Harvard LLM vs. Oxford BCL


I have to agree with Busingye: you don't need to do both but if you have the opportunity why not and to a cetain extent it sometimes depends on your circumstances. I'll be going to Cambridge to do my second masters. Did I intentionally plan to do this? No. It's just the way circumstances dictate what you should do.

I know of many people who have done both the BCL and LLM. One of my best friends was accepted to do. He told Harvard that he was going to do the bcl, at which point they turned round and said to him that they would keep the offer open for the following year.

We're not saying you should do it or there is a need to do it, but if you can do and want to do it, then i don't see what should stop you!

I have to agree with Busingye: you don't need to do both but if you have the opportunity why not and to a cetain extent it sometimes depends on your circumstances. I'll be going to Cambridge to do my second masters. Did I intentionally plan to do this? No. It's just the way circumstances dictate what you should do.

I know of many people who have done both the BCL and LLM. One of my best friends was accepted to do. He told Harvard that he was going to do the bcl, at which point they turned round and said to him that they would keep the offer open for the following year.

We're not saying you should do it or there is a need to do it, but if you can do and want to do it, then i don't see what should stop you!
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equity's d...

I'm not really sure the post above really adresses the question. Of course it's a matter of taste and of course you are free to do whatever you like, but the question I think was whether it makes carrer sense (either academically or firm/business wise) to do another matser's in law. If that is the question, then I really don't think it makes sense.
Academically, there is no question whatever that you'd be better off doing a PhD and focussing on publications than doing a second LLM.
And business wise, I think if you really felt a need to get futher educational credentials (which I'm not sure you do if you already have the harvLLM), I'd suggest there are other degrees (beside the BCL) that are of more utility in the parctive of big law/ big business. Consider an MBA, or a CA for starters. Those provide indredible networking opportunitiea and real business acumen.

I'm not really sure the post above really adresses the question. Of course it's a matter of taste and of course you are free to do whatever you like, but the question I think was whether it makes carrer sense (either academically or firm/business wise) to do another matser's in law. If that is the question, then I really don't think it makes sense.
Academically, there is no question whatever that you'd be better off doing a PhD and focussing on publications than doing a second LLM.
And business wise, I think if you really felt a need to get futher educational credentials (which I'm not sure you do if you already have the harvLLM), I'd suggest there are other degrees (beside the BCL) that are of more utility in the parctive of big law/ big business. Consider an MBA, or a CA for starters. Those provide indredible networking opportunitiea and real business acumen.

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fg

Actually, that is a REALLY good point.
Julie - if you wanted the Oxbridge experience I would suggest taking ED's approach and getting another Masters (an MPhil) in management, economics, business or anything really. I actually know people who have done their PhDs and then gone on to do an MBA or MPhil in order to learn how to apply their esoteric research to business. A great combination I think. Personally, I often wish I had an economics degree.
My sense from reading the other posts is that the main argument is prestige/reputation and having both Harvard and Oxford after your names than gaining any additional substantive benefit from another law Masters.

Actually, that is a REALLY good point.
Julie - if you wanted the Oxbridge experience I would suggest taking ED's approach and getting another Masters (an MPhil) in management, economics, business or anything really. I actually know people who have done their PhDs and then gone on to do an MBA or MPhil in order to learn how to apply their esoteric research to business. A great combination I think. Personally, I often wish I had an economics degree.
My sense from reading the other posts is that the main argument is prestige/reputation and having both Harvard and Oxford after your names than gaining any additional substantive benefit from another law Masters.
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Inactive User

all good points...Julie do you like sushi:)

all good points...Julie do you like sushi:)
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fg

One final thing, I am not sure the argument that because you received a full scholarship it has cost you nothing makes financial sense either. Even with a full scholarship for fees etc you are still taking a year out of your career which will cost you both in terms of salary (in NY that is US$155k before tax, I am not sure about other country) and the additional year work experience.
In short, if you think it makes sense to do two law Masters by all means go for it but I would think very carefully about your reasons.

