UZH is simply not a good university

33 5

Posted Dec 06, 2021 13:23

As somebody who is currently pursuing a Master of Law degree at the University of Zurich, I would recommend that all prospective law students think twice before selecting UZH.

I would especially suggest that you do NOT go to UZH if:

1) You are neither a German speaker nor a German language student. As of Autumn 2021, this cannot be considered a bilingual university. Every now and then you will find untranslated information on the IT services;

2) You are used to university buildings and libraries offering fee-paying students a good number of workstations with up-to-date computers and a relatively peaceful and spacious environment;

3) You believe a faculty of law should come with its own campus rather than being a collection of inconspicuous buildings that are somewhat close to each other without actually sharing an address;

4) When having a look at their official website, you think there is something wrong with it looking like a Wordpad file, almost completely devoid of images and modern web design;

5) You are unsettled by the idea of a high cost of life which is not necessarily compensated by an above-average quality of life. Switzerland is not the land of bargains, no matter the context;

6) You think there is something wrong with staff asking for feedback for their courses before exams have taken the place, but not after;

7) You think that in 2021, a university should have a unified student portal offering at once information about the courses, the procedure to sign up for them and the relevant material for students who have signed up (currently, these three types of content are handled by three different websites).

I would not be able to tell you whether all public universities in Switzerland are similarly disappointing. What I do know is that my opinion of this country has been severely impacted by my negative experience with this university. The only silver lining is that I now understand how good the quality of my previous studies was in comparison.

[Edited by Carlyle95 on Dec 06, 2021]

As somebody who is currently pursuing a Master of Law degree at the University of Zurich, I would recommend that all prospective law students think twice before selecting UZH.<br><br>
I would especially suggest that you do NOT go to UZH if:<br><br>
1) You are neither a German speaker nor a German language student. As of Autumn 2021, this cannot be considered a bilingual university. Every now and then you will find untranslated information on the IT services;<br><br>
2) You are used to university buildings and libraries offering fee-paying students a good number of workstations with up-to-date computers and a relatively peaceful and spacious environment;<br><br>
3) You believe a faculty of law should come with its own campus rather than being a collection of inconspicuous buildings that are somewhat close to each other without actually sharing an address;<br><br>
4) When having a look at their official website, you think there is something wrong with it looking like a Wordpad file, almost completely devoid of images and modern web design;<br><br>
5) You are unsettled by the idea of a high cost of life which is not necessarily compensated by an above-average quality of life. Switzerland is not the land of bargains, no matter the context;<br><br>
6) You think there is something wrong with staff asking for feedback for their courses before exams have taken the place, but not after;<br><br>
7) You think that in 2021, a university should have a unified student portal offering at once information about the courses, the procedure to sign up for them and the relevant material for students who have signed up (currently, these three types of content are handled by three different websites).<br><br>
I would not be able to tell you whether all public universities in Switzerland are similarly disappointing. What I do know is that my opinion of this country has been severely impacted by my negative experience with this university. The only silver lining is that I now understand how good the quality of my previous studies was in comparison.

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Carlyle95

33 5

Posted May 04, 2022 11:42

Just in case you assumed that my review was based on the spurt of the moment, I would like to stress that I stand by everything I said a few months ago.
While I am at it, I would like to add that:

1) There is no specific place where to find details on oral exams, and guidelines for written exams are often drafted imprecisely and interpreted in a paranoid way. E.g., *underlining* words in permitted text aids may be allowed in a specific exam, but *circling* words could still qualify as cheating, even if the guidelines say that "markings" are allowed. I wish I were making this up.

2) There is, similarly, virtually no publicly available information on what happens should you fail any exam. The reasons for this lack of transparency are beyond me.

3) A student writing their thesis on an individual basis gets virtually no supervision from their so-called supervisor, only the outline and the final version are reviewed. It is very rare for students to interact directly with professors, as normally you speak to them through their assistants. I have every reason to believe that this custom contributes to the formation of an ivory-tower mentality, which is in turn reflected in the way modules, exams and thesis tracks are organised by said professors.

