Times Good University Guide 2011 Rankings


Panthro

Most people take more notice of The Times' rankings than any other list. This years' rankings are out now so I've listed them below, both overall and for law. Obviously the law school rankings are relevant but I've included the overall rankings, despite a few not possessing law school, just for people to get a more informed view of the reputation each university. Note that Queen Mary ranks very highly in the law school rankings largely through its student satisfaction result. Its overall ranking is 36.

Overall Rankings

1. Oxford
2. Cambridge
3. Imperial
4. St. Andrews
5. LSE
6. Durham
7. UCL
8. Warwick
9. York
10. Lancaster
11. Edinburgh
12. Exeter
13. Bath
14. Bristol
15. Leicester

Law School Rankings

1. Oxford
2. Cambridge
3. UCL
4. LSE
5. Nottingham
6. Queen Mary
7. Aberdeen
8. Durham
9. Birmingham
10. King's
11. Newcastle
12. Glasgow
13. Bristol
14=. Edinburgh
14=. Reading
14=. Strathclyde

Hope this helps a few of you who are undecided on where to study.

Most people take more notice of The Times' rankings than any other list. This years' rankings are out now so I've listed them below, both overall and for law. Obviously the law school rankings are relevant but I've included the overall rankings, despite a few not possessing law school, just for people to get a more informed view of the reputation each university. Note that Queen Mary ranks very highly in the law school rankings largely through its student satisfaction result. Its overall ranking is 36.

Overall Rankings

1. Oxford
2. Cambridge
3. Imperial
4. St. Andrews
5. LSE
6. Durham
7. UCL
8. Warwick
9. York
10. Lancaster
11. Edinburgh
12. Exeter
13. Bath
14. Bristol
15. Leicester

Law School Rankings

1. Oxford
2. Cambridge
3. UCL
4. LSE
5. Nottingham
6. Queen Mary
7. Aberdeen
8. Durham
9. Birmingham
10. King's
11. Newcastle
12. Glasgow
13. Bristol
14=. Edinburgh
14=. Reading
14=. Strathclyde

Hope this helps a few of you who are undecided on where to study.
quote
Kerfuffle

I was just about to post these rankings, then saw your post!

For LLM students, I think student satisfaction is one of the most important indicators to consider - it gives a good impression that law staff actually care about the students and they are not just some unavoidable nuisance while they get on with research. Cambridge, Aberdeen and N'cle are also riding high because of student satisfaction. In fact, if Cambridge's student satisfaction wasn't so high, I wonder if UCL and LSE would pip them (I have an aversion to number crunching so won't work it out...).

The most interesting aspect of those rankings is the slide of some solid British law schools: Manchester, L'pool, Sheffield, Leeds. Manchester's lowly rankings always amaze me as they probably have one of the biggest faculties outside London/Oxbridge.

I was just about to post these rankings, then saw your post!

For LLM students, I think student satisfaction is one of the most important indicators to consider - it gives a good impression that law staff actually care about the students and they are not just some unavoidable nuisance while they get on with research. Cambridge, Aberdeen and N'cle are also riding high because of student satisfaction. In fact, if Cambridge's student satisfaction wasn't so high, I wonder if UCL and LSE would pip them (I have an aversion to number crunching so won't work it out...).

The most interesting aspect of those rankings is the slide of some solid British law schools: Manchester, L'pool, Sheffield, Leeds. Manchester's lowly rankings always amaze me as they probably have one of the biggest faculties outside London/Oxbridge.
quote
Panthro

Biggest doesn't always equal best! While they're good schools I don't think they've ever been as strong as those at the top of the list, even if they might actually deserve to rank higher when judged against other criteria.

My issue with student satisfaction is that it's entirely subjective. The prime example is the University of Sunderland, which has a student satisfaction rating of 96%. With all due respect to Sunderland, it's one of the worst universities in the country, so what exactly are these students comparing their student experience against? I don't want to sound elitist, which would be entirely against my personal values, but I would be very surprised if these students are as demanding as someone at a prestigious university.

