Leiden-PIL


grisselle2...

My name is Grisselle Rodriguez, I'm Panamanian. I'm interested in the Master's Degree in Public International that Leiden University offers :
1. Master of Laws, specialisation Public International Law.
2. Master of Advanced Studies in Public International Law.
I was wondering if you could tell me the difference between both programme and if I can apply for the Master of Advanced Studies in Public International Law without working experience.
Thanks for your anticipated cooperation.

My name is Grisselle Rodriguez, I'm Panamanian. I'm interested in the Master's Degree in Public International that Leiden University offers :
1. Master of Laws, specialisation Public International Law.
2. Master of Advanced Studies in Public International Law.
I was wondering if you could tell me the difference between both programme and if I can apply for the Master of Advanced Studies in Public International Law without working experience.
Thanks for your anticipated cooperation.
quote

I've just started the regular masters in PIL. I assumed that I needed work experience in PIL to apply for the Advanced Programme but there are people in that program that don't seem to have that experience. Maybe ask the faculty about which program you think you should apply to.

I've just started the regular masters in PIL. I assumed that I needed work experience in PIL to apply for the Advanced Programme but there are people in that program that don't seem to have that experience. Maybe ask the faculty about which program you think you should apply to.
quote

i am also interested in doing masters in public international law. Is this university good for this? Are there other univiersities that would be worth having a look at ? public international/EU law?

thanks

i am also interested in doing masters in public international law. Is this university good for this? Are there other univiersities that would be worth having a look at ? public international/EU law?

thanks
quote
grisselle2...

Hi everyone!! Thank you Hathureliya!! I did what you suggested me and they told me that I should apply for the regular masters in PIL because the advanced is for people who have a previous Master degree. Arsenal3054, as far as I know, Leiden have an excellent programme for public international law. People in other treats said that is the best place for PIL in the Netherlands but I'm looking for other options.

Hi everyone!! Thank you Hathureliya!! I did what you suggested me and they told me that I should apply for the regular masters in PIL because the advanced is for people who have a previous Master degree. Arsenal3054, as far as I know, Leiden have an excellent programme for public international law. People in other treats said that is the best place for PIL in the Netherlands but I'm looking for other options.
quote
Alice18

Hi there

I had one question regarding the regular llm. Do you know whether it is possible or not to take extra options? Im really interested in learning more about PIL but i am bit worried about job prospects. i was thinking of studying international economic law as well and was interested in WtO law more specifically. Do you think it would be possible to add that to a normal PIL llm? or should I choose a completely different degree?

Hi there

I had one question regarding the regular llm. Do you know whether it is possible or not to take extra options? Im really interested in learning more about PIL but i am bit worried about job prospects. i was thinking of studying international economic law as well and was interested in WtO law more specifically. Do you think it would be possible to add that to a normal PIL llm? or should I choose a completely different degree?
quote

Hi. I'm currently taking the PIL programme at Leiden.

There is no scope to take extra classes beyond a choice between international relations and an introduction to EU law offered in the Autumn semester. Both of these classes are offered because there are compulsory classes for Dutch students which the international students (for language reasons etc) can't take. Therefore these two options are basically 'filler' courses and fall outside of the PIL programme (although the IR course was enjoyable enough).

I for one was *very* disappointed to come to Leiden and find that there were no options especially since schools like Amsterdam offer a diverse range of classes that can be taken. Saying that however if you are interested in gaining 'core' PIL knowledge the programme is solid, but at the same time, it seems a little conservative and narrow. There is an odd balance between the 10 credit and 5 credit courses with IR and EU law being 10 credits compared with International Criminal Law and International Dispute Settlement being 5 credit courses. This meant that IR was a significant focus of my first semester as compared with ICL and IDS when the latter two courses are what you would usually expect to focus upoin when taking a PIL programme!

The classes that are on offer are:

-Autumn Semester-
Public International Law (introduction)
International Relations / EU Law
International Criminal Law
International Dispute Settlement

-Spring Semester-
Advanced Issues in International Law
International Law in Practice
Law of International Organisations

-Summer-
Thesis

Hope this helps you in making up your mind!

Hi. I'm currently taking the PIL programme at Leiden.

There is no scope to take extra classes beyond a choice between international relations and an introduction to EU law offered in the Autumn semester. Both of these classes are offered because there are compulsory classes for Dutch students which the international students (for language reasons etc) can't take. Therefore these two options are basically 'filler' courses and fall outside of the PIL programme (although the IR course was enjoyable enough).

I for one was *very* disappointed to come to Leiden and find that there were no options especially since schools like Amsterdam offer a diverse range of classes that can be taken. Saying that however if you are interested in gaining 'core' PIL knowledge the programme is solid, but at the same time, it seems a little conservative and narrow. There is an odd balance between the 10 credit and 5 credit courses with IR and EU law being 10 credits compared with International Criminal Law and International Dispute Settlement being 5 credit courses. This meant that IR was a significant focus of my first semester as compared with ICL and IDS when the latter two courses are what you would usually expect to focus upoin when taking a PIL programme!