4) If you have any issue at all with the way your thesis was reviewed (and there are bound to be some when a single professor is in charge of correcting it) you have absolutely no appeal or feedback mechanism, no matter how many unclear, ambiguous, plainly wrong or goofy-sounding remarks your final evaluation report contains. Writing this comment on LLM-Guide.com (or on a Facebook student group, or in a WhatsApp group chat) is the closest thing to a post-evaluation feedback mechanism that I have as a degree-seeking student at UZH. Let that sink in

5) In most written exams, students are supposed to print out their own exam sheets or they cannot take the test. Where exactly is that one billion and a half of Swiss Francs that, according to Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Zurich ) UZH formally receives as funding? Between the missing exam paper, the web design that would have looked outdated in 2008, the scarcity of decent computer workstations and a few more details, I am pretty much compelled to believe that there is some embezzlement at play here

[Edited by Carlyle95 on Jun 29, 2022]

Just in case you assumed that my review was based on the spurt of the moment, I would like to stress that I stand by everything I said a few months ago.<br>While I am at it, I would like to add that:<br><br>1) There is no specific place where to find details on oral exams, and guidelines for written exams are often drafted imprecisely and interpreted in a paranoid way. E.g., *underlining* words in permitted text aids may be allowed in a specific exam, but *circling* words could still qualify as cheating, even if the guidelines say that "markings" are allowed. I wish I were making this up. <br><br>2) There is, similarly, virtually no publicly available information on what happens should you fail any exam. The reasons for this lack of transparency are beyond me.<br><br>3) A student writing their thesis on an individual basis gets virtually no supervision from their so-called supervisor, only the outline and the final version are reviewed. It is very rare for students to interact directly with professors, as normally you speak to them through their assistants. I have every reason to believe that this custom contributes to the formation of an ivory-tower mentality, which is in turn reflected in the way modules, exams and thesis tracks are organised by said professors.<br><br>4) If you have any issue at all with the way your thesis was reviewed (and there are bound to be some when a single professor is in charge of correcting it) you have absolutely no appeal or feedback mechanism, no matter how many unclear, ambiguous, plainly wrong or goofy-sounding remarks your final evaluation report contains. Writing this comment on LLM-Guide.com (or on a Facebook student group, or in a WhatsApp group chat) is the closest thing to a post-evaluation feedback mechanism that I have as a degree-seeking student at UZH. Let that sink in<br><br>5) In most written exams, students are supposed to print out their own exam sheets or they cannot take the test. Where exactly is that one billion and a half of Swiss Francs that, according to Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Zurich ) UZH formally receives as funding? Between the missing exam paper, the web design that would have looked outdated in 2008, the scarcity of decent computer workstations and a few more details, I am pretty much compelled to believe that there is some embezzlement at play here<br>

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Karl Seng

1 1

Posted Oct 22, 2022 17:42

I would like to ask you which LLM program did you take at UZH and what is the fees of it for international student?

[Edited by Karl Seng on Oct 22, 2022]

I would like to ask you which LLM program did you take at UZH and what is the fees of it for international student? 

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Carlyle95

33 5

Posted Oct 12, 2023 16:21

I would like to ask you which LLM program did you take at UZH and what is the fees of it for international student?

My apologies for the year-late reply, but in the name of the general interest, the fees are reported here: https://www.uzh.ch/en/studies/application/fees.html Non-domestic students pay a small surcharge which is effectively negligible. The real expenses you should worry about as a non-Swiss student in Switzerland are living expenses.

To ensure that I won't be identified, I would rather not point out what programme I was enrolled in. I speak simply as a non-Swiss student who enrolled in an English-taught programme at UZH. And for the record, I did not drop out, in fact I would have graduated with a magna-cum-laude GPA had I had a slightly more reasonable and more communicative professor as my "supervisor" (the quotation marks are necessary because this professor certainly spent more time grading me than supervising me, which is not how it is supposed to work).

I will reiterate that you should probably pick another university (and country?) to get your graduate degree. As a rule of thumb, Northern European universities are better than Southern European universities (yes, Switzerland counts as Southern Europe in this axiom).

