Chicago or Columbia?


Isthatso

Yes, but what about the chances of finding a job? would you say Columbia grad students have a better chance?

Yes, but what about the chances of finding a job? would you say Columbia grad students have a better chance?
quote
App2009

I would definitely recommend Chicago. Chicago's faculty is full of big names, Posner, Nussbaum, and all the famous law and economics people.

Columbia has no big names like Chicago. plus, their program is much bigger and less selective. At Chicago, the small class size is great since you get one on one faculty attention.

Congrats on Chicago! I wish i was in your situation...


I don't agree that CLS is less selective than Chicago. CLS offers admission to 15,9% of its applicants and Chicago to 16,2%. But at the end of the day both CLS and Chicago are exceptional universities.

<blockquote>I would definitely recommend Chicago. Chicago's faculty is full of big names, Posner, Nussbaum, and all the famous law and economics people.

Columbia has no big names like Chicago. plus, their program is much bigger and less selective. At Chicago, the small class size is great since you get one on one faculty attention.

Congrats on Chicago! I wish i was in your situation...</blockquote>

I don't agree that CLS is less selective than Chicago. CLS offers admission to 15,9% of its applicants and Chicago to 16,2%. But at the end of the day both CLS and Chicago are exceptional universities.
quote
1115

After some research, it is almost sure that I will choose Chicago.

Hope to see you there guys!

After some research, it is almost sure that I will choose Chicago.

Hope to see you there guys!
quote
Jenny1980

I would definitely recommend Chicago. Chicago's faculty is full of big names, Posner, Nussbaum, and all the famous law and economics people.

Columbia has no big names like Chicago. plus, their program is much bigger and less selective. At Chicago, the small class size is great since you get one on one faculty attention.



Agree with you. Chicago has a better faculty, but I believe that CLS is more famous.

<blockquote>I would definitely recommend Chicago. Chicago's faculty is full of big names, Posner, Nussbaum, and all the famous law and economics people.

Columbia has no big names like Chicago. plus, their program is much bigger and less selective. At Chicago, the small class size is great since you get one on one faculty attention. <blockquote>


Agree with you. Chicago has a better faculty, but I believe that CLS is more famous.
quote
posner

Guess which one I'm gonna recommend;-)

Guess which one I'm gonna recommend;-)
quote
Jenny1980

Guess which one I'm gonna recommend;-)


Mmmmm, Columbia? No, I'm joking.

Could you share with us why do you prefer Chicago and if you are a an alumni, current student etc. ? (if your name is Eric or Richard, no explanation is needed)

Thanks!

<blockquote>Guess which one I'm gonna recommend;-)</blockquote>

Mmmmm, Columbia? No, I'm joking.

Could you share with us why do you prefer Chicago and if you are a an alumni, current student etc. ? (if your name is Eric or Richard, no explanation is needed)

Thanks!
quote
1115

I have to decide between Columbia and Chicago this week.

Lawyers and MBAs usually recommend Chicago, but I still have some doubts.

Any advice?

I have to decide between Columbia and Chicago this week.

Lawyers and MBAs usually recommend Chicago, but I still have some doubts.

Any advice?
quote

Well....I would say that Chicago is more selective and has got more top faculty in the L Economics field. If i were in your position. I d pick chicago.......

Well....I would say that Chicago is more selective and has got more top faculty in the L Economics field. If i were in your position. I d pick chicago.......
quote
wolla

I'm in the same position.

I have talked to a few of my friends who are currently working at top law firms in New York and they all agree that if you go for job opportunities at BigLaw within the area of corporate finance/M&A, Columbia is the place to go! (however, chances are generally very slim at the momemnt, irrespective of which school you attend). This is also very much in line with this ranking of job placement at "elite" law firms: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

On my list the pros and cons are the following:

Pros - Chicago:
- Small program (everyone will know everyone)
- Very well regarded school within the US
- Appears to have a very "active" and caring LL.M. staff (e.g. dean Badger's emails)

Cons - Chicago:
- BigLaw job placement is more difficult than Columbia (if there even is a chance at all at the moment)
- Not as well regarded as Columbia outside the US


Pros - Columbia:
- Better chance (if any) at BigLaw job placement
- Has a better name than Chicago outside the US
- Situated in New York (Chicago is also a great city, but New York is New York!)

Cons - Columbia
- Bigger program (one could fear that the LL.M.'s will be "just" as "ordinary" J.D. - e.g. there will not be a greater sense of unity among the LL.M. etc.)
- Situated in New York - probably the most expensive city in the world!