Biggest doesn't always equal best! While they're good schools I don't think they've ever been as strong as those at the top of the list, even if they might actually deserve to rank higher when judged against other criteria.

My issue with student satisfaction is that it's entirely subjective. The prime example is the University of Sunderland, which has a student satisfaction rating of 96%. With all due respect to Sunderland, it's one of the worst universities in the country, so what exactly are these students comparing their student experience against? I don't want to sound elitist, which would be entirely against my personal values, but I would be very surprised if these students are as demanding as someone at a prestigious university.
quote
dralanrile...

For LLM students these tables have to be treated with some degree of caution.

Both this guide and the Guardian guide are based on the undergraduate LLB programme.

This can make a lot of difference. For instance, as a result of the focus on the LLB progamme no account is made in the tables of the excellent premises that are available to the Queen Mary LLM students in Lincolns Inn, which are not shared with the LLB students.

Another example is that this table does not take account of specialist LLMs. So although Dundee is not listed in that top list of law schools, for many types of energy postgrad course it is the most well known and highly regarded in academia and in the private sector.

Equally at City we have arranged access to the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies for all our LLM students; which we share with all other London LLMs, and we use the Grays Inn premises of our professional programmes, not the LLB premises.

Whilst I understand that students will look at these tables it is important to understand the limited amount of information that they provide. I would strongly recommend seeking out additional information on LLM programmes than just relying on the tables. So for instance talk with ex-students; practitioners for their perceptions; your own professors-they often have someone in country who they can email-I often get inquires from foreign professors regarding LLM courses-and also ask questions about programmes at Universities you are interested in.

My core questions would focus around:-
1. How many students are in the class. Do you have maximum numbers?
2. Quality Library. Do you have a world class library?
3. Academics: Are they leaders or specialists in their fields (it is unlikely that every staff member is going to be a leader but there is a reasonable expectation that LLM staff should be specialists in the fields they are teaching).
4. Access to internships and engagement with practitioners.
5. Nationality Make Up: For future networking and learning about other cultures a spread of nationalities is desirable.

I hope this information is of help

Professor Alan Riley
Director LLM Programme
Grays Inn
London
Electronic Mail: alan.riley.1@city.ac.uk

For LLM students these tables have to be treated with some degree of caution.

Both this guide and the Guardian guide are based on the undergraduate LLB programme.

This can make a lot of difference. For instance, as a result of the focus on the LLB progamme no account is made in the tables of the excellent premises that are available to the Queen Mary LLM students in Lincolns Inn, which are not shared with the LLB students.

Another example is that this table does not take account of specialist LLMs. So although Dundee is not listed in that top list of law schools, for many types of energy postgrad course it is the most well known and highly regarded in academia and in the private sector.

Equally at City we have arranged access to the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies for all our LLM students; which we share with all other London LLMs, and we use the Grays Inn premises of our professional programmes, not the LLB premises.

Whilst I understand that students will look at these tables it is important to understand the limited amount of information that they provide. I would strongly recommend seeking out additional information on LLM programmes than just relying on the tables. So for instance talk with ex-students; practitioners for their perceptions; your own professors-they often have someone in country who they can email-I often get inquires from foreign professors regarding LLM courses-and also ask questions about programmes at Universities you are interested in.

My core questions would focus around:-
1. How many students are in the class. Do you have maximum numbers?
2. Quality Library. Do you have a world class library?
3. Academics: Are they leaders or specialists in their fields (it is unlikely that every staff member is going to be a leader but there is a reasonable expectation that LLM staff should be specialists in the fields they are teaching).
4. Access to internships and engagement with practitioners.
5. Nationality Make Up: For future networking and learning about other cultures a spread of nationalities is desirable.