As a final remark, I have never come across an EFL lecturer during my studies at UZH. While it is fully understandable that your average lecturer is ESL, given that Switzerland is nowhere close to the Anglosphere, it would occasionally be refreshing to hear an EFL lecturer in a degree course that is fully English-taught, especially since a couple of ESL lecturers have thick accents.

[quote]I would like to ask you which LLM program did you take at UZH and what is the fees of it for international student?[/quote]<br>My apologies for the year-late reply, but in the name of the general interest, the fees are reported here: https://www.uzh.ch/en/studies/application/fees.html Non-domestic students pay a small surcharge which is effectively negligible. The real expenses you should worry about as a non-Swiss student in Switzerland are living expenses.<br><br>To ensure that I won't be identified, I would rather not point out what programme I was enrolled in. I speak simply as a non-Swiss student who enrolled in an English-taught programme at UZH. And for the record, I did not drop out, in fact I would have graduated with a magna-cum-laude GPA had I had a slightly more reasonable and more communicative professor as my "supervisor" (the quotation marks are necessary because this professor certainly spent more time grading me than supervising me, which is not how it is supposed to work).<br><br>I will reiterate that you should probably pick another university (and country?) to get your graduate degree. As a rule of thumb, Northern European universities are better than Southern European universities (yes, Switzerland counts as Southern Europe in this axiom).<br><br>As a final remark, I have never come across an EFL lecturer during my studies at UZH. While it is fully understandable that your average lecturer is ESL, given that Switzerland is nowhere close to the Anglosphere, it would occasionally be refreshing to hear an EFL lecturer in a degree course that is fully English-taught, especially since a couple of ESL lecturers have thick accents.<br>

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LuxPerpetu...

4 7

Posted Nov 10, 2023 17:02

I feel like OP simply lacks of the intellectual consistency and proficiency that are needed when you purse your degree at UZH. I do not want to offend OP by any means but it is definitely a very demanding place that requires a lot from its students. Not everything is at your disposal just on the spot and without any kind of personal engagement.

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Carlyle95

33 5

Posted Jan 12, 2024 19:55

I feel like OP simply lacks of the intellectual consistency and proficiency that are needed when you purse your degree at UZH. I do not want to offend OP by any means but it is definitely a very demanding place that requires a lot from its students. Not everything is at your disposal just on the spot and without any kind of personal engagement.

Dear LuxPerpetua,
if you are willing to re-read my last post, I have openly declared that I actually graduated from this university, so the public criticism I am engaging in with these posts runs against my immediate interest, given that it would make potential job givers less impressed with me having a degree from this university than they would otherwise be.

The sole point of these comments of mine is to inform people who come from outside Switzerland that they might find this specific public Swiss university rather underwhelming, if they are used to what I now consider to be objectively higher standards.

On top of that, I also declared that I came very close to graduating magna cum laude, meaning that I came out of UZH with an overall respectable GPA, which would have been even higher had it not been for shortcomings that I wouldn't ascribe to my own person.
Did you somehow miss this element while reading my posts?

I am not really sure what to make of the statement that UZH "requires a lot from its students", given that I have also studied at universities in Northern Europe, and if anything, I noticed a paucity of intellectual and emotional engagement in the Swiss educational model, as shown for example in the complete absence of seminars.
There is only this much information that students can obtain from lectures and self-study, and in my experience, the absence of seminars makes the whole teaching process less memorable, more reliant on pure memorisation, and rather distant from practical applications (students are supposed to enter the job market eventually).
To make an example, it seems to me that students are visibly less prone to ask thought-provoking questions in a lecture hall, as opposed to a seminar room, and in a purely theoretical discussion, as opposed to ones based upon specific issues.
Furthermore, is the university perhaps entitled to ask without giving? Are the students (people who pay to be there with their money, time and effort) not allowed to expect teaching services and educational facilities of the highest quality that is reasonably available?

Is it too much to expect online services to also be available in English, when a whole degree programme is openly advertised as being taught in that language?