I'm leaning towards Columbia, primarely because that (i) it is the best of the two schools in regard to corporate finance, M&A, and securities regulation (with professors like Coffee - by the way saying that Columbia has no "famous" professors is pure nonsense in my opinion), (ii) due to the better chance (if any) of a job at BigLaw afterwards, and (iii) for the sake of my resume (Columbia is just better regarded outside the US).

However, I have far from made up my mind yet and I can not ignore the potential (social) benefits of Chicago's smaller program. It almost feels like I change my opinion every other day....lol :)

I'm in the same position.

I have talked to a few of my friends who are currently working at top law firms in New York and they all agree that if you go for job opportunities at BigLaw within the area of corporate finance/M&A, Columbia is the place to go! (however, chances are generally very slim at the momemnt, irrespective of which school you attend). This is also very much in line with this ranking of job placement at "elite" law firms: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

On my list the pros and cons are the following:

Pros - Chicago:
- Small program (everyone will know everyone)
- Very well regarded school within the US
- Appears to have a very "active" and caring LL.M. staff (e.g. dean Badger's emails)

Cons - Chicago:
- BigLaw job placement is more difficult than Columbia (if there even is a chance at all at the moment)
- Not as well regarded as Columbia outside the US


Pros - Columbia:
- Better chance (if any) at BigLaw job placement
- Has a better name than Chicago outside the US
- Situated in New York (Chicago is also a great city, but New York is New York!)

Cons - Columbia
- Bigger program (one could fear that the LL.M.'s will be "just" as "ordinary" J.D. - e.g. there will not be a greater sense of unity among the LL.M. etc.)
- Situated in New York - probably the most expensive city in the world!

I'm leaning towards Columbia, primarely because that (i) it is the best of the two schools in regard to corporate finance, M&A, and securities regulation (with professors like Coffee - by the way saying that Columbia has no "famous" professors is pure nonsense in my opinion), (ii) due to the better chance (if any) of a job at BigLaw afterwards, and (iii) for the sake of my resume (Columbia is just better regarded outside the US).

However, I have far from made up my mind yet and I can not ignore the potential (social) benefits of Chicago's smaller program. It almost feels like I change my opinion every other day....lol :)
quote
mnementh

It depends. If you're looking for a job/prestige issue, then it's all about the ranking and you should choose CLS. It's best to choose the better ranked school. If you're interested in the economics school of thought of Chicago, and have other reasons like financial incentives or intend to return home anyway, then go for Chicago.

It depends. If you're looking for a job/prestige issue, then it's all about the ranking and you should choose CLS. It's best to choose the better ranked school. If you're interested in the economics school of thought of Chicago, and have other reasons like financial incentives or intend to return home anyway, then go for Chicago.
quote
TwelfthMon...

I'm in the same position.

I have talked to a few of my friends who are currently working at top law firms in New York and they all agree that if you go for job opportunities at BigLaw within the area of corporate finance/M&A, Columbia is the place to go! (however, chances are generally very slim at the momemnt, irrespective of which school you attend). This is also very much in line with this ranking of job placement at "elite" law firms: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

On my list the pros and cons are the following:

Pros - Chicago:
- Small program (everyone will know everyone)
- Very well regarded school within the US
- Appears to have a very "active" and caring LL.M. staff (e.g. dean Badger's emails)

Cons - Chicago:
- BigLaw job placement is more difficult than Columbia (if there even is a chance at all at the moment)
- Not as well regarded as Columbia outside the US


Pros - Columbia:
- Better chance (if any) at BigLaw job placement
- Has a better name than Chicago outside the US
- Situated in New York (Chicago is also a great city, but New York is New York!)

Cons - Columbia
- Bigger program (one could fear that the LL.M.'s will be "just" as "ordinary" J.D. - e.g. there will not be a greater sense of unity among the LL.M. etc.)
- Situated in New York - probably the most expensive city in the world!

I'm leaning towards Columbia, primarely because that (i) it is the best of the two schools in regard to corporate finance, M&A, and securities regulation (with professors like Coffee - by the way saying that Columbia has no "famous" professors is pure nonsense in my opinion), (ii) due to the better chance (if any) of a job at BigLaw afterwards, and (iii) for the sake of my resume (Columbia is just better regarded outside the US).

