UK CPE+BVC route to NY Bar exams


alylxz
Hi guys

I'm strugging to find information as to whether NY bar would allow CPE+BVC route.

I have found some useful information on: www.nybarexam.org/foreign.htm under the heading of 520.6(b)(2) Qualifying to Sit for Bar Exam based on Admission in an English Common Law Jurisdiction and Successful Completion of a Law School/Law Office Study Program.

Can anyone please help me? I'm confused and frustrated due of the limited information online!!

Liz
Hi guys

I'm strugging to find information as to whether NY bar would allow CPE+BVC route.

I have found some useful information on: www.nybarexam.org/foreign.htm under the heading of 520.6(b)(2) – Qualifying to Sit for Bar Exam based on Admission in an English Common Law Jurisdiction and Successful Completion of a Law School/Law Office Study Program.

Can anyone please help me? I'm confused and frustrated due of the limited information online!!

Liz
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susiee
I remember a uk solicitor mentioning that he couldn't sit the ny bar because he had done the cpe and lpc and apparently you need a thee-year law degree to be eligible for sitting the ny bar. I haven't read the rules but do they mention the length of the law degree?
I remember a uk solicitor mentioning that he couldn't sit the ny bar because he had done the cpe and lpc and apparently you need a thee-year law degree to be eligible for sitting the ny bar. I haven't read the rules but do they mention the length of the law degree?
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amateurr27
i have the same problem - i'm actually taking the llm course but am now being told that i might not qualify sit the ny exam b/c i didn't do a training contract (i did the CPE + LPC)?!!! please let me know if you've heard anything

thanks
amber
i have the same problem - i'm actually taking the llm course but am now being told that i might not qualify sit the ny exam b/c i didn't do a training contract (i did the CPE + LPC)?!!! please let me know if you've heard anything

thanks
amber
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Amber,

I am in exactly the same situation. I have the GDL + LPC + LLM. I am waiting to hear from NY regarding whether I will need to complete a training contract. Did the New York State Boar of Law Examiners tell you that you couldn't take the bar unless you trained? If so, have you appealed as yet?

I can tell you that in terms of CA, you will need to complete a training contract to qualify.

Please do let me know. Thanks.
Amber,

I am in exactly the same situation. I have the GDL + LPC + LLM. I am waiting to hear from NY regarding whether I will need to complete a training contract. Did the New York State Boar of Law Examiners tell you that you couldn't take the bar unless you trained? If so, have you appealed as yet?

I can tell you that in terms of CA, you will need to complete a training contract to qualify.

Please do let me know. Thanks.
quote
amateurr27
The director told my LLM coordinator that I would have to go back to the UK to complete my training contract. There are essentially two ways in which you can take the exam (which you may or may not already know) - by qualification (you would have to complete the training contract in the UK to be admitted to the Rolls) or education. If you're trying to go the education route (as I am trying to do) you have to fulfill the durational requirement and the 'substantive legal education' requirement. The LLM can be used in lieu of only one of the requirements. If you, as I suspect you will be, use it to fulfill the 'durational' requirement then you need two years of substantive legal education. That's the tricky part. The BOLE interprets the LPC as vocational or practical instead of academic. Of course, the phrase 'substantive legal education' is very vague. I'm going to argue that the LPC is indeed academic (I mean really, it's crazy to see it otherwise) and therefore, the CPE+LPC fulfills the two years of substantive legal education requirement as well. I need to submit the evaluation form, but I am waiting on a letter from Uni of Westminster detailing the LPC (hopefully, this will make my case stronger). If BOLE does not allow me to sit, yes, I will definitely appeal the decision.

sorry for the bad news. please let me know if you have any more questions or if you find out anything useful.
The director told my LLM coordinator that I would have to go back to the UK to complete my training contract. There are essentially two ways in which you can take the exam (which you may or may not already know) - by qualification (you would have to complete the training contract in the UK to be admitted to the Rolls) or education. If you're trying to go the education route (as I am trying to do) you have to fulfill the durational requirement and the 'substantive legal education' requirement. The LLM can be used in lieu of only one of the requirements. If you, as I suspect you will be, use it to fulfill the 'durational' requirement then you need two years of substantive legal education. That's the tricky part. The BOLE interprets the LPC as vocational or practical instead of academic. Of course, the phrase 'substantive legal education' is very vague. I'm going to argue that the LPC is indeed academic (I mean really, it's crazy to see it otherwise) and therefore, the CPE+LPC fulfills the two years of substantive legal education requirement as well. I need to submit the evaluation form, but I am waiting on a letter from Uni of Westminster detailing the LPC (hopefully, this will make my case stronger). If BOLE does not allow me to sit, yes, I will definitely appeal the decision.

sorry for the bad news. please let me know if you have any more questions or if you find out anything useful.
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My guess is you arent going to like BOLE's decision and your appeal is going to be easily turned down. Numerous people attempt to take the bar with your qualifications each year and I am guessing you will not be the first to appeal BOLE's decision. There is a reason the LPC is called the Legal PRACTICAL course, it is definitely more of a vocational program than an academic program. The LPC is not the same as an LLB and in BOLE's eyes there is an obvious difference between studying law as an undergraduate or taking a shorter program. Good luck trying but you will probably get rejected.

