To those of you thinking about doing the London LLM please be advised next year is the last year to do it.

Queen Mary, King's and University College are all going their seperate ways with separate LLM programs.

Details are still being negotiated.

Where did you get this information, do you have a link?

About time too.

How do you know that this is true?

I'm currently in the LLM programme.

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About time too.
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I totally disagree with that statement.

None of the universities involved have the resources to offer anything other than narrow, specialized postgraduate degrees.

I shrudder to think what my experience would be like here if I were limited to one universities courses, libraries or other facilities.

IMHO the program currently offers things Cambridge and Oxford can not because of the breadth of the program. Eliminate this and you have four different and distinct programmes competing with regional U.K. universities.

What's the point of doing an LLM if it's not a narrow or specialised degree? That surely is the whole point of doing an LLM - to gain expertise in a particular subject. An LLM is not the fourth year of an LLB.

What I dislike about the intercollegiate LLM is the different standards of teaching between the separate institutions.

In any event, you wouldn't be that limited. You'd have your college library, and the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies, Senate House library, Inn library (if you're a member of one), plus loads of public libaries like the British Library.

"What's the point of doing an LLM if it's not a narrow or specialised degree?"

The world today does not fit into the neat compartmentalized world of British academic divisions.

Can you really become an expert in IP law as it is practised today without doing a bit of computer/internet law? How about throwing human rights into the field? You need to study the media?

In London you can do the copyright course at all 4 schools but internet law is only at QMUL, electronic media law at King's and freedom of expression human rights pops up at UCL.

The beauty of London is that you can create your own specialization. The combination above yields an LLM in IP law...without the patent or trade mark or design law most IP programs will force you to take. If you're aiming for the media why waste your time in patent class?

"What I dislike about the intercollegiate LLM is the different standards of teaching between the separate institutions"

Having been here for three months what I most dislike is the different standards of teaching within institutions. You can get great profs like Jeremy Phillips and Adrian Sterling teaching at Queen Mary and absolute disasters (names protected to preserve my anonymity) at UCL. I wish all the instructors could speak academic English...they don't.

Then the hidden secret: a lot of the students are not up to standard. We're three months into the year and some haven't a clue as to what Westlaw or Lexis are. They're still studying their London A to Z. I wish I was making this up. If you are paying overseas tuition and can breathe...well, I suppose breathing may be option if you can pay the tuition. There are a few students who enroll in October, follow the reading on the syllabus and show up for exams.

In terms of libraries...I have not been to the SOAS library but the other three are not particularly good for law. IALS would be nice if they had the books they claim they have. Interlibrary loans are not automatic as LLM students are not considered research students. I've managed to get a readers pass to Cambridge (undergraduate connection); it's a big advantage for me.

I take your point. Each to his own.

"Having been here for three months what I most dislike is the different standards of teaching within institutions...then the hidden secret: a lot of the students are not up to standard."

Yeah, well, what do you expect. It's London after all. You pays your money and you takes your chance.

"If you are paying overseas tuition and can breathe..."

I also agree. It's widely known that every UK institution is crying out for non-EU students so that they can charge them the full whack.

This is true also - and quite unbelievably - of the BVC. There's a girl in my group from Pakistan who can barely speak English. And she's studying to become a Barrister!

"There's a girl in my group from Pakistan who can barely speak English. And she's studying to become a Barrister!"

It doesn't surprise me.

I have one professor whose grasp of the English language is suspect. He has trouble with he and she all those "complicated" genders. "Ah" is the most common word in his vocabulary. He mumbles in Greek, his native tounge.

At times it seems surreal: a poor English speaker with no interest in lecturing (it interrupts his research) speaking about European law to a room full of poor English speakers from Commonwealth countries who seem to have little interest in the subject.

The apathy of the students feeds into the disinterest of the professor in a sort of downward spiral.

In my other classes I find the professors having to slow down the teaching to the level of the students thus making it very boring for those of us ready to be taught at the postgraduate level. In this class, though, the guy could start reading the telephone directory and I doubt anyone would notice or care.

I feel sorry for the girl wanting to be a barrister or some of the students in my classes here. Ten thousand quid for...nothing they can benefit from.

Dear Turkued. I have no doubt that your Greek professor is illiterate. I would like to inform you,though,that english genders as "he"and"she" are not THAT complicated for a Greek person. This man may be silly but, after all, it was a British University that made him a professor and allowed him to teach you. Concerning the foreign students. I understand this is a problem for you. Unfortunately, this is the price you pay for your language being internatinal and necessary for everything. Sine qua non.
I hope to be admitted next year to London LLM. I am really eager to come to your beautiful country and I promise I'll work on my english.Cheers!

