of comments about job opportunities in international law through Columbia from my experience this year. The office of Carrer services does not provide assistance for jobs in international organizations, NGOs, etc. The Public Interest Center offers mainly unpaid internships and pro bono opportunities, and a few very competitive fellowships in human rights. There were plenty of informational and networking events.

Paul,

Did someone at Columbia kill your dog? Eat your baby? Your vehemence is disconcerting. You don't go to the school, obviously don't ever plan to go there, so why are you even on this forum? Why do you care so much? Shouldn't you be studying for finals or something?

Everyone,

I've only been on this site since yesterday, and it is incredible to me how much of it is just straight up bitching (yes, that's a legal term). Is going to ANY top law school really that bad? As one other poster here might have remarked, lighten up, have a sense of humor, and perhaps pause a moment to feel thankful for the incredibly privileged life you are leading that allows you to come on this site and complain about how one of the best law schools in the country done you wrong.

In bemusement
kiany

You will learn at some point of your life to fight the arguments and not the person.

FYI, I declined Columbia albeit I think it is one of the best schools of the world. I never said it wasn´t. I have many, many friends who studied there and none of them are angry with my comments. Why are you? Cheers.

I think Paul has a point. Why should one not state his/her opinion about things which are not going particularly well? (i.e. this year's admission process).

However, as a current LLM at Columbia I can asure you that you will have the opportunity to attend many interesting courses. Nobody should be turned off just by some not important ladies in the administration. :-)

I'm sorry Paul, it's just people that go to Columbia and like it that you have a problem with:

"I noticed many "advertising" posts from Columbia students and, in my opinion, they are just lame."

Sounds kind of "personal" to me. Of course people should state their opinions if things aren't going well. I'm finishing a miserable 1L year made even more miserable by an utterly useless administration better at throwing cocktail parties than keeping students informed. But if by some miracle, people are happy here, and think it's a good school, why should they be called "lame" for saying so?

If you went out to dinner with someone, and they ordered a meal that they thought was delicious, and offered you a taste, would you call them "lame," even if you thought it wasn't all that good? Why not allow people who find something they think is good to be a little enthusiastic about it?

kiany

I am really sorry if you got offended by my post. It is really not personal.

My only point was that posts that say "We are #1", "We are #1 again", "We are the best" sound like advertising. Maybe they are not... If all current students start doing the same, can you imagine how this website will look like?

My "lame" comment was after I saw 5 posts saying that the "achievement" was not so true. To be honest, I think that if you send an email stating facts, you would better make sure they are true, otherwise it will be "lame".

BTW, I had no problems with my application or with the administration. They were quite nice actually.

Rokiany,

I really appreciate your comment (which btw is by far the worst opinion on CLS on this board).
Could I ask you why you believe that your year at CLS is so miserable?
Needless to say, I'm a bit interested considered that I'm gonna attend my LLM there....
Many tks.

I'm sorry Paul, it's just people that go to Columbia and like it that you have a problem with:

"I noticed many "advertising" posts from Columbia students and, in my opinion, they are just lame."

Sounds kind of "personal" to me. Of course people should state their opinions if things aren't going well. I'm finishing a miserable 1L year made even more miserable by an utterly useless administration better at throwing cocktail parties than keeping students informed. But if by some miracle, people are happy here, and think it's a good school, why should they be called "lame" for saying so?

If you went out to dinner with someone, and they ordered a meal that they thought was delicious, and offered you a taste, would you call them "lame," even if you thought it wasn't all that good? Why not allow people who find something they think is good to be a little enthusiastic about it?

kiany

Hey Acknow,
well, any horrible comments I have about CLS between now and May 12 should probably be taken with a grain of salt, since I am in the midst of finals and pretty cranky about it.

That said, I have found a lot of my experience here pretty frustrating. I have been out of school for a few years, and coming to law school was a fairly recent decision, i.e., not something I've been dreaming about my whole life. I'd never even met a lawyer or law student before arriving here.

So, I had no idea what a moot court was, what it meant to be on a journal, what a clerkship was or why it might be important, what interns do during the summers, what externs do during the school year, how people managed to live on a public-service salary and still pay off loans. (And before you roll your eyes and think "didn't she do her homework?" let me interject that I've spent the last several years living in a very remote part of the planet with no internet access and where it takes a month to get a letter from the U.S.) Everything I have learned about these subjects this year I have learned through word-of-mouth from other students. Also, I thought I was coming to Columbia to become a really good lawyer, but in fact it turns out that I am here to Think About The Law. Apparently, I will learn how to be a lawyer when/if I get a job at a law firm.

So in my experience, I have been very frustrated with the lack of information and clear communication from the administration (although from what I hear this is less of a problem with LLMs, maybe because they don't assume you know everything about an American law school in advance?). The staff at student services is, for the most part, very new here, due to some mysterious scandal last year allegedly involving embezzlement of school funds. When I went in to tell them that this lack of information was making my life rather stressful, and asked for some kind of brochure or something explaining important features of the law school and listing important deadlines, they suggested I see a counselor about my stress, and gave me NO information!

Alright, now the good side. Student Services has improved somewhat since that encounter early last semester, due in part to complaints of students, but also, I think, due to pressure from the (excellent) professors, who do care very much about your experience here. If you are at all interested in Public Interest work, which I haven't seen many people on this forum mention so far, the people at the Center for Public Interest Law are fantastic, and have helped me enormously both in finding the perfect job for the summer, and, at least in my case, picking up the slack for Student Services as concerns information about 1L year. Also, I have been truly amazed by the achievements of my classmates, the diversity of their experiences, and their energy and intelligence in the classroom. While I am sure this is much the same at other top schools, it is not something I experienced in undergraduate school, and it's been one of the best parts of my experience. Also, someone on one of these boards mentioned that Columbia is constantly holding colloquia and panels and talks on a variety of subjects. I've chatted with former presidents, people from every branch of the UN, a Supreme Court justice and any number of other fascinating people. It's simply an exciting place to be.

I should also say, I have a number of friends here who are LLMs from overseas, from Europe, Asia and Latin America, pursuing corporate tracks and public interest tracks, and I have never heard any complaints other than the typical law school frustration. On the whole, they seem far more relaxed and happy than the JD students.

Alright, I hope that rather long message was somewhat informative. I guess I would just say, don't worry too much. It will be fine, you will learn a lot and make some great friends and great connections here. I think I was one of the most stressed-out 1Ls here, and even I am able to appreciate what I've gained this year and where I think Columbia is taking me.

Back to the books now,
kiany

Paul,

OK, peace. :-) See my "exams make me cranky" comment above. Sigh.

kiany

Good luck with your finals!

Rokiany, thank you so much for having spent some time in describing your situation. I wish you all the best with your final!

I would like to state that law schools have nothing to do with jessup teams. Venezuela's team came in second and they're not even english native speakers, and you do not hear about their law school, you probably don't even know which law schools are in Venezuela. And not to mention this is the 4th time in ten years that Venezuela's team is in the Jessup final round (1997, 2000, 2001 and 2006).

Jessup only takes the will and dedication of the team members, and sometimes the help of some faculty members.