I hope this information is of help

Professor Alan Riley
Director LLM Programme
Grays Inn
London
Electronic Mail: alan.riley.1@city.ac.uk
quote
Kerfuffle

Biggest doesn't always equal best! While they're good schools I don't think they've ever been as strong as those at the top of the list, even if they might actually deserve to rank higher when judged against other criteria.

My issue with student satisfaction is that it's entirely subjective. The prime example is the University of Sunderland, which has a student satisfaction rating of 96%. With all due respect to Sunderland, it's one of the worst universities in the country, so what exactly are these students comparing their student experience against? I don't want to sound elitist, which would be entirely against my personal values, but I would be very surprised if these students are as demanding as someone at a prestigious university.


I do not disagree that biggest doesn't equal best - my point was that universities like Manchester, who can afford large impressive faculties, should be performing better (eg not farming off their undergraduate teaching to GTAs).

I may have misunderstood you - but I took your initial comment as intimating that QM didn't really deserve to be in the top ten and was only there because of its high student satisfaction. I cannot comment on QM's LLB, but it certainly deserves to be in a top ten position for its postgraduate programmes (KCL and Edinburgh deserve to be higher too for LLMs).

Of course, ranking should always be taken with a pinch of salt for anyone investing in an LLM, and as Dr Ian Riley rightfully points out, the rankings reflect LLB experience and not that of LLM students.

<blockquote>Biggest doesn't always equal best! While they're good schools I don't think they've ever been as strong as those at the top of the list, even if they might actually deserve to rank higher when judged against other criteria.

My issue with student satisfaction is that it's entirely subjective. The prime example is the University of Sunderland, which has a student satisfaction rating of 96%. With all due respect to Sunderland, it's one of the worst universities in the country, so what exactly are these students comparing their student experience against? I don't want to sound elitist, which would be entirely against my personal values, but I would be very surprised if these students are as demanding as someone at a prestigious university.</blockquote>

I do not disagree that biggest doesn't equal best - my point was that universities like Manchester, who can afford large impressive faculties, should be performing better (eg not farming off their undergraduate teaching to GTAs).

I may have misunderstood you - but I took your initial comment as intimating that QM didn't really deserve to be in the top ten and was only there because of its high student satisfaction. I cannot comment on QM's LLB, but it certainly deserves to be in a top ten position for its postgraduate programmes (KCL and Edinburgh deserve to be higher too for LLMs).

Of course, ranking should always be taken with a pinch of salt for anyone investing in an LLM, and as Dr Ian Riley rightfully points out, the rankings reflect LLB experience and not that of LLM students.
quote
dralanrile...

Dear Kerfuffle,
This is one of the problems with these surveys-they do not necessarily reflect the reality of the situation. You quote Manchester-but they do not in fact make enormous use of GTAs-they in fact have a very impressive tradition of small class teaching on the LLB by senior academics. Somehow that is not reflected in the statistics. Don't ask me why. I don't know...but this sort of reality is why most academics even from institutions who do well in the surveys treat them with a degree of caution, even for LLB purposes.

My point about QM was to say that the extra resources spent on the LLM cannot be reflected in the tables because of their LLB focus.

Professor Alan Riley
Director LLM Programme
City Law School
Grays Inn
London
Electronic Mail: alan.riley.1@city.ac.uk

Dear Kerfuffle,
This is one of the problems with these surveys-they do not necessarily reflect the reality of the situation. You quote Manchester-but they do not in fact make enormous use of GTAs-they in fact have a very impressive tradition of small class teaching on the LLB by senior academics. Somehow that is not reflected in the statistics. Don't ask me why. I don't know...but this sort of reality is why most academics even from institutions who do well in the surveys treat them with a degree of caution, even for LLB purposes.

My point about QM was to say that the extra resources spent on the LLM cannot be reflected in the tables because of their LLB focus.

