Academic Employment Post-LLM


jusme

Okay, well we seem to hear a lot on here about employability in firms after an LLM, but very few people seem to discuss academic jobs. Has anyone had any experience with seeking academic employment at the end of an LLM?

Also, does anyone have any advice on what to do during your LLM to increase your chances? I will have my undergraduate degree, a law degree, an MA, an LLM and a PhD (in Law) when I finish at CLS (I accepted their offer) and I will be 25. I have 2 years of teaching experience at 2 universities in Australia (the place with the kangaroos!) and several publications.

Any advice or details of experiences would be appreciated!

Okay, well we seem to hear a lot on here about employability in firms after an LLM, but very few people seem to discuss academic jobs. Has anyone had any experience with seeking academic employment at the end of an LLM?

Also, does anyone have any advice on what to do during your LLM to increase your chances? I will have my undergraduate degree, a law degree, an MA, an LLM and a PhD (in Law) when I finish at CLS (I accepted their offer) and I will be 25. I have 2 years of teaching experience at 2 universities in Australia (the place with the kangaroos!) and several publications.

Any advice or details of experiences would be appreciated!
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equity's d...

ungerdrad (4 years), Ma (one year), law (3 years), LLm (1 year), PHD (2 years)=11, minus 25, =14.

Math was never my strong point, but did you graduate high school at 14??

In all seriousness, focus on the publications and, with these other credentials, you will be able to teach anywhere I should think.


ungerdrad (4 years), Ma (one year), law (3 years), LLm (1 year), PHD (2 years)=11, minus 25, =14.

Math was never my strong point, but did you graduate high school at 14??

In all seriousness, focus on the publications and, with these other credentials, you will be able to teach anywhere I should think.
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Aurelius

woops, my mistake :)

woops, my mistake :)
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jusme

I was 15 in my final year of school, when I also took some Uni courses to get a head start. I was the resident freak at school, so graduating early was a great strategy for avoiding spending days at a time hanging by my undies off locker room doors! Your math is sound...

Do you think an SJD or JSD is necessary for foreigners to teach or is the field of law in the US pretty difficult to get into anyway?

I was 15 in my final year of school, when I also took some Uni courses to get a head start. I was the resident freak at school, so graduating early was a great strategy for avoiding spending days at a time hanging by my undies off locker room doors! Your math is sound...

Do you think an SJD or JSD is necessary for foreigners to teach or is the field of law in the US pretty difficult to get into anyway?
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equity's d...

I don't quite follow. JSD is simply the American term for a PHD in law, so is your question: do i need an american doctorate to teach in the US (which you will have because you are going to Columbia, right??).
Well, the answer is an emphatic NO. A PHD anywhere is acceptable, as a general proposition; although obviously one that focusses on american jurisprudence (which is most likely, though not neccessarily, earned in the US) will probably provide you with the greatest prospects for finding employment as you will be able to teach the basic first year UScarrculum; wheras if you focus on, say, UK or EU or international law, then you will have to wait for a specific opening in a US institution in those fileds of which there are fewer..

I don't quite follow. JSD is simply the American term for a PHD in law, so is your question: do i need an american doctorate to teach in the US (which you will have because you are going to Columbia, right??).
Well, the answer is an emphatic NO. A PHD anywhere is acceptable, as a general proposition; although obviously one that focusses on american jurisprudence (which is most likely, though not neccessarily, earned in the US) will probably provide you with the greatest prospects for finding employment as you will be able to teach the basic first year UScarrculum; wheras if you focus on, say, UK or EU or international law, then you will have to wait for a specific opening in a US institution in those fileds of which there are fewer..
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jusme

My understanding is that there is a preference for US scholars at US schools. A professor of mine here in Australia had the opinion that it would not be easy to break the US academic market without a US degree... thus I am heading off to Columbia for an LLM (that isn't the only reason btw). That's the reason that I asked regarding SDJs.

As to the initial post, I am more concerned with people's experiences in this regard... Has anyone done the academic job fair in DC as an LLM student? Was it worth the fee? Has anyone here applied to schools after an LLM? Was it difficult to find work? What did the schools focus on in interviews that I could focus on during my LLM year?

I am sure that there are more LLM-ers on here not looking for firm employment and I am sure that this info would be great to guide us as to what to expect and what to make sure we do!

My understanding is that there is a preference for US scholars at US schools. A professor of mine here in Australia had the opinion that it would not be easy to break the US academic market without a US degree... thus I am heading off to Columbia for an LLM (that isn't the only reason btw). That's the reason that I asked regarding SDJs.

As to the initial post, I am more concerned with people's experiences in this regard... Has anyone done the academic job fair in DC as an LLM student? Was it worth the fee? Has anyone here applied to schools after an LLM? Was it difficult to find work? What did the schools focus on in interviews that I could focus on during my LLM year?

I am sure that there are more LLM-ers on here not looking for firm employment and I am sure that this info would be great to guide us as to what to expect and what to make sure we do!
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richardcjy

Generally I would say it's extremely difficult to get a faculty position after LLM in the US. Even most SJDs go back to teach in their home country to my understanding.