On another note, you have no one to blame for your situation besides yourself. You really should have done research on this before beginning your program. Don't blame BOLE for their standards, blame yourself for not doing research.
My guess is you arent going to like BOLE's decision and your appeal is going to be easily turned down. Numerous people attempt to take the bar with your qualifications each year and I am guessing you will not be the first to appeal BOLE's decision. There is a reason the LPC is called the Legal PRACTICAL course, it is definitely more of a vocational program than an academic program. The LPC is not the same as an LLB and in BOLE's eyes there is an obvious difference between studying law as an undergraduate or taking a shorter program. Good luck trying but you will probably get rejected.

On another note, you have no one to blame for your situation besides yourself. You really should have done research on this before beginning your program. Don't blame BOLE for their standards, blame yourself for not doing research.
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amateurr27
sickandtired -
i don't think you'll see the word 'blame' used anywhere in my reply, but since you've decided to open this can of worms, I'll have you know, and I'm sure others have done the same as well, that I called BOLE on numerous occasions confirming my ability to sit the exam - not one person told me there would be any problems. In fact the same day the director told my LLM coordinator I would have to return to the UK, the woman I spoke to on the phone said that I would be able to sit the bar with my current credentials.
So, if you have anything helpful to add to the conversation, please do. Otherwise, might I suggest you find a different thread on which to post.
sickandtired -
i don't think you'll see the word 'blame' used anywhere in my reply, but since you've decided to open this can of worms, I'll have you know, and I'm sure others have done the same as well, that I called BOLE on numerous occasions confirming my ability to sit the exam - not one person told me there would be any problems. In fact the same day the director told my LLM coordinator I would have to return to the UK, the woman I spoke to on the phone said that I would be able to sit the bar with my current credentials.
So, if you have anything helpful to add to the conversation, please do. Otherwise, might I suggest you find a different thread on which to post.
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Just more reason to document all your phone calls when it comes to something like this. Always get the name of the person you spoke to and write down the date and time and what was said. You also should have made a written request.

I find it hard to believe that you are the only person to have these qualifications seeking to take the bar. The person on the phone should have known better and your program coordinator should have definitely known better.
Just more reason to document all your phone calls when it comes to something like this. Always get the name of the person you spoke to and write down the date and time and what was said. You also should have made a written request.

I find it hard to believe that you are the only person to have these qualifications seeking to take the bar. The person on the phone should have known better and your program coordinator should have definitely known better.
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River
Hi amateurr27,

I was wondering if you had received any news regarding your application/appeal.
I will be in the same situation as you in about 2 years...

Please keep us posted, we are all pulling for you (although slightly for self interest, to be honest)

Thanks
Hi amateurr27,

I was wondering if you had received any news regarding your application/appeal.
I will be in the same situation as you in about 2 years...

Please keep us posted, we are all pulling for you (although slightly for self interest, to be honest)

Thanks
quote
amateurr27
hi river - thanks (regardless of intention). i haven't heard back yet, but i amassed a lot of uni and work documentation for the application and applied a little later (beginning of this month) in hopes that the appeal process, should there be one, will be less strenuous.
i should warn you, however, that what might be useful for my application is that a) i'm a U.S. citizen, and b) i worked at a law firm in NY for two years prior to beginning my LL.M.
in any case, i'll let you know the outcome.
best of luck
hi river - thanks (regardless of intention). i haven't heard back yet, but i amassed a lot of uni and work documentation for the application and applied a little later (beginning of this month) in hopes that the appeal process, should there be one, will be less strenuous.
i should warn you, however, that what might be useful for my application is that a) i'm a U.S. citizen, and b) i worked at a law firm in NY for two years prior to beginning my LL.M.
in any case, i'll let you know the outcome.
best of luck
quote
River
Hi,

Thanks for the added info.
If you don't mind sharing how you managed to work in the states without sitting the bar, that would be very nice.

I am actually thinking of completing an LL.B with BPP over the summer, although I am not sure how much that would count for in New York (or anywhere, for that matter...)

Is there an email address or phone number I could call and present my case to a decision maker/advisor with the BAR people?
I plan to ask/argue that if they don't count the LPC as an academic course, There is nothing more (acadamicaly) to do obove an LL.B in the UK and an LL.M in a US School?