Professor Alan Riley
Director LLM Programme
City Law School
Grays Inn
London
Electronic Mail: alan.riley.1@city.ac.uk
quote
Kerfuffle

Dr Riley, I beg to differ about Manchester - they regularly use postgraduate students on their LLB programme (not on the LLM programme though). I know this from personal experience. Manchester also attempted to make significant cuts to teaching hours last year.

I don't think rankings on a general basis reflect the reality of the situation.

Dr Riley, I beg to differ about Manchester - they regularly use postgraduate students on their LLB programme (not on the LLM programme though). I know this from personal experience. Manchester also attempted to make significant cuts to teaching hours last year.

I don't think rankings on a general basis reflect the reality of the situation.
quote
pp86

Most people take more notice of The Times' rankings than any other list. This years' rankings are out now so I've listed them below, both overall and for law. Obviously the law school rankings are relevant but I've included the overall rankings, despite a few not possessing law school, just for people to get a more informed view of the reputation each university. Note that Queen Mary ranks very highly in the law school rankings largely through its student satisfaction result. Its overall ranking is 36.

Overall Rankings

1. Oxford
2. Cambridge
3. Imperial
4. St. Andrews
5. LSE
6. Durham
7. UCL
8. Warwick
9. York
10. Lancaster
11. Edinburgh
12. Exeter
13. Bath
14. Bristol
15. Leicester

Law School Rankings

1. Oxford
2. Cambridge
3. UCL
4. LSE
5. Nottingham
6. Queen Mary
7. Aberdeen
8. Durham
9. Birmingham
10. King's
11. Newcastle
12. Glasgow
13. Bristol
14=. Edinburgh
14=. Reading
14=. Strathclyde

Hope this helps a few of you who are undecided on where to study.


Rankings are such a contradiction... This one says Durham in 8th position n Guardian says 22nd (last year it was 11th in Guardian)... Such a huge difference!
I have lost faith in rankings... No two rankings r anywhere near each other... Strange!!!!
No more rankings crap for me... I suggest you guys not to take these rankings too seriously and take into account other imp factors like the faculty/profs, modules, feedback from folks who've studied thr, etc...
Good Luck :)

<blockquote>Most people take more notice of The Times' rankings than any other list. This years' rankings are out now so I've listed them below, both overall and for law. Obviously the law school rankings are relevant but I've included the overall rankings, despite a few not possessing law school, just for people to get a more informed view of the reputation each university. Note that Queen Mary ranks very highly in the law school rankings largely through its student satisfaction result. Its overall ranking is 36.

Overall Rankings

1. Oxford
2. Cambridge
3. Imperial
4. St. Andrews
5. LSE
6. Durham
7. UCL
8. Warwick
9. York
10. Lancaster
11. Edinburgh
12. Exeter
13. Bath
14. Bristol
15. Leicester

Law School Rankings

1. Oxford
2. Cambridge
3. UCL
4. LSE
5. Nottingham
6. Queen Mary
7. Aberdeen
8. Durham
9. Birmingham
10. King's
11. Newcastle
12. Glasgow
13. Bristol
14=. Edinburgh
14=. Reading
14=. Strathclyde

Hope this helps a few of you who are undecided on where to study.</blockquote>

Rankings are such a contradiction... This one says Durham in 8th position n Guardian says 22nd (last year it was 11th in Guardian)... Such a huge difference!
I have lost faith in rankings... No two rankings r anywhere near each other... Strange!!!!
No more rankings crap for me... I suggest you guys not to take these rankings too seriously and take into account other imp factors like the faculty/profs, modules, feedback from folks who've studied thr, etc...
Good Luck :)
quote
cmars

I am sure that those qualified to take an LL.M. in the UK are not so gullible as to believe any of these rankings. All the newspaper rankings are a standing joke - make your decision based on your own research and recommendations by friends.
The biggest of the many problems with rankings is that they are extraordinarily subjective - student satisfaction for instance. The lower you rate your university, the worse its ranking, the worse the reputation of your degree, the lower your chance of securing a good job.
To repeat, there is only one objective set of rankings (though they do not refer to teaching): http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/table/2008/dec/18/rae-results-2008-law-degree