Don't worry, some classes are excellent and academic challenging. Being currently at UCL, I can tell you that the Compared and Secured Transactions class taught by Michael Bridge is really tricky, technical and academic challenging. A true postgraduate degree class...You can also think about attending European Financial Regulations with M Dalhuisen at KCL, who is teaching pursuant to the Socrates way some useful concept in Financial or commercial Law. The Torts Class at UCL taught by M Markesinis, Insolvency Law, Banking Law at KCL, Trust Law at KCL, etc.. are very satisfactory, i.e the content is interesting, tough and useful, and teachers excellent. Of course, not all classes at London University LLM are interesting or challenging, but some of them are really satisfactory !

Cheers,
Ronin

I don't think London is alone in sometimes putting financial considerations ahead of academic credentials when selecting its students. Oxbridge has a long history of giving places to rowers, the children of heads of state and of rich former students even if they don't make the grade intellectually.

The problem with bad lecturers is sadly a symptom of modern academia, which puts far more emphasis on research and the production of books/articles than teaching quality. Many academics see teaching as an irritant. The best teachers I've had at london and oxford were those who didn't assume they knew all the answers and felt they had something to learn from listening to the views of their students. Dworkin's BCL seminars at oxford were legendary in that regard - more like general discussions of his current research than lectures. I think he still does the occasional class at UCL, but he's only part-time there. Profs Matthews and Hayton's seminars on the KCL LLM Trusts course are also taught in a very interactive and challenging style. Some of the large classes (eg arbitration at QMUL) also run supplementary tutorials, which tend to be more useful and more rewarding.

One point on the BVC though, large numbers of overseas students do it so that they can be called to the English Bar not so that they can practice in England as barristers. To take studentbarista's example, some Pakistanis regard it as a matter of prestige to be called by Lincoln's Inn as Jinnah was a former member. Having finished the course many go straight back home. You might think it weird that people would pay 10 grand for something as useless as the BVC (which in reality is a joke qualification that doesn't prepare you in the slightest for the challenge of pupillage) but if it helps them get ahead back home then that's fair enough I suppose...

Mr. K - that is true, as the particular girl in question is intending to practice in Pakistan. It will be interesting to see how the Bar Council's new rules on the deferral of call until after pupillage will affect people like her. Presumably the BVC providers will find it even harder to fill places on the course!

Hi all! I've a question.
Is it possible to apply at UCL or KCL for a "general" LLM and only after their offer of acceptance decide which courses to take? I ask this because from their website I would say it is possible, but in the application form you have to indicate the 4 subjects you'd like to chose.....

Thanks

Don't worry, your choice in your application is not binding. It is just for information purpose. The subjects I have finally chosen once in the LLM are different from what I put in the application form.

Hi thanks! Just for information, what which university and which subject did you chose? Are you satisfied?

Thanks.

manu

Hello,

I finally decided to go to UCL. My subjects are the following :

1 Legal Aspects of International Finance with Prof Graham Penn
2 European Financial regulations (at KCL) with Prof Jan Dalhuisen (Socrates way teaching, can be confusing for some students, but excellent teacher)
3 Comparative Secured Transactions with Prof Michael Bridge (very tricky and technical, but really interesting)
4 Comparative Torts Law with Prof Basil Markesinis

I am very happy with all those subjects. I tried to go on classes academically challenging (ie satisafactory content) taught by a known teacher, and if possible with few students as it is better to make contacts and work closely with students and teachers. Of course, you will be expected to prepare and do your reading efficiently when you are les numerous ! We are numerous in Legal Aspects but the other 3 classes have no more than 25 students and the atmosphere is excellent.

I have heard that the following classes are also excellent if you target the same (ie satisfactory content, very known teacher, few students)
1 International insolvency Law at UCL with Prof Ian Fletcher (I plan to attend as a listener at the 2nd Term)
2 Commercial Banking Law (at KCL) with Prof Richard Hooley
3 International Trust Law (at KCL) with Prof Paul Matthews. I am quite frustrated to have timeclash with Prof Bridge Class so that I can not attend to this one, as this Trust Law class is a passionating experience for continental lawyers.

I hope it helps,
Ronin

Thank you Ronin!
Do you happen to know whether the IP courses are well organised and worth being followed? Or is it better to stay on "commercial" aspects of the law, as those you mentioned?

.... sorry to bother....

ciao

Ronin,

Excellent choice of courses. Prof. Bridge taught me as an undergraduate, and I have only the highest praise for him as an academic, scholar and teacher. The courses by Graham Penn and Markesinis are also brilliant.

Alas, I must warn you, the best courses are usually the hardest and involve the most work!!

Happy studying! :-)

Thank you Kazaf !

You are right, the best courses are the ones who invlove the most work, especially as I am not familiar with common Law. But this is exactly why I selected especially MM Bridge and Markesinis classes as I really wanted the British experience and make something new !

What about you ? Which classes did you choose in Harvard ?

Ronin

Thank you Ronin!
Do you happen to know whether the IP courses are well organised and worth being followed? Or is it better to stay on "commercial" aspects of the law, as those you mentioned?

.... sorry to bother....

ciao