Any input would be great!

Thanks

River
Hi,

Thanks for the added info.
If you don't mind sharing how you managed to work in the states without sitting the bar, that would be very nice.

I am actually thinking of completing an LL.B with BPP over the summer, although I am not sure how much that would count for in New York (or anywhere, for that matter...)

Is there an email address or phone number I could call and present my case to a decision maker/advisor with the BAR people?
I plan to ask/argue that if they don't count the LPC as an academic course, There is nothing more (acadamicaly) to do obove an LL.B in the UK and an LL.M in a US School?

Any input would be great!

Thanks

River
quote
amateurr27
Hi River,

Sorry for the delay in responding. It's very easy to get a job in the states without sitting the bar...it's called swallowing your pride and taking a massive paycut to be a paralegal - the firm uses your skills as an attorney but bills you out at a low price and pays you even less in return. the experience, however, can be, and was for me, unparalleled...really (if you're humble).

The nuances of the regulations to sit the bar have escaped me already, but you can take the LL.B. and LPC (and don't forget those articles!), qualify in the UK, and then come to the U.S. and get your LL.M. and then take the bar exam. The point is you have to have some substantive U.S. legal experience (hence, the LL.M) and enough legal background (hence, the UK qualification) before sitting the bar. As long as you have your LL.B., you don't need to be involved in the 'nature of the LPC' debate (whereas I did the CPE).

There is no number other than the main number that I have found. You can ask to speak to a director, but chances are, you won't get through so easily.

Best of luck!
Amber
Hi River,

Sorry for the delay in responding. It's very easy to get a job in the states without sitting the bar...it's called swallowing your pride and taking a massive paycut to be a paralegal - the firm uses your skills as an attorney but bills you out at a low price and pays you even less in return. the experience, however, can be, and was for me, unparalleled...really (if you're humble).

The nuances of the regulations to sit the bar have escaped me already, but you can take the LL.B. and LPC (and don't forget those articles!), qualify in the UK, and then come to the U.S. and get your LL.M. and then take the bar exam. The point is you have to have some substantive U.S. legal experience (hence, the LL.M) and enough legal background (hence, the UK qualification) before sitting the bar. As long as you have your LL.B., you don't need to be involved in the 'nature of the LPC' debate (whereas I did the CPE).

There is no number other than the main number that I have found. You can ask to speak to a director, but chances are, you won't get through so easily.

Best of luck!
Amber
quote
dhalc2
OK, like a few other people on this board, I am a bit confused by all this. I have a simple question which I hope someone will be able to answer for me:

I am a 2 year PQE lawyer and have the CPE and LPC qualifications (I have not done a law degree or an LLM). Will I be able to take the NY bar exam or will I need to complete some kind of further study first, and if so, what courses will I need to take?

Many thanks in advance for any replies!
OK, like a few other people on this board, I am a bit confused by all this. I have a simple question which I hope someone will be able to answer for me:

I am a 2 year PQE lawyer and have the CPE and LPC qualifications (I have not done a law degree or an LLM). Will I be able to take the NY bar exam or will I need to complete some kind of further study first, and if so, what courses will I need to take?

Many thanks in advance for any replies!
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River
I think (although you better check on the NY bar website) that 2 year PQE allows you to sit the exam regardless of education. It is a different path to qualifying for the bar (I.e. you either have 3 years academic law training OR you are 2 years post-qualified.

I can send you the link to the rules later on if you want.

Good luck
I think (although you better check on the NY bar website) that 2 year PQE allows you to sit the exam regardless of education. It is a different path to qualifying for the bar (I.e. you either have 3 years academic law training OR you are 2 years post-qualified.

I can send you the link to the rules later on if you want.

Good luck

quote
dhalc2
Thanks for the quick reply. I though that this was the case but wanted to check.

Would be great if you could send me the link to the rules as well!
Thanks for the quick reply. I though that this was the case but wanted to check.

Would be great if you could send me the link to the rules as well!
quote
River
Hi,

I am afraid I may have been a false profit earlier today...

If my reading if subsection 2 (particularly the end of it) is correct, you will be required to study an LLM or "the equivalent, including basic courses in American law" before you can actually sit the exam (see full text of 520.6.(2) below).

That said, at least you are will be eligible eventually...
Here's a link to the relevant rules:
http://www.nybarexam.org/Rules/Rules.htm#520.6 .

Subsection 2 reads:

"(2) The applicant shall show admission to practice law in a country other than the United States whose jurisprudence is based upon principals of English Common Law, where admission was based upon a program of study in a law school and/or law office recognized by the competent accrediting agency of the government of such other country and which is durationally equivalent yet substantively deficient under subdivision (b)(1)(i) of this section, and that such applicant has successfully completed a full-time or part time program consisting of a minimum of 20 semester hours of credit, or the equivalent, in professional law subjects, which includes basic courses in American law, in an approved law school in the United States."