However, I have far from made up my mind yet and I can not ignore the potential (social) benefits of Chicago's smaller program. It almost feels like I change my opinion every other day....lol :)



Agree with every single word. Same situation, same dilemma, although it's pretty clear to me by now that I'll choose CLS. I'm quite surprised by the extent to which Chicago is advertised on this board, though! Makes you almost forget that generally speaking attending Columbia Law School should be every lawyer's wet dream, and I wouldn't even care if Homer Simpson were be the dean right now.

<blockquote>I'm in the same position.

I have talked to a few of my friends who are currently working at top law firms in New York and they all agree that if you go for job opportunities at BigLaw within the area of corporate finance/M&A, Columbia is the place to go! (however, chances are generally very slim at the momemnt, irrespective of which school you attend). This is also very much in line with this ranking of job placement at "elite" law firms: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

On my list the pros and cons are the following:

Pros - Chicago:
- Small program (everyone will know everyone)
- Very well regarded school within the US
- Appears to have a very "active" and caring LL.M. staff (e.g. dean Badger's emails)

Cons - Chicago:
- BigLaw job placement is more difficult than Columbia (if there even is a chance at all at the moment)
- Not as well regarded as Columbia outside the US


Pros - Columbia:
- Better chance (if any) at BigLaw job placement
- Has a better name than Chicago outside the US
- Situated in New York (Chicago is also a great city, but New York is New York!)

Cons - Columbia
- Bigger program (one could fear that the LL.M.'s will be "just" as "ordinary" J.D. - e.g. there will not be a greater sense of unity among the LL.M. etc.)
- Situated in New York - probably the most expensive city in the world!

I'm leaning towards Columbia, primarely because that (i) it is the best of the two schools in regard to corporate finance, M&A, and securities regulation (with professors like Coffee - by the way saying that Columbia has no "famous" professors is pure nonsense in my opinion), (ii) due to the better chance (if any) of a job at BigLaw afterwards, and (iii) for the sake of my resume (Columbia is just better regarded outside the US).

However, I have far from made up my mind yet and I can not ignore the potential (social) benefits of Chicago's smaller program. It almost feels like I change my opinion every other day....lol :)</blockquote>


Agree with every single word. Same situation, same dilemma, although it's pretty clear to me by now that I'll choose CLS. I'm quite surprised by the extent to which Chicago is advertised on this board, though! Makes you almost forget that generally speaking attending Columbia Law School should be every lawyer's wet dream, and I wouldn't even care if Homer Simpson were be the dean right now.
quote
grugani

Well, call me a wacko then, 'cause I'm leaving both behind to attend Berkeley... I'm tired of sleepless nights worrying myself about where to go. CLS, Chicago, Penn, NYU, Northwestern, Michigan, Virginia, etc... all of them are great schools. I suggest you get the one which makes you happier from a personal perspective...

Well, call me a wacko then, 'cause I'm leaving both behind to attend Berkeley... I'm tired of sleepless nights worrying myself about where to go. CLS, Chicago, Penn, NYU, Northwestern, Michigan, Virginia, etc... all of them are great schools. I suggest you get the one which makes you happier from a personal perspective...
quote
natassja

I have talk with some Brazilians lawyers and I could conclude that the lawyers that are more informed about US law schools (lawyers that are part time professors or that study in US) said that Chicago has more prestige in Brazil, whereas lawyers that are less informed (and I believe that most Brazilians lawyers are uninformed about this issue) said that CLS has more prestige.

It happened almost the same when I ask that same question to other professionals that work in a bank: The ones that were more informed about American universities said that Chicago, but the rest said Columbia (and a couple said NYU)

My problem is that I dont want to return to my current job, so for me it is very important to attend a well known law school here in Brazil.

Still have one week to decide.

I have talk with some Brazilians lawyers and I could conclude that the lawyers that are more informed about US law schools (lawyers that are part time professors or that study in US) said that Chicago has more prestige in Brazil, whereas lawyers that are less informed (and I believe that most Brazilians lawyers are uninformed about this issue) said that CLS has more prestige.

It happened almost the same when I ask that same question to other professionals that work in a bank: The ones that were more informed about American universities said that Chicago, but the rest said Columbia (and a couple said NYU)

My problem is that I don’t want to return to my current job, so for me it is very important to attend a well –known law school here in Brazil.

Still have one week to decide.
quote
posner

Until this moment, I will attend Chicago (still waiting Berkeley and HLS).

In this time (financial crisis!), I think that one should set appart from others, and I think that small programs in good law schools (Chicago, Yale, SLS) help you more than the one from big law schools (Harvard, NYU, Columbia).

Anyone else that have chose Chicago over CLS?


you have chosen wisely.