But your case is quite special. So it might be different to other LLMs. First you are a native English speaker (from Aussie), this would definitely help. And you are a PhD already, that makes you qualified. It seems that you have teaching experience and publications, they are promising.

I know some scholars who never have any US education experience earned faculty position and tenure in US Law Schools (Prof. Joost Pauwelyn at Duke Law is an example). Maybe you could try to discuss this with your Professors at CLS for more details about US academias.

You are so overqualified for this LLM by the way:)

Generally I would say it's extremely difficult to get a faculty position after LLM in the US. Even most SJDs go back to teach in their home country to my understanding.

But your case is quite special. So it might be different to other LLMs. First you are a native English speaker (from Aussie), this would definitely help. And you are a PhD already, that makes you qualified. It seems that you have teaching experience and publications, they are promising.

I know some scholars who never have any US education experience earned faculty position and tenure in US Law Schools (Prof. Joost Pauwelyn at Duke Law is an example). Maybe you could try to discuss this with your Professors at CLS for more details about US academias.

You are so overqualified for this LLM by the way:)
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Mila

My general impression is that if you want to teach in the US, the best thing to do is to get a JD. A PhD in a non-law subject might help. With a LL.M. and a foreign law degree -even a foreign doctorate- it will be really hard to enter US academia, at least at the good law schools. Pursuing a SJD degree might help you to make up for the lack of US education and seems the best bet for foreigners to teach in the US- although it might still be hard. US students will not pursue a SJD- it is a degree for foreigners really. If US students want a career in academia they are generally advised to do a PhD in another field -in addition to their JD.
But these are just my general impressions- from my live as an LL.M. at HLS and an applicant to both Oxford DPhil and Harvard SJD. But of course there are notable exceptions to every rule. In the end, it will all depend on your publications. But what are considered to be the 'top journals' here in the US are the US law reviews- and it seems really hard to publish in them without a good US law background. Not many LL.M.s manage to publish in the best law reviews- some SJD's do.

My general impression is that if you want to teach in the US, the best thing to do is to get a JD. A PhD in a non-law subject might help. With a LL.M. and a foreign law degree -even a foreign doctorate- it will be really hard to enter US academia, at least at the good law schools. Pursuing a SJD degree might help you to ‘make up’ for the lack of US education and seems the best bet for foreigners to teach in the US- although it might still be hard. US students will not pursue a SJD- it is a degree for foreigners really. If US students want a career in academia they are generally advised to do a PhD in another field -in addition to their JD.
But these are just my general impressions- from my live as an LL.M. at HLS and an applicant to both Oxford DPhil and Harvard SJD. But of course there are notable exceptions to every rule. In the end, it will all depend on your publications. But what are considered to be the 'top journals' here in the US are the US law reviews- and it seems really hard to publish in them without a good US law background. Not many LL.M.s manage to publish in the best law reviews- some SJD's do.
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josepidal

Generally I would say it's extremely difficult to get a faculty position after LLM in the US. Even most SJDs go back to teach in their home country to my understanding.

LLMs have the disadvantage of not being able to try for law review and not being able to clerk.

<blockquote>Generally I would say it's extremely difficult to get a faculty position after LLM in the US. Even most SJDs go back to teach in their home country to my understanding.</blockquote>
LLMs have the disadvantage of not being able to try for law review and not being able to clerk.
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jusme

thanks for the advice everyone who's posted... its much appreciated! Some material for my consideration!

thanks for the advice everyone who's posted... its much appreciated! Some material for my consideration!
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fg

If you are going to be at Columbia I recommend working extremely hard, getting in with one important member of the faculty and then shooting for the Associate-in-Law program which is a program whereby Columbia does almost everything in its power to get you a job in the teaching market.
I also know foreigners who have done the SJD at NYU who have found jobs in the US.
All that being said, I'd say it is extremely hard to get an academic job with only an LLM if you are foreign. A JSD/SJD would help some simply because it would give you an opportunity to research/write an article.
I would recommend specializing in some sort of corporate law as that seems to be the area where most professors are needed (avoid international law if you can unless you can give it a private law slant). One of my friends at Columbia did an LLM there, then went into practice for 5 years, and then went back to Columbia for her JSD. She got a bunch of offers from US schools.
Sorry for the rambling thoughts.

If you are going to be at Columbia I recommend working extremely hard, getting in with one important member of the faculty and then shooting for the Associate-in-Law program which is a program whereby Columbia does almost everything in its power to get you a job in the teaching market.
I also know foreigners who have done the SJD at NYU who have found jobs in the US.
All that being said, I'd say it is extremely hard to get an academic job with only an LLM if you are foreign. A JSD/SJD would help some simply because it would give you an opportunity to research/write an article.
I would recommend specializing in some sort of corporate law as that seems to be the area where most professors are needed (avoid international law if you can unless you can give it a private law slant). One of my friends at Columbia did an LLM there, then went into practice for 5 years, and then went back to Columbia for her JSD. She got a bunch of offers from US schools.
Sorry for the rambling thoughts.
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black

Yale and Stanford offer master programs suiting very well people aiming at becoming professors (it is called SPILS at Stanford, I guess just LLM at Yale). After these two master level programs, people do a JSD. I know at least one former JSD from Stanford who got hired as permanent law professor in the U.S. So the route is not impossible. My understanding is that U.S. law professors have a JD plus a PhD in another field (not a JSD). I guess if you picked already Columbia, you should seek advice from the faculty there. Try to figure whether past Columbia JSD made it. I guess googling law professors in the US, with keywords such as "JSD/SJD" (since US professors do not seem to complete JSD) and one nationality adjective (Australian, Canadian, German whatever) may also help you determine whether some were foreign, since all professors post online their resumes. Good luck.