Is it too much to offer students a sufficient number of study places at the university's libraries, even during peak periods? Is it too much to equip at least some of said places with up-to-date computers, given that not everybody has the habit of carrying their own laptop everywhere they go?

Is it too much to ask designated supervisors to check on a monthly basis a student's draft thesis, so that the latter does not make any mistakes that could be easily avoided with enough transparency regarding formal and substantial criteria?

I have no idea what you could possibly mean with "not everything is at your disposal just on the spot and without any kind of personal engagement" (what exactly is "personal engagement", what makes you think I did not exhibit it, what exactly do you think I demanded "just on the spot"), but your quick-paced and uncompromising dismissal of my position seems to indicate you have some pro-UZH bias.

You claim that you "do not want to offend" me, and yet your entire rebuttal consists in an ad hominem that fails to address any specific point of my criticism in its substance.
Are you sincere when you say that you do not wish to offend me, given that you are openly accusing me of lacking "intellectual consistency and proficiency"?

I have been reasonably open about my status, would you also be so kind to clarify whether you are a student, a prospective student, an alumnus or teaching staff?
I am sure you understand that it is important to be open about any possible conflicts of interest

[Edited by Carlyle95 on Jan 12, 2024]

[quote]I feel like OP simply lacks of the intellectual consistency and proficiency that are needed when you purse your degree at UZH. I do not want to offend OP by any means but it is definitely a very demanding place that requires a lot from its students. Not everything is at your disposal just on the spot and without any kind of personal engagement. [/quote]
<div>Dear LuxPerpetua,
</div><div>if you are willing to re-read my last post, I have openly declared that I actually graduated from this university, so the public criticism I am engaging in with these posts runs against my immediate interest, given that it would make potential job givers less impressed with me having a degree from this university than they would otherwise be.<br><br></div><div>The sole point of these comments of mine is to inform people who come from outside Switzerland that they might find this specific public Swiss university rather underwhelming, if they are used to what I now consider to be objectively higher standards.<br>
</div><div>On top of that, I also declared that I came very close to graduating magna cum laude, meaning that I came out of UZH with an overall respectable GPA, which would have been even higher had it not been for shortcomings that I wouldn't ascribe to my own person.
Did you somehow miss this element while reading my posts?<br>
I am not really sure what to make of the statement that UZH "requires a lot from its students", given that I have also studied at universities in Northern Europe, and if anything, I noticed a paucity of intellectual and emotional engagement in the Swiss educational model, as shown for example in the complete absence of seminars.
There is only this much information that students can obtain from lectures and self-study, and in my experience, the absence of seminars makes the whole teaching process less memorable, more reliant on pure memorisation, and rather distant from practical applications (students are supposed to enter the job market eventually).
To make an example, it seems to me that students are visibly less prone to ask thought-provoking questions in a lecture hall, as opposed to a seminar room, and in a purely theoretical discussion, as opposed to ones based upon specific issues.</div><div>
</div><div>Furthermore, is the university perhaps entitled to ask without giving? Are the students (people who pay to be there with their money, time and effort) not allowed to expect teaching services and educational facilities of the highest quality that is reasonably available?<br>
Is it too much to expect online services to also be available in English, when a whole degree programme is openly advertised as being taught in that language?<br>
Is it too much to offer students a sufficient number of study places at the university's libraries, even during peak periods? Is it too much to equip at least some of said places with up-to-date computers, given that not everybody has the habit of carrying their own laptop everywhere they go? <br>
Is it too much to ask designated supervisors to check on a monthly basis a student's draft thesis, so that the latter does not make any mistakes that could be easily avoided with enough transparency regarding formal and substantial criteria?
<br></div><div>I have no idea what you could possibly mean with "not everything is at your disposal just on the spot and without any kind of personal engagement" (what exactly is "personal engagement", what makes you think I did not exhibit it, what exactly do you think I demanded "just on the spot"), but your quick-paced and uncompromising dismissal of my position seems to indicate you have some pro-UZH bias.<br>
You claim that you "do not want to offend" me, and yet your entire rebuttal consists in an ad hominem that fails to address any specific point of my criticism in its substance.
Are you sincere when you say that you do not wish to offend me, given that you are openly accusing me of lacking "intellectual consistency and proficiency"?<br>
</div><div>I have been reasonably open about my status, would you also be so kind to clarify whether you are a student, a prospective student, an alumnus or teaching staff?
I am sure you understand that it is important to be open about any possible conflicts of interest</div>

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LuxPerpetu...