<blockquote>Until this moment, I will attend Chicago (still waiting Berkeley and HLS).

In this time (financial crisis!), I think that one should set appart from others, and I think that small programs in good law schools (Chicago, Yale, SLS) help you more than the one from big law schools (Harvard, NYU, Columbia).

Anyone else that have chose Chicago over CLS?
</blockquote>

you have chosen wisely.
quote
Jenny1980

Well, call me a wacko then, 'cause I'm leaving both behind to attend Berkeley... I'm tired of sleepless nights worrying myself about where to go. CLS, Chicago, Penn, NYU, Northwestern, Michigan, Virginia, etc... all of them are great schools. I suggest you get the one which makes you happier from a personal perspective...


I dont think that youre a wacko! I think that, besides Yale and maybe Stanford, all top law school (Harvard, Chicago, Berkeley etc.) have the same academic level, so, you have to choose the one that will make you happier.

I am between Columbia, Berkeley and Chicago as well, so I am taking in account the city (one point for Columbia), the campus and wheatear (one point for Berkeley) and the size of the law school (one point for Chicago) Dont know what to choose!

By the way, I read that Dean Badger will go to your country. You should attend the meeting and talk him. That will help you in order to take your decision!

<blockquote>Well, call me a wacko then, 'cause I'm leaving both behind to attend Berkeley... I'm tired of sleepless nights worrying myself about where to go. CLS, Chicago, Penn, NYU, Northwestern, Michigan, Virginia, etc... all of them are great schools. I suggest you get the one which makes you happier from a personal perspective...</blockquote>

I don’t think that you’re a wacko! I think that, besides Yale and maybe Stanford, all top law school (Harvard, Chicago, Berkeley etc.) have the same academic level, so, you have to choose the one that will make you happier.

I am between Columbia, Berkeley and Chicago as well, so I am taking in account the city (one point for Columbia), the campus and wheatear (one point for Berkeley) and the size of the law school (one point for Chicago) Don’t know what to choose!

By the way, I read that Dean Badger will go to your country. You should attend the meeting and talk him. That will help you in order to take your decision!
quote
grugani

C'mon Jenny! Let's go to Berkeley! I'm almost done with my choice and I don't want to meet with Dean Badger and mess it all again! lol

C'mon Jenny! Let's go to Berkeley! I'm almost done with my choice and I don't want to meet with Dean Badger and mess it all again! lol
quote
wolla

Just spent a few hours looking into the number of LL.M.'s employed by the "top 15 law firms" (as listed here: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml) - either by searching the respective homepages of the firms and/or using google.

Following this rather "unscientific" approach, it appears that Columbia LL.M's hold far more positions at the top law firms than Chicago LL.M.'s - and this difference is quite significant even when taking the 4:1 ratio into account (200 Columbia LL.M's per year vs. 50 Chicago LL.M's). The only exception appears to be Kirkland & Ellis (which is based in Chicago).

But then again, in the current financial climate it may not matter at all....

Just spent a few hours looking into the number of LL.M.'s employed by the "top 15 law firms" (as listed here: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml) - either by searching the respective homepages of the firms and/or using google.

Following this rather "unscientific" approach, it appears that Columbia LL.M's hold far more positions at the top law firms than Chicago LL.M.'s - and this difference is quite significant even when taking the 4:1 ratio into account (200 Columbia LL.M's per year vs. 50 Chicago LL.M's). The only exception appears to be Kirkland & Ellis (which is based in Chicago).

But then again, in the current financial climate it may not matter at all....
quote
natassja

Hi Wolla! A few notes:

1. I read the ranking that you mentioned about law firm placement. CLS is in the #1 and Chicago #2, but it is stated that LLM and other degrees beyond the JD were excluded.

2. The US New ranking states that Chicago has more employed alumni nine months after graduation than Columbia.

3. Completely agree with you that in the current financial climate it may not matter at all, since it is very hard to find a job, we should look rankings that really matter (like the ones about faculty quality http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2008aaasmembership.shtml or http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2008faculty_impact.shtml).

4. In my opinion, Columbia and Chicago are at the same level (above NYU and Berkeley and under Harvard and Yale), so the decision should be taken taking into account other factors like the city, size of the program, field of interest, cost, future degrees that you may want to pursue in US etc.

I still have 2 more days to decide. In the bank in which I work, people are divided.

N.

Hi Wolla! A few notes:

1. I read the ranking that you mentioned about law firm placement. CLS is in the #1 and Chicago #2, but it is stated that “LLM and other degrees beyond the JD were excluded”.