Yale and Stanford offer master programs suiting very well people aiming at becoming professors (it is called SPILS at Stanford, I guess just LLM at Yale). After these two master level programs, people do a JSD. I know at least one former JSD from Stanford who got hired as permanent law professor in the U.S. So the route is not impossible. My understanding is that U.S. law professors have a JD plus a PhD in another field (not a JSD). I guess if you picked already Columbia, you should seek advice from the faculty there. Try to figure whether past Columbia JSD made it. I guess googling law professors in the US, with keywords such as "JSD/SJD" (since US professors do not seem to complete JSD) and one nationality adjective (Australian, Canadian, German whatever) may also help you determine whether some were foreign, since all professors post online their resumes. Good luck.
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jusme

Thanks Black. Will have a look right now! Have any internationals on here had any success as Black suggests? is there anyone having done, or doing, a jsd who could provide some advice on what they have gotten from the degree. are there scholarships, teaching assistantships etc? also, has anyone tried transferring from an LLM to a JD if the JD/PhD is the expected pathway for professors?

Thanks Black. Will have a look right now! Have any internationals on here had any success as Black suggests? is there anyone having done, or doing, a jsd who could provide some advice on what they have gotten from the degree. are there scholarships, teaching assistantships etc? also, has anyone tried transferring from an LLM to a JD if the JD/PhD is the expected pathway for professors?
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fg

LIke I said, the Associateship programme (which has a bunch of LLM and JSD Candidates) at Columbia churns out people for the academic market every year as does the Columbia JSD programme. I know someone from Columbia JSD has gone to work at Seton Hall, SMU and there have been offers from Arizona etc. I am not sure how far a JD would get you since at this stage it might just distract from your time getting together publications.
I recommend speaking to Kathy Franke (head of the JSD program) once you get to Columbia about your options or Carol Sanger and Mike Dorf who organize teaching placements.

LIke I said, the Associateship programme (which has a bunch of LLM and JSD Candidates) at Columbia churns out people for the academic market every year as does the Columbia JSD programme. I know someone from Columbia JSD has gone to work at Seton Hall, SMU and there have been offers from Arizona etc. I am not sure how far a JD would get you since at this stage it might just distract from your time getting together publications.
I recommend speaking to Kathy Franke (head of the JSD program) once you get to Columbia about your options or Carol Sanger and Mike Dorf who organize teaching placements.
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equity's d...

Flygirl, I'm curious why you aren't doing the associateship programme at CLS?
Also, you say that some JSD candidates are doingthe associateship at the same time. I didn't realize that that was possble. Can you explain what the associateship programme is? Specifically, could I go there after LLM at Cambridge, do the associateship programme, and then teach, or does one usually roll from the associteship programme into the JSD/PHD??
In other words, when the faculty does everything in its power to get you a teaching placement, does that go for LLM's , or for JSD's? Soory for the sloppy prose, just busy at work...

Flygirl, I'm curious why you aren't doing the associateship programme at CLS?
Also, you say that some JSD candidates are doingthe associateship at the same time. I didn't realize that that was possble. Can you explain what the associateship programme is? Specifically, could I go there after LLM at Cambridge, do the associateship programme, and then teach, or does one usually roll from the associteship programme into the JSD/PHD??
In other words, when the faculty does everything in its power to get you a teaching placement, does that go for LLM's , or for JSD's? Soory for the sloppy prose, just busy at work...
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fg

I didn't apply because I was already at CLS when I heard about it and in any event didn't want to do my JSD in the US or teach in the US. But most people in that programme are either doing LLMs or JSDs and some are Americans who are non-degree. I think CLS helps them all. I imagine you could also go there after a UK degree and do a doctorate. There are a bunch of Canadians on the program already and I think they often go back to Canada to teach. Anyway, it is a really great program but quite competitive to get into. Definitely worth a shot though! Here's the link:
http://www.law.columbia.edu/llm_jsd/assoc

I didn't apply because I was already at CLS when I heard about it and in any event didn't want to do my JSD in the US or teach in the US. But most people in that programme are either doing LLMs or JSDs and some are Americans who are non-degree. I think CLS helps them all. I imagine you could also go there after a UK degree and do a doctorate. There are a bunch of Canadians on the program already and I think they often go back to Canada to teach. Anyway, it is a really great program but quite competitive to get into. Definitely worth a shot though! Here's the link:
http://www.law.columbia.edu/llm_jsd/assoc
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