I am sure that those qualified to take an LL.M. in the UK are not so gullible as to believe any of these rankings. All the newspaper rankings are a standing joke - make your decision based on your own research and recommendations by friends.
The biggest of the many problems with rankings is that they are extraordinarily subjective - student satisfaction for instance. The lower you rate your university, the worse its ranking, the worse the reputation of your degree, the lower your chance of securing a good job.
To repeat, there is only one objective set of rankings (though they do not refer to teaching): http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/table/2008/dec/18/rae-results-2008-law-degree
quote
Kerfuffle

Here's the Sunday Times University Guide 2011 Law Rankings (heavily based on undergrad data). LSE is missing (either the people who produce these things are dumb or LSE didn't submit the necessary data).

1 University of Cambridge
2 University of Oxford
3 Newcastle University
4 Durham University
5 University College London
6 University of Nottingham
7 Queen Mary, University of London
8 University of Warwick
9 University of Aberdeen
10 University of Edinburgh
11 University of Leicester
12 King's College London
13 University of Southampton
14 University of Glasgow
15 University of Reading
16 University of Exeter
17 Lancaster University
18 University of Bristol
19 University of Dundee
20 University of Sussex

Here's the Sunday Times University Guide 2011 Law Rankings (heavily based on undergrad data). LSE is missing (either the people who produce these things are dumb or LSE didn't submit the necessary data).

1 University of Cambridge
2 University of Oxford
3 Newcastle University
4 Durham University
5 University College London
6 University of Nottingham
7 Queen Mary, University of London
8 University of Warwick
9 University of Aberdeen
10 University of Edinburgh
11 University of Leicester
12 King's College London
13 University of Southampton
14 University of Glasgow
15 University of Reading
16 University of Exeter
17 Lancaster University
18 University of Bristol
19 University of Dundee
20 University of Sussex
quote
Wheretogo_

I don't think LSE submitted the data it was supposed to send hence the reason why they are not in the rankings.

It also shows some fluctuations, i.e Bristol a top law school is now 18th.

I would disagree with Leicester being 11th and Reading 15th.

This is all student satisfaction and not very accurate.

I don't think LSE submitted the data it was supposed to send hence the reason why they are not in the rankings.

It also shows some fluctuations, i.e Bristol a top law school is now 18th.

I would disagree with Leicester being 11th and Reading 15th.

This is all student satisfaction and not very accurate.
quote
cmars

I really do advise you not to base a decision on these rankings - Newcastle has a great undergrad nightlife, and you'll note that it is 3rd and its nighttime companion (close to Newcastle) Durham is 4th. No-one would put these ahead of UCL and Kings in LL.M. rankings.

I really do advise you not to base a decision on these rankings - Newcastle has a great undergrad nightlife, and you'll note that it is 3rd and its nighttime companion (close to Newcastle) Durham is 4th. No-one would put these ahead of UCL and Kings in LL.M. rankings.
quote
Sid5

City University:

http://www.llm-guide.com/board/6558/1

City University:

http://www.llm-guide.com/board/6558/1
quote
Panthro

I really do advise you not to base a decision on these rankings - Newcastle has a great undergrad nightlife, and you'll note that it is 3rd and its nighttime companion (close to Newcastle) Durham is 4th. No-one would put these ahead of UCL and Kings in LL.M. rankings.


Newcastle no, but Durham would definitely be ahead of Kings and is pretty much on a par with UCL. That's not just my opinion but the opinion of the top 10 City law firm I have a career with. Only foreigners think Kings has such a strong reputation.