4 7

Posted Feb 12, 2024 23:13

Hi,

sorry if I disturbed you. At the same time I feel like you are unreasonably agitated. Let’s bullet this issue.

1) Do not try to impress me with your GPAs as if it was the only reason for carrying out the discussion. If I was agitated enough to show you the list of universities I graduated from and respective GPAs, you would be leant against the wall in surprise for sure;

2) Maybe for some of the ex-co-students asking thought-provoking questions was not appropriate because no one except you found them as such back then?

3) By stating that not everything is given to students just because of them being students I meant that you were supposed to be bold with your standalone pursuit for knowledge instead of aimlessly looking for a hand that was supposed to guide through the plain field with only a few minor trees standing in your almost straight way. It is really not that much;

4) I don’t want to dive into floccinaucinihilipilification but your thread seems to be a troll prompt. Please do not do it.

5) And yes. I graduated from UZH, also natively from one of the most prominent French universities and from T14 Ivy League uni as well.

Be humble and look for greatness in silence.

Hi,

<div>
</div><div>sorry if I disturbed you. At the same time I feel like you are unreasonably agitated. Let’s bullet this issue.

</div><div>
</div><div>1) Do not try to impress me with your GPAs as if it was the only reason for carrying out the discussion. If I was agitated enough to show you the list of universities I graduated from and respective GPAs, you would be leant against the wall in surprise for sure;

</div><div>
</div><div>2) Maybe for some of the ex-co-students asking thought-provoking questions was not appropriate because no one except you found them as such back then?

</div><div>
</div><div>3) By stating that not everything is given to students just because of them being students I meant that you were supposed to be bold with your standalone pursuit for knowledge instead of aimlessly looking for a hand that was supposed to guide through the plain field with only a few minor trees standing in your almost straight way. It is really not that much;

</div><div>
</div><div>4) I don’t want to dive into floccinaucinihilipilification but your thread seems to be a troll prompt. Please do not do it.

</div><div>
</div><div>5) And yes. I graduated from UZH, also natively from one of the most prominent French universities and from T14 Ivy League uni as well.

</div><div>
</div><div>Be humble and look for greatness in silence.</div>

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Carlyle95

33 5

Posted Feb 13, 2024 00:22

"Sorry if I disturbed you. At the same time I feel like you are unreasonably agitated."
Unreasonably? No. There are multiple reasons, and one of them is that you called me stupid in a roundabout way. "Lacking intellectual consistency and proficiency", was it?
Spare me that "Sorry", your reply as a whole makes it clear you are not actually sorry.

Now for the bullet points:

1) This is not a competition, although you clearly intend to portray it as such, on the basis of data you do not actually intend to disclose.
This is a thread on how underwhelming I found the educational environment at UZH after studying at 3 different universities abroad.
If you want to gaslight me into thinking the place is top tier, sorry, but I have actually been there. You may have better luck convincing people who have yet to visit it, I'll give you that.

2) What I meant was that teaching is conducted in a way that doesn't stimulate student involvement in any meaningful manner. Universities do not deserve unconditional devotion, their job is to properly educate students, and failure to do so should be noted. Why are you trying to make this about whatever questions I personally asked, i.e. engaging in an ad hominem? Seems to me like another sign of intellectual dishonesty.

3) "By stating that not everything is given to students just because of them being students I meant that you were supposed to be bold with your standalone pursuit for knowledge instead of aimlessly looking for a hand that was supposed to guide through the plain field with only a few minor trees standing in your almost straight way."
For your own good, take your head out of the clouds and cut the purple prose.
This is not a film and you are not supposed to read from a script.