The classes that are on offer are:

-Autumn Semester-
Public International Law (introduction)
International Relations / EU Law
International Criminal Law
International Dispute Settlement

-Spring Semester-
Advanced Issues in International Law
International Law in Practice
Law of International Organisations

-Summer-
Thesis

Hope this helps you in making up your mind!
quote

Thank you for your comments.
You say you're disappointed with the PIL program due to the lack of options. However, we often hear it's an excellent one. Do you at least like the quality of the courses, or is it a general disappointment?

Thank you for your comments.
You say you're disappointed with the PIL program due to the lack of options. However, we often hear it's an excellent one. Do you at least like the quality of the courses, or is it a general disappointment?
quote

Thank you for your comments.
You say you're disappointed with the PIL program due to the lack of options. However, we often hear it's an excellent one. Do you at least like the quality of the courses, or is it a general disappointment?


I find it very hard to say as I have nothing to compare the programme against except my undergrad studies. I don't think the work-load or the assignments are overly challenging and its easy to get above-average grades although getting the highest grades is quite tough! One thing that has bothered me immensely and a lot of of my friends is the complete lack of feedback on written assignments and exams. While we don't expect one-on-one interaction with the lecturers (who for the most part I think are good) it would be nice to get papers back with a few scribbled comments on them. So far, after submitting around 15 written assignments I have received feedback on precisely one of them and that was about an IR paper so wasn't exactly an integral part of the PIL programme. As I said I don't expect too much, but here there is basically nothing coming back which makes it very hard to see where you're going wrong or what could be done to improve. On the flip-side I must say that my thesis supervisor seems to be very willing to get involved with my topic and meet with me so that's positive.

Another minor gripe is the law library which is in my opinion quite poorly stocked in PIL terms though of course the Peace Palace Library is only 40mins away and has everything you could ever need. I have a suspicion though that Leiden relys on this library so as not to have to buy many PIL books :/ There have also been numerous instances of books going missing as there is no 'off-print' system here: if there is one key book for an assignment then there is nothing to stop a Leiden student simply taking it. While many students complained about this during the year it is only now - with two-weeks to go and only one paper left to hand in - that steps appear to have been taken to find out who was responsible.

I don't mean to criticise the programme too heavily, and there are many many good things about it - most of the teaching is good, Leiden itself is great, the other students, the additional lecturers available etc.

There are quite a few Leiden students who lurk on this board so feel free to ask any more questions! We discuss the programme endlessly among ourselves so have lots to say here to I think!

<blockquote>Thank you for your comments.
You say you're disappointed with the PIL program due to the lack of options. However, we often hear it's an excellent one. Do you at least like the quality of the courses, or is it a general disappointment?</blockquote>

I find it very hard to say as I have nothing to compare the programme against except my undergrad studies. I don't think the work-load or the assignments are overly challenging and its easy to get above-average grades although getting the highest grades is quite tough! One thing that has bothered me immensely and a lot of of my friends is the complete lack of feedback on written assignments and exams. While we don't expect one-on-one interaction with the lecturers (who for the most part I think are good) it would be nice to get papers back with a few scribbled comments on them. So far, after submitting around 15 written assignments I have received feedback on precisely one of them and that was about an IR paper so wasn't exactly an integral part of the PIL programme. As I said I don't expect too much, but here there is basically nothing coming back which makes it very hard to see where you're going wrong or what could be done to improve. On the flip-side I must say that my thesis supervisor seems to be very willing to get involved with my topic and meet with me so that's positive.

Another minor gripe is the law library which is in my opinion quite poorly stocked in PIL terms though of course the Peace Palace Library is only 40mins away and has everything you could ever need. I have a suspicion though that Leiden relys on this library so as not to have to buy many PIL books :/ There have also been numerous instances of books going missing as there is no 'off-print' system here: if there is one key book for an assignment then there is nothing to stop a Leiden student simply taking it. While many students complained about this during the year it is only now - with two-weeks to go and only one paper left to hand in - that steps appear to have been taken to find out who was responsible.

I don't mean to criticise the programme too heavily, and there are many many good things about it - most of the teaching is good, Leiden itself is great, the other students, the additional lecturers available etc.

There are quite a few Leiden students who lurk on this board so feel free to ask any more questions! We discuss the programme endlessly among ourselves so have lots to say here to I think!
quote
paulnz

So this is why you haven't got any work done today!

I would concur with most of what hewhohuntselves has said.