One final thing, I am not sure the argument that because you received a full scholarship it has cost you nothing makes financial sense either. Even with a full scholarship for fees etc you are still taking a year out of your career which will cost you both in terms of salary (in NY that is US$155k before tax, I am not sure about other country) and the additional year work experience.
In short, if you think it makes sense to do two law Masters by all means go for it but I would think very carefully about your reasons.
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equity's d...

I like sushi

I like sushi
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Inactive User

okay...i'll be serious for a moment:P there is really no getting round the fact that reason leans heavier on the side of E's D and FG. That said, life is not one big ball of reason. The prettiest girl does not always marry the most handsome fella (otherwise some of us would be in real trouble). You have but one life...try to live it in such a way that you have as few regrets as possible.

For my part I am not sure i would not look back at 50 and wish i'd not seen how its done the other side. In the end it boiled down to just that for me...

So there u have it. It doesn't make much sense, it is a great expense both in terms of time and money. But i am still going for it. Thats me, thats Baron, thats AnnaC, and thats a few other blokes. If u can avoid the temptation, please do. but if u have some time and a little money to spare, stop by!

okay...i'll be serious for a moment:P there is really no getting round the fact that reason leans heavier on the side of E's D and FG. That said, life is not one big ball of reason. The prettiest girl does not always marry the most handsome fella (otherwise some of us would be in real trouble). You have but one life...try to live it in such a way that you have as few regrets as possible.

For my part I am not sure i would not look back at 50 and wish i'd not seen how its done the other side. In the end it boiled down to just that for me...

So there u have it. It doesn't make much sense, it is a great expense both in terms of time and money. But i am still going for it. Thats me, thats Baron, thats AnnaC, and thats a few other blokes. If u can avoid the temptation, please do. but if u have some time and a little money to spare, stop by!
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Inactive User

I like sushi


Lol:P

<blockquote>I like sushi
</blockquote>

Lol:P
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equity's d...

Fair enough. They say it's better to regret the things you did, than the thing's you didn't do. So, even if it turns out to be a great waste of time and resources, you're ok in the final analysis. Besides, it sounds like you won't regret it at all.

The only nagging question I have from this perspective is, if the choice is motivated by a "hair in the wind, live life to the fullest' philosophy, then, well, there are MANY, MANY beter ways to spend your time than memorizing ratios in order to barf them back in a three hour pie eating contest.

Fair enough. They say it's better to regret the things you did, than the thing's you didn't do. So, even if it turns out to be a great waste of time and resources, you're ok in the final analysis. Besides, it sounds like you won't regret it at all.

The only nagging question I have from this perspective is, if the choice is motivated by a "hair in the wind, live life to the fullest' philosophy, then, well, there are MANY, MANY beter ways to spend your time than memorizing ratios in order to barf them back in a three hour pie eating contest.
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Inactive User

Okay, here's the deal...the title of your thread was the BCL vs the HLS LLM...it is a tough call, and whichever way you choose, u might always wonder about the other. all SB and I r saying is that there is another way, where u dont have to choose:D its an indulgence, yeah, but an option nevertheless. in a way its a lazy and costly way out of indecision, and i do condemn it in the harshest terms possible:P but if u can...and u wanna...go for it:))

Okay, here's the deal...the title of your thread was the BCL vs the HLS LLM...it is a tough call, and whichever way you choose, u might always wonder about the other. all SB and I r saying is that there is another way, where u dont have to choose:D its an indulgence, yeah, but an option nevertheless. in a way its a lazy and costly way out of indecision, and i do condemn it in the harshest terms possible:P but if u can...and u wanna...go for it:))
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Busingye i have your back on this one :-)

No seriously, ED and flygirl make some valid points. If you want to go into the world of academia you should definitely do a PhD instead of another masters. It will definitely be more beneficial. You could do other degrees like in economics or a MBA but that depends on you knowing what areas of law you want to do and go into.

But in saying that will doing the LLM and the BCL harm your legal career. Will having oxford and harvard on your CV not give you an advantage? All i'm saying is that there are different courses for different horses. I already have a masters but i don't what to do a PhD because i can't see myself studying on one particular area for 3/4 years. In addition, I want to practice rather than enter the world of academia. Will doing the second masters help my career? I hope so because it will be from Cambridge. People mention that it will be waste of another year and in that time you could be working and earning money. But I don't see it like that. I'm sure you will recoup that money in no time, spending what 40k-50k may now seem a lot but that will be pittance to what you can potential earn in 10 years time. Most importantly, who knows how long your career will last. You may outlive ED, flygirl, myself and busingye and thus have a longer career etc etc, who knows what will happen in the future....