4) Calling plain-language, detailed criticism outlined in posts that span more than 2 years "a troll prompt" just shows that you came here for the sole purpose of defending UZH, the idea that I may have a point about anything whatsoever is clearly inconceivable to your brain.

5) What did they teach you in all those universities you have been to? That you can flat-out dismiss sincere criticism in a couple of sentences and just sweep the dust under the carpet (see point 4)?
Me, I would rather bring up inconvenient truths then be bullied into pretending everything is alright; I do not care if that may cost me a few mean stares from other alumni who happen to prioritise social status and how fancy the word "UZH" will appear in their CVs.

As for that "be humble" tip, may I suggest you have a taste of your medicine before offering it to other people?

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LuxPerpetu...

4 7

Posted Feb 13, 2024 18:14

Carlyle, it was not my intention to offend you. I agree that the manner of addressing you may seem to be pretentious and like I said - I am sorry. Nonetheless, please refrain yourself from behaving passively aggressively.

1) I can compare Assas, Duke and UZH. From those three UZH is the least favorite of mine but it is not like there is some kind of a significant and material difference in terms of education quality. UTH indeed is the most rigorous when it comes to approaching its students, I would say it is harsh but definitely LSE-like which simply means the pattern - learn to take care of yourself,

2) Agree as for unconditional devotion which should not be recklessly granted but disagree as for failure in educating students. One more time, UZH treats you as an adult and to some extent it is the most demanding uni I have been to,

3) Liked the purple prose phrase, quite imaginative,

4) I do not want to defend UZH no matter what but to blame the university for things which are rather of personal inclination and expectations, it is beyond me. Your so-called detailed criticism is nothing more or less than a statement that UZH does not correspond to a university concept that has been wandering in your mind for some time. It is simply not fair to assess such an academic powerhouse in so personally leant categories,

5) Yeah, just call me a bad word, what is stopping you from doing so? And yes, I definitely think that you are supposed to humble yourself due to being too confident with your English-like approach. The world does not revolve around you and your education system. You have done three universities so far? Maybe it is high time you acknowledged that you should have done at least one which was/is reputed in the academic world?

Not sure where this discussion leads to but I would like to disembark.

All the best!

[Edited by LuxPerpetua on Feb 13, 2024]

Carlyle, it was not my intention to offend you. I agree that the manner of addressing you may seem to be pretentious and like I said - I am sorry. Nonetheless, please refrain yourself from behaving passively aggressively.<br><br><div>1) I can compare Assas, Duke and UZH. From those three UZH is the least favorite of mine but it is not like there is some kind of a significant and material difference in terms of education quality. UTH indeed is the most rigorous when it comes to approaching its students, I would say it is harsh but definitely LSE-like which simply means the pattern - learn to take care of yourself,<br></div><div><br>2) Agree as for unconditional devotion which should not be recklessly granted but disagree as for failure in educating students. One more time, UZH treats you as an adult and to some extent it is the most demanding uni I have been to,<br></div><div>
3) Liked the purple prose phrase, quite imaginative,<br></div><div>
4) I do not want to defend UZH no matter what but to blame the university for things which are rather of personal inclination and expectations, it is beyond me. Your so-called detailed criticism is nothing more or less than a statement that UZH does not correspond to a university concept that has been wandering in your mind for some time. It is simply not fair to assess such an academic powerhouse in so personally leant categories,<br></div><div>
5) Yeah, just call me a bad word, what is stopping you from doing so? And yes, I definitely think that you are supposed to humble yourself due to being too confident with your English-like approach. The world does not revolve around you and your education system. You have done three universities so far? Maybe it is high time you acknowledged that you should have done at least one which was/is reputed in the academic world?<br></div><div>
Not sure where this discussion leads to but I would like to disembark. <br></div><div><br>All the best!<br></div>

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Inactive User

-1.582 26

Posted Feb 13, 2024 18:47

I can't comment on who has a better understanding of UZH but I would just like to point out that both of you present eloquent prose and convincing arguments. Sounds like you're both good lawyers!

All the best!

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