Chicago versus U of T


Hello everyone,

I am Canadian and have been accepted to Chicago, the University of Toronto, and Georgetown. I will say off the top that Chicago was my first choice--I am very interested in administrative law, particularly the tradeoff between rules and standards, and an economic approach to law is very helpful for that purpose. I also appreciate what I have learned about Chicago--the small class sizes etc. My goal is academia in Canada.

That said, I am struggling. U of T tuition is far cheaper than Chicago, and is highly regarded in Canadian circles. Chicago is as well, I gather. Though not as much as a Harvard or Yale. The cost of going to Chicago, even with financial assistance, would exacerbate my debt load.

At the same time, my heart says Chicago, even if my pocketbook does not. I think the experience of studying at a school like Chicago is once in a lifetime, an opportunity not many get.

I wonder if anyone can shed light on this predicament. I should say I am waiting on NYU Legal Theory, one way or another.

Thanks in advance.

[Edited by HarveyBirdman Attorney At Law on Mar 01, 2018]

Hello everyone,

I am Canadian and have been accepted to Chicago, the University of Toronto, and Georgetown. I will say off the top that Chicago was my first choice--I am very interested in administrative law, particularly the tradeoff between rules and standards, and an economic approach to law is very helpful for that purpose. I also appreciate what I have learned about Chicago--the small class sizes etc. My goal is academia in Canada.

That said, I am struggling. U of T tuition is far cheaper than Chicago, and is highly regarded in Canadian circles. Chicago is as well, I gather. Though not as much as a Harvard or Yale. The cost of going to Chicago, even with financial assistance, would exacerbate my debt load.

At the same time, my heart says Chicago, even if my pocketbook does not. I think the experience of studying at a school like Chicago is once in a lifetime, an opportunity not many get.

I wonder if anyone can shed light on this predicament. I should say I am waiting on NYU Legal Theory, one way or another.

Thanks in advance.
quote
Mustacho
Hi,
I would definitely go to Chicago. My two cents are I don't think tuition is ever wasted on a top 4-5 law school and having attended an elite school will follow you your entire career. I'd say the case for attending is even stronger in your situation, as you're destined for academia and Chicago has a particularly strong pedigree in this respect. The small student/faculty ratio and the focus on interaction with faculty members are staples of the Chicago LL.M. and I think you might regret passing up on the opportunity.
Also, I would definitely contact Dean Badger about financial aid, as my understanding is that UChicago can adapt tuition on the basis of personal circumstances.
Best of luck in deciding!
Hi,
I would definitely go to Chicago. My two cents are I don't think tuition is ever wasted on a top 4-5 law school and having attended an elite school will follow you your entire career. I'd say the case for attending is even stronger in your situation, as you're destined for academia and Chicago has a particularly strong pedigree in this respect. The small student/faculty ratio and the focus on interaction with faculty members are staples of the Chicago LL.M. and I think you might regret passing up on the opportunity.
Also, I would definitely contact Dean Badger about financial aid, as my understanding is that UChicago can adapt tuition on the basis of personal circumstances.
Best of luck in deciding!
quote
Hi,
I would definitely go to Chicago. My two cents are I don't think tuition is ever wasted on a top 4-5 law school and having attended an elite school will follow you your entire career. I'd say the case for attending is even stronger in your situation, as you're destined for academia and Chicago has a particularly strong pedigree in this respect. The small student/faculty ratio and the focus on interaction with faculty members are staples of the Chicago LL.M. and I think you might regret passing up on the opportunity.
Also, I would definitely contact Dean Badger about financial aid, as my understanding is that UChicago can adapt tuition on the basis of personal circumstances.
Best of luck in deciding!


Thanks for these thoughts. Very helpful. That is interesting re financial aid. I submitted my official financial aid application--is that what you mean?
[quote]Hi,
I would definitely go to Chicago. My two cents are I don't think tuition is ever wasted on a top 4-5 law school and having attended an elite school will follow you your entire career. I'd say the case for attending is even stronger in your situation, as you're destined for academia and Chicago has a particularly strong pedigree in this respect. The small student/faculty ratio and the focus on interaction with faculty members are staples of the Chicago LL.M. and I think you might regret passing up on the opportunity.
Also, I would definitely contact Dean Badger about financial aid, as my understanding is that UChicago can adapt tuition on the basis of personal circumstances.
Best of luck in deciding!
[/quote]

Thanks for these thoughts. Very helpful. That is interesting re financial aid. I submitted my official financial aid application--is that what you mean?
quote
Hi,
I would definitely go to Chicago. My two cents are I don't think tuition is ever wasted on a top 4-5 law school and having attended an elite school will follow you your entire career. I'd say the case for attending is even stronger in your situation, as you're destined for academia and Chicago has a particularly strong pedigree in this respect. The small student/faculty ratio and the focus on interaction with faculty members are staples of the Chicago LL.M. and I think you might regret passing up on the opportunity.
Also, I would definitely contact Dean Badger about financial aid, as my understanding is that UChicago can adapt tuition on the basis of personal circumstances.
Best of luck in deciding!