But thats me, ED and flygirl have different aspirations, some people enter the legal profession after having doing something else. Question is do you want to do it, do you have the resources to do it? If yes then go for it. Just to give you an example below is a link to a profile of a partner at a leading american law firm. If you check out the profile, he has 2 masters, one from Cambridge and one from Georgetown and he doesn't seem to be doing badly for himself! Also note he did his original undergraduate law degree from cambridge and so some may argue that he didn't even need to do a masters let alone two but he nonetheless did! (phew!!!!!!)

http://www.sidley.com/lawyers/bio.asp?ID=P342281521

Busingye i have your back on this one :-)

No seriously, ED and flygirl make some valid points. If you want to go into the world of academia you should definitely do a PhD instead of another masters. It will definitely be more beneficial. You could do other degrees like in economics or a MBA but that depends on you knowing what areas of law you want to do and go into.

But in saying that will doing the LLM and the BCL harm your legal career. Will having oxford and harvard on your CV not give you an advantage? All i'm saying is that there are different courses for different horses. I already have a masters but i don't what to do a PhD because i can't see myself studying on one particular area for 3/4 years. In addition, I want to practice rather than enter the world of academia. Will doing the second masters help my career? I hope so because it will be from Cambridge. People mention that it will be waste of another year and in that time you could be working and earning money. But I don't see it like that. I'm sure you will recoup that money in no time, spending what 40k-50k may now seem a lot but that will be pittance to what you can potential earn in 10 years time. Most importantly, who knows how long your career will last. You may outlive ED, flygirl, myself and busingye and thus have a longer career etc etc, who knows what will happen in the future....

But thats me, ED and flygirl have different aspirations, some people enter the legal profession after having doing something else. Question is do you want to do it, do you have the resources to do it? If yes then go for it. Just to give you an example below is a link to a profile of a partner at a leading american law firm. If you check out the profile, he has 2 masters, one from Cambridge and one from Georgetown and he doesn't seem to be doing badly for himself! Also note he did his original undergraduate law degree from cambridge and so some may argue that he didn't even need to do a masters let alone two but he nonetheless did! (phew!!!!!!)

http://www.sidley.com/lawyers/bio.asp?ID=P342281521

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fg

Ummm...I can't really be bothered with discussion anymore since I think all points have been made.
That being said, the point about the partner is misleading. For every one partner in a firm you can find with two Masters you can finding 100 more at least with only one Masters and even more with none at all. So that example dispproves your point rather than makes it.
In addition, the Cambridge Masters in Laws is an LLM not an M.A. so it would seem his second Masters wasn't in law which supports ED's early point about diversity.

Ummm...I can't really be bothered with discussion anymore since I think all points have been made.
That being said, the point about the partner is misleading. For every one partner in a firm you can find with two Masters you can finding 100 more at least with only one Masters and even more with none at all. So that example dispproves your point rather than makes it.
In addition, the Cambridge Masters in Laws is an LLM not an M.A. so it would seem his second Masters wasn't in law which supports ED's early point about diversity.
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Busingye :

spot on dude. ....

The temptation to do both, if you can manage the finances, is irresistible.

Where are you going ?

I'm hoping to be headed to Oxford - the cobbled streets, Raz, Raz, Raz & more Raz !

Busingye :

spot on dude. ....

The temptation to do both, if you can manage the finances, is irresistible.

Where are you going ?