<blockquote>I really do advise you not to base a decision on these rankings - Newcastle has a great undergrad nightlife, and you'll note that it is 3rd and its nighttime companion (close to Newcastle) Durham is 4th. No-one would put these ahead of UCL and Kings in LL.M. rankings.</blockquote>

Newcastle no, but Durham would definitely be ahead of Kings and is pretty much on a par with UCL. That's not just my opinion but the opinion of the top 10 City law firm I have a career with. Only foreigners think Kings has such a strong reputation.
quote
cmars

Durham did very well in the 2008 RAE (4th) well ahead of Kings. KCL is very good for competition law and technology law, but I'd generally agree with you.

Durham did very well in the 2008 RAE (4th) well ahead of Kings. KCL is very good for competition law and technology law, but I'd generally agree with you.
quote
EDIpostgra...

Another point to consider in these rankings is who is answering. Rarely do those who are completely satisfied with their studies take the time to answer these polls, which is why they are not necessarily effective. (having been a student rep on a review of student evaluations panel I a fairly confident in this observation).
The best thing you can do is get in touch with people who have had personal experience at a uni...as the saying goes, 'one man's trash is another man's treasure'.
Also, most of the universities will have some informal way to put you in contact with former/existing students. There are also the open days for potential LLM students which I have attended on several occassions to speak to students.
This site is clearly also a good opportunity, too!

Another point to consider in these rankings is who is answering. Rarely do those who are completely satisfied with their studies take the time to answer these polls, which is why they are not necessarily effective. (having been a student rep on a review of student evaluations panel I a fairly confident in this observation).
The best thing you can do is get in touch with people who have had personal experience at a uni...as the saying goes, 'one man's trash is another man's treasure'.
Also, most of the universities will have some informal way to put you in contact with former/existing students. There are also the open days for potential LLM students which I have attended on several occassions to speak to students.
This site is clearly also a good opportunity, too!
quote

Hey all I am really confused could anyone tell me which is a better college for corporate law Durham or Nottingham as I have offers from both

Hey all I am really confused could anyone tell me which is a better college for corporate law Durham or Nottingham as I have offers from both
quote

hi,

i am interested in LLM in corporate law (not international trade and business law)......
i have three universities in mind....
1). university of Birmingham
2). university of Durhum.
3). university of Manchester.

please help me out as i have very less time to apply.
your suggestions and advise is valuable for me..
thanks in advance

hi,

i am interested in LLM in corporate law (not international trade and business law)......
i have three universities in mind....
1). university of Birmingham
2). university of Durhum.
3). university of Manchester.

please help me out as i have very less time to apply.
your suggestions and advise is valuable for me..
thanks in advance
quote
dralanrile...

Dear Gaurav,
The difficulty here in advising you is pinning down exactly what you mean by corporate law if you exclude business law! Do you mean just pure company law? Does business law exclude for you such subjects as competition law, tax law, employment law, environmental law and IPR law...all subjects which businesses have to deal with?

Some more detail and some idea of what you want to do with your LLM would help in providing some advice.

with best regards
ALAN RILEY

Professor Alan Riley
LLM Programme Director
City Law School
City University
Grays Inn
London
Electronic Mail: alan.riley.1@city.ac.uk

Dear Gaurav,
The difficulty here in advising you is pinning down exactly what you mean by corporate law if you exclude business law! Do you mean just pure company law? Does business law exclude for you such subjects as competition law, tax law, employment law, environmental law and IPR law...all subjects which businesses have to deal with?

Some more detail and some idea of what you want to do with your LLM would help in providing some advice.

with best regards
ALAN RILEY

Professor Alan Riley
LLM Programme Director
City Law School
City University
Grays Inn
London
Electronic Mail: alan.riley.1@city.ac.uk
quote

Sir,

i am thinking about international trade and commercial law......as per you, which university should i go for....
1. univ of durham
2. univ of manchester
3. univ of warwick
4. univ of birmingham

thanking you.

warm regards

Sir,

i am thinking about international trade and commercial law......as per you, which university should i go for....
1. univ of durham
2. univ of manchester
3. univ of warwick
4. univ of birmingham

thanking you.

warm regards
quote

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