The lack of feedback is a definite frustration, as is the inadequate library. I was a little surprised to find that the vast bulk of the teaching has been reserved for fairly junior members of the faculty. It seems the LL.M. (adv) course gets more senior/prominent lecturers. Anyone who is not eligible for the EU 'home fee' should definitely apply for the advanced masters, and disregard any advice saying you aren't eligible if you don't already have a masters degree as there are many students on that course who don't meet the stated requirements.

So this is why you haven't got any work done today!

I would concur with most of what hewhohuntselves has said.

The lack of feedback is a definite frustration, as is the inadequate library. I was a little surprised to find that the vast bulk of the teaching has been reserved for fairly junior members of the faculty. It seems the LL.M. (adv) course gets more senior/prominent lecturers. Anyone who is not eligible for the EU 'home fee' should definitely apply for the advanced masters, and disregard any advice saying you aren't eligible if you don't already have a masters degree as there are many students on that course who don't meet the stated requirements.
quote

How about the MAS?

I heard just good things about it!

Please confirmations...

Cheers,

Rafael

How about the MAS?

I heard just good things about it!

Please confirmations...

Cheers,

Rafael
quote
tttv^

I do agree with most of the criticism above.

However, personally, I find Leiden University library to be impressive. All the general classic books + all the periodical literature that you usually should not be able to find in online databases (such as BYIL and etc.) Of course, some books will always be missing when you have ~50 students working on the same topic, but it is not like it hampered any of the papers I have written. You can always go to the Peace Palace, but it has the same problem - loads of books are usually taken there as well.

General PIL course is very good in Leiden, the same thing with International Criminal Law, which, in my opinion, should get at least 5 more additional credits. Why they give 10 ECTS to International Relations is beyond my imagination. Perhaps they want to have something opposed to European Union Law.

Anyway, Leiden itself is a nice place, not too big, just the right spot for studying.

I do agree with most of the criticism above.

However, personally, I find Leiden University library to be impressive. All the general classic books + all the periodical literature that you usually should not be able to find in online databases (such as BYIL and etc.) Of course, some books will always be missing when you have ~50 students working on the same topic, but it is not like it hampered any of the papers I have written. You can always go to the Peace Palace, but it has the same problem - loads of books are usually taken there as well.

General PIL course is very good in Leiden, the same thing with International Criminal Law, which, in my opinion, should get at least 5 more additional credits. Why they give 10 ECTS to International Relations is beyond my imagination. Perhaps they want to have something opposed to European Union Law.

Anyway, Leiden itself is a nice place, not too big, just the right spot for studying.
quote

How about the MAS?

I heard just good things about it!

Please confirmations...

Cheers,

Rafael


No idea really as the regular and the advanced LLM students don't mix at all apart from taking one class together in the fall semester (international dispute settlement).

I also agree with tttv about Leiden itself - it's a superb place to study and well placed in The Netherlands. The cost of living in The Netherlands is also quite reasonable - cheaper than the UK, but a little bit more expensive than the US.

<blockquote>How about the MAS?

I heard just good things about it!

Please confirmations...

Cheers,

Rafael </blockquote>

No idea really as the regular and the advanced LLM students don't mix at all apart from taking one class together in the fall semester (international dispute settlement).

I also agree with tttv about Leiden itself - it's a superb place to study and well placed in The Netherlands. The cost of living in The Netherlands is also quite reasonable - cheaper than the UK, but a little bit more expensive than the US.
quote
Alice18

well thank you for all your comments, it is well appreciated
I'm a bit disappointed by the VERY limited list of options.. ive seen a few PIL masters with whole courses devoted to human rights or humanitarian law, peacekeeping and collective security. i guess these are incorporated in more general topics... I need to think seriously about this since i want to keep some doors open.
I read that some classes were taking place in The Hague. is it true? is it convenient? it must a very nice place to study as well but maybe it concerns only MAS students. i was surprised to read that there were no more subjects in common with them.

another question, the internship issue. i saw there were like 5 to 10 endorsment available but how many students are on this llm? and it doesnt secure you a place apparently. My question is then is it hard to find an internship without it? not necessarily in the ICJ or one of the tribunal but in other institutions maybe.
Is there any information available about what former students did after graduation?
and also can one think of more realistic job prospects? (except from teaching)



well thank you for all your comments, it is well appreciated
I'm a bit disappointed by the VERY limited list of options.. ive seen a few PIL masters with whole courses devoted to human rights or humanitarian law, peacekeeping and collective security. i guess these are incorporated in more general topics... I need to think seriously about this since i want to keep some doors open.
I read that some classes were taking place in The Hague. is it true? is it convenient? it must a very nice place to study as well but maybe it concerns only MAS students. i was surprised to read that there were no more subjects in common with them.