Thanks for these thoughts. Very helpful. That is interesting re financial aid. I submitted my official financial aid application--is that what you mean?


Hi Harvey Birdman! Did you get that thing I sent you?

What an enviable position you are in! Congratulations!

I will try to play the devil's advocate to Mustacho here just to help you think it through.

Tuition costs at the top 5 are extremely high- basically extortion for international applicants.
In preparing for my applications I was told by my professors and colleagues not to accept if I did not receive enough financial aid to be debt free by the end of the year (taking into account I would take up on-campus jobs to pay part of the way). Even if declining meant I had to wait a year and apply again.

This is especially good advice if you want to pursue a doctoral degree and need to invest even more time and resources in academia and cannot immediately go into industry to pay off any debt.

The branding and prestige of Chicago is an important factor for many- but is it really worth going into debt into? More than a few friends of mine have finished their masters at Harvard and then regretted attending without financial aid because it restricted their employment choices after graduation and put them in harrowing debt.

As far as small class sizes go- That should be taken with a pinch of salt IMHO especially because you will be in classes with JD students as well and the class size is not limited to LLM students. This isn't even mitigated because unlike say- Harvard or NYU- Chicago is not a really big university with hundreds of courses that would spread the students out to some extent.

If you think you could get the same kind of education, or make the same case for a doctoral degree after attending U of T/ any other comparable university where you get financial aid and scholarship, you should do the smart thing take it up, do really well there- and then apply for doctoral programmes where you can get funded.

Having said that- this is both a pleasant and difficult question for anyone to face and I hope you end up liking your choices!
[quote][quote]Hi,
I would definitely go to Chicago. My two cents are I don't think tuition is ever wasted on a top 4-5 law school and having attended an elite school will follow you your entire career. I'd say the case for attending is even stronger in your situation, as you're destined for academia and Chicago has a particularly strong pedigree in this respect. The small student/faculty ratio and the focus on interaction with faculty members are staples of the Chicago LL.M. and I think you might regret passing up on the opportunity.
Also, I would definitely contact Dean Badger about financial aid, as my understanding is that UChicago can adapt tuition on the basis of personal circumstances.
Best of luck in deciding!
[/quote]

Thanks for these thoughts. Very helpful. That is interesting re financial aid. I submitted my official financial aid application--is that what you mean?[/quote]

Hi Harvey Birdman! Did you get that thing I sent you?

What an enviable position you are in! Congratulations!

I will try to play the devil's advocate to Mustacho here just to help you think it through.

Tuition costs at the top 5 are extremely high- basically extortion for international applicants.
In preparing for my applications I was told by my professors and colleagues not to accept if I did not receive enough financial aid to be debt free by the end of the year (taking into account I would take up on-campus jobs to pay part of the way). Even if declining meant I had to wait a year and apply again.

This is especially good advice if you want to pursue a doctoral degree and need to invest even more time and resources in academia and cannot immediately go into industry to pay off any debt.

The branding and prestige of Chicago is an important factor for many- but is it really worth going into debt into? More than a few friends of mine have finished their masters at Harvard and then regretted attending without financial aid because it restricted their employment choices after graduation and put them in harrowing debt.

As far as small class sizes go- That should be taken with a pinch of salt IMHO especially because you will be in classes with JD students as well and the class size is not limited to LLM students. This isn't even mitigated because unlike say- Harvard or NYU- Chicago is not a really big university with hundreds of courses that would spread the students out to some extent.

If you think you could get the same kind of education, or make the same case for a doctoral degree after attending U of T/ any other comparable university where you get financial aid and scholarship, you should do the smart thing take it up, do really well there- and then apply for doctoral programmes where you can get funded.

Having said that- this is both a pleasant and difficult question for anyone to face and I hope you end up liking your choices!
quote
Hi,
I would definitely go to Chicago. My two cents are I don't think tuition is ever wasted on a top 4-5 law school and having attended an elite school will follow you your entire career. I'd say the case for attending is even stronger in your situation, as you're destined for academia and Chicago has a particularly strong pedigree in this respect. The small student/faculty ratio and the focus on interaction with faculty members are staples of the Chicago LL.M. and I think you might regret passing up on the opportunity.
Also, I would definitely contact Dean Badger about financial aid, as my understanding is that UChicago can adapt tuition on the basis of personal circumstances.
Best of luck in deciding!


Thanks for these thoughts. Very helpful. That is interesting re financial aid. I submitted my official financial aid application--is that what you mean?


Hi Harvey Birdman! Did you get that thing I sent you?