I hope this helps!

River
Hi,

I am afraid I may have been a false profit earlier today...

If my reading if subsection 2 (particularly the end of it) is correct, you will be required to study an LLM or "the equivalent, including basic courses in American law" before you can actually sit the exam (see full text of 520.6.(2) below).

That said, at least you are will be eligible eventually...
Here's a link to the relevant rules:
http://www.nybarexam.org/Rules/Rules.htm#520.6 .

Subsection 2 reads:

"(2) The applicant shall show admission to practice law in a country other than the United States whose jurisprudence is based upon principals of English Common Law, where admission was based upon a program of study in a law school and/or law office recognized by the competent accrediting agency of the government of such other country and which is durationally equivalent yet substantively deficient under subdivision (b)(1)(i) of this section, and that such applicant has successfully completed a full-time or part time program consisting of a minimum of 20 semester hours of credit, or the equivalent, in professional law subjects, which includes basic courses in American law, in an approved law school in the United States."

I hope this helps!

River
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amateurr27
2 years in practice with the CPE/LPC?

you will still have to take the LL.M. in order to sit the exam. I assume that 2 years in practice means that you have completed your training contract and are qualified in the UK?

but more importantly, why would you want to sit the bar exam in New York when all of our lawyers are being made redundant? Not to mention many graduating in May don't have a start date until January, that is, if they're lucky enough to find a job.
2 years in practice with the CPE/LPC?

you will still have to take the LL.M. in order to sit the exam. I assume that 2 years in practice means that you have completed your training contract and are qualified in the UK?

but more importantly, why would you want to sit the bar exam in New York when all of our lawyers are being made redundant? Not to mention many graduating in May don't have a start date until January, that is, if they're lucky enough to find a job.
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dhalc2
River - thanks again, I'll have a look at the link, it seems that these rules are quite difficult to interpret.

Amateurr2 - yes, I'm 2 years post-qualified. I'm thinking of doing this to add another string to my bow. This would be in the intermediate term, I would think that the economy will be turning the corner in a few years time which realistically is how long it would take for me to get this thing anyway.
River - thanks again, I'll have a look at the link, it seems that these rules are quite difficult to interpret.

Amateurr2 - yes, I'm 2 years post-qualified. I'm thinking of doing this to add another string to my bow. This would be in the intermediate term, I would think that the economy will be turning the corner in a few years time which realistically is how long it would take for me to get this thing anyway.
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amateurr27
that's understandable then. you don't currently work for a magic circle and would like to be a more attractive candidate to them? i think the economy will indeed turn, but i don't see law firms as they operate sustainable. the law blogs here are REALLY depressing. america churns out so many lawyers who are told that they'll likely start with 100K+ salary (so they incur the student loan debt upfront), but there are simply not enough 100K+ jobs.

No state will let a foreign-qualified lawyer take the bar exam without some american legal training. an llm is fast and easy - but certainly NOT inexpensive!

best of luck
that's understandable then. you don't currently work for a magic circle and would like to be a more attractive candidate to them? i think the economy will indeed turn, but i don't see law firms as they operate sustainable. the law blogs here are REALLY depressing. america churns out so many lawyers who are told that they'll likely start with 100K+ salary (so they incur the student loan debt upfront), but there are simply not enough 100K+ jobs.

No state will let a foreign-qualified lawyer take the bar exam without some american legal training. an llm is fast and easy - but certainly NOT inexpensive!

best of luck
quote
dhalc2
No I'm not interested in the magic circle for the moment - I'm more interested in international mobility and working in-house. I realise that it's unnecessary to have international accreditations to practice abroad, especially if intending to remain in private practice, and I'm trying to determine whether the opportunity cost will be justified by the usefulness of having the NY bar designation in the long term.

Re America, it's all about incurring/paying off the debt isn't it? It's a tremendous burden for these young American lawyers, and one sometimes forgets that the US law firm hours culture is, at the base of the pyramid, driven in part by the need for each individual to service that debt.

Having said all that, good luck to you too!
No I'm not interested in the magic circle for the moment - I'm more interested in international mobility and working in-house. I realise that it's unnecessary to have international accreditations to practice abroad, especially if intending to remain in private practice, and I'm trying to determine whether the opportunity cost will be justified by the usefulness of having the NY bar designation in the long term.

Re America, it's all about incurring/paying off the debt isn't it? It's a tremendous burden for these young American lawyers, and one sometimes forgets that the US law firm hours culture is, at the base of the pyramid, driven in part by the need for each individual to service that debt.

Having said all that, good luck to you too!
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