another question, the internship issue. i saw there were like 5 to 10 endorsment available but how many students are on this llm? and it doesnt secure you a place apparently. My question is then is it hard to find an internship without it? not necessarily in the ICJ or one of the tribunal but in other institutions maybe.
Is there any information available about what former students did after graduation?
and also can one think of more realistic job prospects? (except from teaching)
quote



well thank you for all your comments, it is well appreciated
I'm a bit disappointed by the VERY limited list of options.. ive seen a few PIL masters with whole courses devoted to human rights or humanitarian law, peacekeeping and collective security. i guess these are incorporated in more general topics... I need to think seriously about this since i want to keep some doors open.
I read that some classes were taking place in The Hague. is it true? is it convenient? it must a very nice place to study as well but maybe it concerns only MAS students. i was surprised to read that there were no more subjects in common with them.

another question, the internship issue. i saw there were like 5 to 10 endorsment available but how many students are on this llm? and it doesnt secure you a place apparently. My question is then is it hard to find an internship without it? not necessarily in the ICJ or one of the tribunal but in other institutions maybe.
Is there any information available about what former students did after graduation?
and also can one think of more realistic job prospects? (except from teaching)


To answer your questions before I go to bed, it's true that some classes are in The Hague: criminal law, dispute settlement, advanced issues and law in practice. It's quite convenient really as it's only a fifteen minute train right and a five minute walk away. Many people live in The Hague which with hindsight I think is a good option, but at the same time you're a little removed from the Leiden social-scene (such as it is). Saying that we're all pretty clueless as to why the classes are in The Hague - just to put it on the website perhaps... hehe.

I have no idea what former students did or about job prospects really as that's something people are getting into right now, but there are around 70 people on the programme (roughly) and there seems to have been no shortage of internship endorsements available for those of us who asked for them. However, a lot of them are with the international criminal tribunals which isn't what everyone's interested in, but it isn't hard to get one at all. They do seem to assign them somewhat at random - or with only a brief overview of your application - as all you need to submit is a CV and a *very* brief statement of preferences (which doesn't seem to matter so much). I don't think you can rely on getting into where you want to go, but if you want the ICTY you'll be in luck... There are of course other internships you can go for and the staff and leiden will give you an endorsement outside of the internship scheme as long as the internship you're applying for isn't part of the scheme. And yes, you're not guaranteed as you still have to be accepted by the institution.

Job prospects... well, you need experience which is the big problem for some of us who have come to Leiden straight out of our undergrad degrees! And for many places it helps to be a qualified lawyer and there's a big difference in how easy that is for each student in their respective home countries... Some people are qualified, some are not so that's a factor.

<blockquote>

well thank you for all your comments, it is well appreciated
I'm a bit disappointed by the VERY limited list of options.. ive seen a few PIL masters with whole courses devoted to human rights or humanitarian law, peacekeeping and collective security. i guess these are incorporated in more general topics... I need to think seriously about this since i want to keep some doors open.
I read that some classes were taking place in The Hague. is it true? is it convenient? it must a very nice place to study as well but maybe it concerns only MAS students. i was surprised to read that there were no more subjects in common with them.

another question, the internship issue. i saw there were like 5 to 10 endorsment available but how many students are on this llm? and it doesnt secure you a place apparently. My question is then is it hard to find an internship without it? not necessarily in the ICJ or one of the tribunal but in other institutions maybe.
Is there any information available about what former students did after graduation?
and also can one think of more realistic job prospects? (except from teaching) </blockquote>

To answer your questions before I go to bed, it's true that some classes are in The Hague: criminal law, dispute settlement, advanced issues and law in practice. It's quite convenient really as it's only a fifteen minute train right and a five minute walk away. Many people live in The Hague which with hindsight I think is a good option, but at the same time you're a little removed from the Leiden social-scene (such as it is). Saying that we're all pretty clueless as to why the classes are in The Hague - just to put it on the website perhaps... hehe.

I have no idea what former students did or about job prospects really as that's something people are getting into right now, but there are around 70 people on the programme (roughly) and there seems to have been no shortage of internship endorsements available for those of us who asked for them. However, a lot of them are with the international criminal tribunals which isn't what everyone's interested in, but it isn't hard to get one at all. They do seem to assign them somewhat at random - or with only a brief overview of your application - as all you need to submit is a CV and a *very* brief statement of preferences (which doesn't seem to matter so much). I don't think you can rely on getting into where you want to go, but if you want the ICTY you'll be in luck... There are of course other internships you can go for and the staff and leiden will give you an endorsement outside of the internship scheme as long as the internship you're applying for isn't part of the scheme. And yes, you're not guaranteed as you still have to be accepted by the institution.

Job prospects... well, you need experience which is the big problem for some of us who have come to Leiden straight out of our undergrad degrees! And for many places it helps to be a qualified lawyer and there's a big difference in how easy that is for each student in their respective home countries... Some people are qualified, some are not so that's a factor.
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