What an enviable position you are in! Congratulations!

I will try to play the devil's advocate to Mustacho here just to help you think it through.

Tuition costs at the top 5 are extremely high- basically extortion for international applicants.
In preparing for my applications I was told by my professors and colleagues not to accept if I did not receive enough financial aid to be debt free by the end of the year (taking into account I would take up on-campus jobs to pay part of the way). Even if declining meant I had to wait a year and apply again.

This is especially good advice if you want to pursue a doctoral degree and need to invest even more time and resources in academia and cannot immediately go into industry to pay off any debt.

The branding and prestige of Chicago is an important factor for many- but is it really worth going into debt into? More than a few friends of mine have finished their masters at Harvard and then regretted attending without financial aid because it restricted their employment choices after graduation and put them in harrowing debt.

As far as small class sizes go- That should be taken with a pinch of salt IMHO especially because you will be in classes with JD students as well and the class size is not limited to LLM students. This isn't even mitigated because unlike say- Harvard or NYU- Chicago is not a really big university with hundreds of courses that would spread the students out to some extent.

If you think you could get the same kind of education, or make the same case for a doctoral degree after attending U of T/ any other comparable university where you get financial aid and scholarship, you should do the smart thing take it up, do really well there- and then apply for doctoral programmes where you can get funded.

Having said that- this is both a pleasant and difficult question for anyone to face and I hope you end up liking your choices!


Thank you for these thoughts! I didn't get what you sent, actually!

I have since been accepted to NYU. I should say that while I am thinking of doing doctorate work, I suspect I will practice first for a few year sin order to pay down debt and get practice experience. To me, this mitigates the financial burden.
[quote][quote][quote]Hi,
I would definitely go to Chicago. My two cents are I don't think tuition is ever wasted on a top 4-5 law school and having attended an elite school will follow you your entire career. I'd say the case for attending is even stronger in your situation, as you're destined for academia and Chicago has a particularly strong pedigree in this respect. The small student/faculty ratio and the focus on interaction with faculty members are staples of the Chicago LL.M. and I think you might regret passing up on the opportunity.
Also, I would definitely contact Dean Badger about financial aid, as my understanding is that UChicago can adapt tuition on the basis of personal circumstances.
Best of luck in deciding!
[/quote]

Thanks for these thoughts. Very helpful. That is interesting re financial aid. I submitted my official financial aid application--is that what you mean?[/quote]

Hi Harvey Birdman! Did you get that thing I sent you?

What an enviable position you are in! Congratulations!

I will try to play the devil's advocate to Mustacho here just to help you think it through.

Tuition costs at the top 5 are extremely high- basically extortion for international applicants.
In preparing for my applications I was told by my professors and colleagues not to accept if I did not receive enough financial aid to be debt free by the end of the year (taking into account I would take up on-campus jobs to pay part of the way). Even if declining meant I had to wait a year and apply again.

This is especially good advice if you want to pursue a doctoral degree and need to invest even more time and resources in academia and cannot immediately go into industry to pay off any debt.

The branding and prestige of Chicago is an important factor for many- but is it really worth going into debt into? More than a few friends of mine have finished their masters at Harvard and then regretted attending without financial aid because it restricted their employment choices after graduation and put them in harrowing debt.

As far as small class sizes go- That should be taken with a pinch of salt IMHO especially because you will be in classes with JD students as well and the class size is not limited to LLM students. This isn't even mitigated because unlike say- Harvard or NYU- Chicago is not a really big university with hundreds of courses that would spread the students out to some extent.

If you think you could get the same kind of education, or make the same case for a doctoral degree after attending U of T/ any other comparable university where you get financial aid and scholarship, you should do the smart thing take it up, do really well there- and then apply for doctoral programmes where you can get funded.

Having said that- this is both a pleasant and difficult question for anyone to face and I hope you end up liking your choices![/quote]

Thank you for these thoughts! I didn't get what you sent, actually!

I have since been accepted to NYU. I should say that while I am thinking of doing doctorate work, I suspect I will practice first for a few year sin order to pay down debt and get practice experience. To me, this mitigates the financial burden.
quote


Thanks for these thoughts. Very helpful. That is interesting re financial aid. I submitted my official financial aid application--is that what you mean?


Hi Harvey Birdman! Did you get that thing I sent you?

What an enviable position you are in! Congratulations!

I will try to play the devil's advocate to Mustacho here just to help you think it through.

Tuition costs at the top 5 are extremely high- basically extortion for international applicants.
In preparing for my applications I was told by my professors and colleagues not to accept if I did not receive enough financial aid to be debt free by the end of the year (taking into account I would take up on-campus jobs to pay part of the way). Even if declining meant I had to wait a year and apply again.