I'm hoping to be headed to Oxford - the cobbled streets, Raz, Raz, Raz & more Raz !
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Inactive User

Heh..Verily, verily i say unto you...around this time in September, i will be treading upon the autumn leaves in Boston:)

Heh..Verily, verily i say unto you...around this time in September, i will be treading upon the autumn leaves in Boston:)
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jarndyce

Flygirl's right - if you do a cambridge BA they give you an MA a year after you graduate, in a sort of honorary fashion, without actually having to do the study. So I suspect that partner hasn't really got two MAs/LLMs.
I don't really see the point about having to choose between another LLM/BCL and Phd. There are other graduate degrees i think - Mst or Mphil etc. These seem the obvious thing to do if you don't want to go on to a phd yet or ever, but like the idea of more grad law study. They're only a year still i think, but at least a little different to your last, and actually doing a bit of research. Also something less exam focused.
At the same time, I agree there can be no harm in another LLM, if you've got the money and time to play with.

Flygirl's right - if you do a cambridge BA they give you an MA a year after you graduate, in a sort of honorary fashion, without actually having to do the study. So I suspect that partner hasn't really got two MAs/LLMs.
I don't really see the point about having to choose between another LLM/BCL and Phd. There are other graduate degrees i think - Mst or Mphil etc. These seem the obvious thing to do if you don't want to go on to a phd yet or ever, but like the idea of more grad law study. They're only a year still i think, but at least a little different to your last, and actually doing a bit of research. Also something less exam focused.
At the same time, I agree there can be no harm in another LLM, if you've got the money and time to play with.
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fg

Heh, Raz as a draw card?! He also teaches at Columbia for one semester a year and he is a lovely man but a terrible teacher. I love his writing but would just read his books and steer clear of his classes. I have heard he is a good research supervisor though.
You know he retired recently though, right? I don't think he teaches at Oxford any more but perhaps the BCL students can correct me on this.

Heh, Raz as a draw card?! He also teaches at Columbia for one semester a year and he is a lovely man but a terrible teacher. I love his writing but would just read his books and steer clear of his classes. I have heard he is a good research supervisor though.
You know he retired recently though, right? I don't think he teaches at Oxford any more but perhaps the BCL students can correct me on this.
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fg

Wishful Thinking - I notice from another post that you are deciding between Oxford and Columbia. If Raz is who you want to study with then I recommend CLS since he still teaches there for half a year due to no compulsory retirement like in the UK.

Wishful Thinking - I notice from another post that you are deciding between Oxford and Columbia. If Raz is who you want to study with then I recommend CLS since he still teaches there for half a year due to no compulsory retirement like in the UK.
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hmmm .........i intend to get back to practise ... and in India. . . the brand oxford opens doors !!!

hmmm .........i intend to get back to practise ... and in India. . . the brand oxford opens doors !!!
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dreams

I am in a similar position: I have offers from Harvard, Oxford and Cambridge (where I currently study). I know for a fact that I definitely want to do the Harvard LLM next year because I have never been to America and would love the experience. I am from Malaysia and therefore the UK has been a great three years for me but I'd like to experience an alternative. Should I decide to do the Oxford BCL after my Harvard LLM, does anyone know whether Oxford is ok with deferring entry for a year after they have already offered it to me for the coming academic year?

I am in a similar position: I have offers from Harvard, Oxford and Cambridge (where I currently study). I know for a fact that I definitely want to do the Harvard LLM next year because I have never been to America and would love the experience. I am from Malaysia and therefore the UK has been a great three years for me but I'd like to experience an alternative. Should I decide to do the Oxford BCL after my Harvard LLM, does anyone know whether Oxford is ok with deferring entry for a year after they have already offered it to me for the coming academic year?
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fg

As to whether you should do the BCL after your Harvard LLM I think we have comprehensively touched on all the issues in this post.
As for a deferral, I am not sure whether Oxford does that. When I was accepted into the BCL programme I inquired about that and Endicott told me that I should not consider the BCL after my LLM and instead move on to a research programme. I am not sure if that answers your question but it does indicate the general attitude of the faculty towards having both degrees and perhaps that would influence whether they would allow a deferral in your case.

As to whether you should do the BCL after your Harvard LLM I think we have comprehensively touched on all the issues in this post.
As for a deferral, I am not sure whether Oxford does that. When I was accepted into the BCL programme I inquired about that and Endicott told me that I should not consider the BCL after my LLM and instead move on to a research programme. I am not sure if that answers your question but it does indicate the general attitude of the faculty towards having both degrees and perhaps that would influence whether they would allow a deferral in your case.
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