Hi,
Are there any people here who got admitted and are enrolling in the advanced LLM in Leiden?

I am going fot the PIL international criminal law, and would love to get to know some people I might meet next year.

Well the reviews of the program here were not very good as well, so I would like some reassurance too, that I am not going to be the only one coming.
:-)
Have a great day everyone!
Tania

Be warned of the bad career perspectives of the program. This article is a good reflection of the post-masters life in int. crim law:

http://hagueinternsassociation.org/2013/05/04/intern-views-enjoy-it-while-it-lasts-but-dont-expect-a-thank-you/

Hi,
Are there any people here who got admitted and are enrolling in the advanced LLM in Leiden?

I am going fot the PIL international criminal law, and would love to get to know some people I might meet next year.

Well the reviews of the program here were not very good as well, so I would like some reassurance too, that I am not going to be the only one coming.
:-)
Have a great day everyone!
Tania

However, I'm not sure about Agentsmith's observation on career prospects. The thing is, an LL.M is first and foremost, an academic qualification! A recognized LL.M could open up career prospects, but it does not necessarily mean that the programme has to be 'professionally' oriented.

@ Asian, obviously you like burning money. Not everyone is rich, so as an alumni I have a duty to educate and inform people, so they don't make the same mistakes as I did. An academic qualification is not something you hang on the wall, it's supposed to get you to places. If it's so good and recognized how come 25 out of 30 people of last year's class are either unemployed or doing unpaid internships?

Well, that's where you go wrong! a good degree will guarantee you a solid academic education. It won't guarantee you a job. At the end of the day, Leiden is a 'research university', not a job agency! simple as that. One cannot blame the university, if the graduates are unemployed after the LL.M, bcoz providing a job was never a part of the deal.

The issue, however, lies with the field of PIL. The fact is pretty much everyone wants to get into an international institution after a masters in PIL, and the sad reality is that the vacancies are limited while intl Crim Justice as a field is shrinking. But this is not the fault of the university.

I understand that it is very difficult to get into an international institution, but I also know quite a few people in ICC, ICTY, etc. who has got an LL.M from Leiden, Utrecht, etc. Surely, their degrees helped them in getting into these institutions?

The bottom line is that, Leiden is a reputed research university, but not a job agency. At the end of the day, I think it's unrealistic to expect the university to guarantee employment, although where you get your degree may help to get a job.

I think the point here is whether universities should be offering a degree with shrinking career prospects at all. Like Asian says, a research university, or any masters programme structured around theory isn't expected to guarantee a job, and it has very little to do with the quality of the programme and everything to do with the content itself. But as agentsmith says, the university should duly warn students about career prospects, and at the least have a career cell or programme that will assist in overcoming entry obstacles, and perhaps encourage Phd positions if further research will help. The field is immensely interesting academically, perhaps why it draws so many applicants worldwide, and the consequent dearth of jobs. But then the programme should also try to equip its students to use the knowledge profitably. Else, it's not just a debt for students, it's basically a waste of time of the university as well if it's graduates are unable to use their qualification.

@ Asian, obviously you like burning money. Not everyone is rich, so as an alumni I have a duty to educate and inform people, so they don't make the same mistakes as I did. An academic qualification is not something you hang on the wall, it's supposed to get you to places. If it's so good and recognized how come 25 out of 30 people of last year's class are either unemployed or doing unpaid internships?


@AgentSmith, first of all thank you for your notions and explanations, you obviously were spending thought and time on educating and advising people like me.
Though I have to mention I do not agree with you, regarding the duty of a program to provide you with work.
You see, I am an intern (soon to be a lawyer) in Israel, we have 50k lawyer currently practicing (or try to) for a population less than 8 millions. even graduates of the best University do not expect anyone to provide them with an internship and for sure not a job.
You see that is part of employment market, to know how to get a job (and the fact is that 5/30 in your case found one, thats great for less than a year after school). I would count the interns as well.
And it is not about being rich either and spending money and time on something useful. I don't think PIL is for people who expect to be rich anyways. That's why you have tax law and corporate law.

Furthermore, I can't wait to start my studies in this respectful university!

But if anyone here has more tips to share, about life in Leiden (and in the faculty), I am sure everyone would be more than happy to hear.

Best, Tania

I will be enrolling in the advanced LLM - PIL to start in February 2014. I'm wondering if there is any one here who has not yet sorted out housing and accommodation, as the housing quotes on the university website seem to be really expensive!

@AgentSmith, first of all thank you for your notions and explanations, you obviously were spending thought and time on educating and advising people like me.
Though I have to mention I do not agree with you, regarding the duty of a program to provide you with work.
You see, I am an intern (soon to be a lawyer) in Israel, we have 50k lawyer currently practicing (or try to) for a population less than 8 millions. even graduates of the best University do not expect anyone to provide them with an internship and for sure not a job.

You see that is part of employment market, to know how to get a job (and the fact is that 5/30 in your case found one, thats great for less than a year after school). I would count the interns as well.
And it is not about being rich either and spending money and time on something useful. I don't think PIL is for people who expect to be rich anyways. That's why you have tax law and corporate law.

Furthermore, I can't wait to start my studies in this respectful university!

But if anyone here has more tips to share, about life in Leiden (and in the faculty), I am sure everyone would be more than happy to hear.

Best, Tania

@Tania and Asian. First, I never said that the university is a temp agency. But it should be actively endorsing students for jobs, which is not something they do aside from writing recommendation letters.

Second, internships do not count as work experience in the UN system. So, try to understand the hypocrisy here, you study international law, bc most likely you want to work for the UN, but when you apply for an actual job at the UN, they do not count that as work experience. Is there someone at Leiden that will tell you that?

Why does Leiden have to tell you that an internship does not amount to work experience?! Leiden is not affiliated to the UN or has no obligation to provide career opportunities. It is expected that by the time you come to study at master's level, you would know something about the job market and your career prospects. Also, if someone is interested in joining the UN, it is commonsense to visit their websites and get some info on the opportunities available. If one has done that, they would know that an internship does not amount to 'work experience'. Leiden does not have to educate you on the obvious.

Also, Leiden has no obligation to provide endorsements. It is not even bound to provide recommendations, although it is advantageous if they do so (and Leiden does so, according to Agentsmith).

I think Agentsmith's criticisms would have held ground if they were based on the academic standards of the programme or its professors, rather than a student's life after the completion of the programme.

Hello Tania and Asian,
This is Charlot, I have been admitted to the advanced LLM in European and International Business Law. See one of you is starting on February the other LLM, how can I know if I can too?I have already asked to the university, but they are really busy. I see the university prices for housing too expensive and I would like to search for a house with other people.

This is my private mail if you want to get in contact with me:

mgarciatgr@gmail.com

Thank you!