This is especially good advice if you want to pursue a doctoral degree and need to invest even more time and resources in academia and cannot immediately go into industry to pay off any debt.

The branding and prestige of Chicago is an important factor for many- but is it really worth going into debt into? More than a few friends of mine have finished their masters at Harvard and then regretted attending without financial aid because it restricted their employment choices after graduation and put them in harrowing debt.

As far as small class sizes go- That should be taken with a pinch of salt IMHO especially because you will be in classes with JD students as well and the class size is not limited to LLM students. This isn't even mitigated because unlike say- Harvard or NYU- Chicago is not a really big university with hundreds of courses that would spread the students out to some extent.

If you think you could get the same kind of education, or make the same case for a doctoral degree after attending U of T/ any other comparable university where you get financial aid and scholarship, you should do the smart thing take it up, do really well there- and then apply for doctoral programmes where you can get funded.

Having said that- this is both a pleasant and difficult question for anyone to face and I hope you end up liking your choices!


Thank you for these thoughts! I didn't get what you sent, actually!

I have since been accepted to NYU. I should say that while I am thinking of doing doctorate work, I suspect I will practice first for a few year sin order to pay down debt and get practice experience. To me, this mitigates the financial burden.


*starts wailing because you're wondering if I ever sent that thing*

FWIW I think NYU Legal Theory is really your best bet for a small class and and sustained interaction with faculty- You're basically guaranteed to be in a small class atleast for the seminar. I would take that up if finances were not a major concern. Good luck!
[quote][quote][quote][quote]Hi,
I would definitely go to Chicago. My two cents are I don't think tuition is ever wasted on a top 4-5 law school and having attended an elite school will follow you your entire career. I'd say the case for attending is even stronger in your situation, as you're destined for academia and Chicago has a particularly strong pedigree in this respect. The small student/faculty ratio and the focus on interaction with faculty members are staples of the Chicago LL.M. and I think you might regret passing up on the opportunity.
Also, I would definitely contact Dean Badger about financial aid, as my understanding is that UChicago can adapt tuition on the basis of personal circumstances.
Best of luck in deciding!
[/quote]

Thanks for these thoughts. Very helpful. That is interesting re financial aid. I submitted my official financial aid application--is that what you mean?[/quote]

Hi Harvey Birdman! Did you get that thing I sent you?

What an enviable position you are in! Congratulations!

I will try to play the devil's advocate to Mustacho here just to help you think it through.

Tuition costs at the top 5 are extremely high- basically extortion for international applicants.
In preparing for my applications I was told by my professors and colleagues not to accept if I did not receive enough financial aid to be debt free by the end of the year (taking into account I would take up on-campus jobs to pay part of the way). Even if declining meant I had to wait a year and apply again.

This is especially good advice if you want to pursue a doctoral degree and need to invest even more time and resources in academia and cannot immediately go into industry to pay off any debt.

The branding and prestige of Chicago is an important factor for many- but is it really worth going into debt into? More than a few friends of mine have finished their masters at Harvard and then regretted attending without financial aid because it restricted their employment choices after graduation and put them in harrowing debt.

As far as small class sizes go- That should be taken with a pinch of salt IMHO especially because you will be in classes with JD students as well and the class size is not limited to LLM students. This isn't even mitigated because unlike say- Harvard or NYU- Chicago is not a really big university with hundreds of courses that would spread the students out to some extent.

If you think you could get the same kind of education, or make the same case for a doctoral degree after attending U of T/ any other comparable university where you get financial aid and scholarship, you should do the smart thing take it up, do really well there- and then apply for doctoral programmes where you can get funded.

Having said that- this is both a pleasant and difficult question for anyone to face and I hope you end up liking your choices![/quote]

Thank you for these thoughts! I didn't get what you sent, actually!

I have since been accepted to NYU. I should say that while I am thinking of doing doctorate work, I suspect I will practice first for a few year sin order to pay down debt and get practice experience. To me, this mitigates the financial burden.[/quote]

*starts wailing because you're wondering if I ever sent that thing*

FWIW I think NYU Legal Theory is really your best bet for a small class and and sustained interaction with faculty- You're basically guaranteed to be in a small class atleast for the seminar. I would take that up if finances were not a major concern. Good luck!
quote
Mustacho
@Harvey, yes I mean the official financial aid application

@Nervousnelly, I wasn't referring to class size but to the low student/faculty ratio in my initial post, which is particularly valuable for aspiring academics. Chicago has both small LL.M. and J.D. classes, but it also has one of the largest faculties in proportion to the size of its student body.
@Harvey, yes I mean the official financial aid application

@Nervousnelly, I wasn't referring to class size but to the low student/faculty ratio in my initial post, which is particularly valuable for aspiring academics. Chicago has both small LL.M. and J.D. classes, but it also has one of the largest faculties in proportion to the size of its student body.
quote

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