2. The US New ranking states that Chicago has more employed alumni nine months after graduation than Columbia.

3. Completely agree with you that in the current financial climate it may not matter at all”, since it is very hard to find a job, we should look rankings that really matter (like the ones about faculty quality http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2008aaasmembership.shtml or http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2008faculty_impact.shtml).

4. In my opinion, Columbia and Chicago are at the same level (above NYU and Berkeley and under Harvard and Yale), so the decision should be taken taking into account other factors like the city, size of the program, field of interest, cost, future degrees that you may want to pursue in US etc.

I still have 2 more days to decide. In the bank in which I work, people are divided.

N.
quote

hi natassja....I think rankings of the top 5 Law school in the US are useful but what really matters are your plans and future. I agree that the crisis changes everything in the next year. However I would make my decision based also on the reputation of the Legal world in your own country. If they think an llm from Chicago for the faculties, selection is worthy ...then you should take that way.....

hi natassja....I think rankings of the top 5 Law school in the US are useful but what really matters are your plans and future. I agree that the crisis changes everything in the next year. However I would make my decision based also on the reputation of the Legal world in your own country. If they think an llm from Chicago for the faculties, selection is worthy ...then you should take that way.....
quote
wolla

Hi Wolla! A few notes:

1. I read the ranking that you mentioned about law firm placement. CLS is in the #1 and Chicago #2, but it is stated that LLM and other degrees beyond the JD were excluded.

2. The US New ranking states that Chicago has more employed alumni nine months after graduation than Columbia.

3. Completely agree with you that in the current financial climate it may not matter at all, since it is very hard to find a job, we should look rankings that really matter (like the ones about faculty quality http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2008aaasmembership.shtml or http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2008faculty_impact.shtml).

4. In my opinion, Columbia and Chicago are at the same level (above NYU and Berkeley and under Harvard and Yale), so the decision should be taken taking into account other factors like the city, size of the program, field of interest, cost, future degrees that you may want to pursue in US etc.

I still have 2 more days to decide. In the bank in which I work, people are divided.

N.


Natasja, I think you have misunderstood my post. I was referring to the top 15 law firms mentioned in the Leiter-ranking and not the ranking itself (I am well aware that it does not include LL.M.'s).

I then searched the websites of the mentioned law firms (and/or using google) and looked at how many LL.M.'s from either Columbia or Chicago were employed at any of the law firms' US offices.

I may have missed a few employees/LL.M.'s but the trend was quite clear; the Columbia LL.M.'s outnumbered the Chicago LL.M.'s far beyond the 4:1 ratio, however, with the exception of Kirkland & Ellis (which is based in Chicago).

Finally, when you read the various Leiter-rankings, please do remember that Brian Leiter is currently employed at Chicago... (not saying he is biased, just that people should be aware of this)

<blockquote>Hi Wolla! A few notes:

1. I read the ranking that you mentioned about law firm placement. CLS is in the #1 and Chicago #2, but it is stated that “LLM and other degrees beyond the JD were excluded”.

2. The US New ranking states that Chicago has more employed alumni nine months after graduation than Columbia.

3. Completely agree with you that in the current financial climate it may not matter at all”, since it is very hard to find a job, we should look rankings that really matter (like the ones about faculty quality http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2008aaasmembership.shtml or http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2008faculty_impact.shtml).

4. In my opinion, Columbia and Chicago are at the same level (above NYU and Berkeley and under Harvard and Yale), so the decision should be taken taking into account other factors like the city, size of the program, field of interest, cost, future degrees that you may want to pursue in US etc.

I still have 2 more days to decide. In the bank in which I work, people are divided.

N.
</blockquote>

Natasja, I think you have misunderstood my post. I was referring to the top 15 law firms mentioned in the Leiter-ranking and not the ranking itself (I am well aware that it does not include LL.M.'s).

I then searched the websites of the mentioned law firms (and/or using google) and looked at how many LL.M.'s from either Columbia or Chicago were employed at any of the law firms' US offices.

I may have missed a few employees/LL.M.'s but the trend was quite clear; the Columbia LL.M.'s outnumbered the Chicago LL.M.'s far beyond the 4:1 ratio, however, with the exception of Kirkland & Ellis (which is based in Chicago).

Finally, when you read the various Leiter-rankings, please do remember that Brian Leiter is currently employed at Chicago... (not saying he is biased, just that people should be aware of this)
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