Yes I know - 1 look at the topic of discussion and you think - oh no! its the same old bar exam discussion...

Just bear with me guys - I was wondering if any of you knew (as an international/foreign student, if you know you are heading to the States for a LL.M. in the next Fall) - of some way to start preparing for the NY bar before getting to the States in the Fall - a long distance course / preparatory material that could be sent by mail / online material

I came across http://baroutlines.com/ - has anyone used their material and passed? does anyone know if its any good? Does anyone know of any others?

Any help/advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanx :))

B/w a merry X'mas to all and have a super 2007!!!

come on guys help him out; personally don't know the answer

- Calabrassi

I don't know about baroutlines but all the people I know who took and passed the bar said the barbri books are really good. You can order them on amazon.com or on e-bay (US).

Barbri is what most people recommend.

I am confused. Are you sitting the bar exam before your LLM? Why would you do that? And why would you start studying so far in advance of the exam? I just sat the bar (and passed) and the main problem people can have is OVER studying. There is a HUGE volume of material but there is absolutely no way that you can learn it all. You should just study for the three months full-time in conjunction with the BarBri course. There is no way that studying so far in advance is going to give you any sort of advantage. It will be a waste of time since most of what you learn is short-term memory, cramming sort of stuff.

Many thanks for all the responses.

Flygirl: Many congratulations on passing the NY Bar. No, I want to take the Bar exam in July 2008 and not before my LL.M. You are right - its not a good idea to cram. I will be signing up for Bar Bri / Pieper before the Bar exam (expensive as they are) but if there are some books/materials like past papers compilations/workbooks etc published by BarBri/Pieper I wouldn't mind referring to them over a period of time (till the time I actually take the BarBri course) - I don't want to learn by rote, as I would inevitably be doing for the Bar Bri course (can't be helped though) - just assimilate the principles as far as possible, over a period of time: maybe as little as 1/2 hr a day.

I know its all at the level of being a nobel sentiment at the moment, but if you know of any books/material/compilations for the Essays section or Multiple Choice Qs, sold (independently of any Bar Exam course) by any publisher/Bar Exam course provider, which are available at book stores/Amazon please do let me know. I would be grateful. I want to put the nobel thoughts into practice and for once in my life pace it out, instead of placing exclusive reliance on eleventh hour studies, much the feature of my (undergrad) law school days.

Many thanks :)

Hi there,

I am sorry, my last post was not clear. Most of what you need to learn for the bar exam CAN ONLY be learned by cramming it in a short space of time. You do not learn by trying to understand the basic principles and then reasoning up. That is how I learn and was very shocked to find that basically for the bar exam you just learn lots and lots and lots of discrete points of law that fly out of your brain the day the exam is over. Trust me on this, starting to study before your LLM (ie: a year before the exam!) IS A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME. If you don't believe me - call BarBri and ask. They advocate learning all you need to know in the 2 and a half months before the exam and just pass. The approach you are taking sounds like you want to understand the material and learn everything which is not how you pass.

In addition, if you start studying so far in advance you will have burn out and not make it to the exam. The material is very very boring and highly detailed. If you start studying from books you buy off the internet without any sort of guidance or grounding from the course instructors you will quickly become disheartened because you will get extremely low scores on the multichoice and feel overwhelmed. Furthermore, you could end up studying the wrong information. The course books have everything that could be in the exam but the course instructors tell you what to priortize and the minimum you need to pass.

PLEASE trust me and wait until May 2008 before you start studying. Enjoy the time you have when you are not studying for the bar - the bar exam was the worst experience of my life and the thought of studying for it any longer that I had to makes me feel ill.

Good luck for July 2008!

But if you really want to start studying a year in advance you can buy BarBri or PMBR (for MBE only) books on Amazon. Enjoy! It is quite a laugh.

Hey! don't want to come across as an over-enthusiastic nerd wanting to pre-empt all competition... relax

I was just trying to know if there is a way. I don't want to stir up your memories of the days you spent preparing for the Bar Exam - I can well imagine, it must have been very difficult with all that data to cram & remember. Its just that if I remember correctly "underemployedlawyer" had mentioned on a post of his that he had done self-study to pass the NY bar...

I will be glad to take your advice and wait till 2008 (Quite frankly, I am used to last-minute study sessions) Many thanks!

If you want to self-study then you probably do need more than 3 months simply because you won't know what is relevant/likely to be in the exam and so will have to learn everything. If you are taking the course then you don't need to study before the course starts. I wouldn't recommend trying to learn it without the course because you have a much higher chance of failing.
Good luck.

What Flygirl is trying to say is that she believes in the old rule: the more you study, the more you learn; the more you learn, the more you know ; the more you know, the more you forget; the more you forget, the less you know...so why study?

heh, heh. Little do you know how true that is when it come to the bar exam - that is how I felt anway. The more I tried to remember the more fell out of my head. It is the most ridiculous exam ever. But worth it, of course

Hi Flygirl

Can you tell me if it's enough to study the Barbri Books (I believe they are nine in all) to prepare for the NY Bar Exam. I was thinking of buying Barbri books from ebay. Please take into consideration that I have never been exposed to US laws and have not yet studied in a US university.

Cheers
AJ

I believe you Flygirl. Most people do not prepare so much in advance.

However trying to get an overview on the NY Bar with Barbri might not be a bad idea either. Just an overview, Masteroflaws, for sure does not want to be ready to sit for the bar one year and half in advance.
And what you learn for the bar may also be useful for the LL.M. anyway.

Masteroflaws:
I can't help you much with the bar - I'm just a prospective LL.M. student- however, if I find the time, here is what I'm going to do (but for the LL.M. bc I won't take the bar anytime soon):

- read the barbri multistate book (quickly, skipping the details, just to get the idea);

- improve my legal writing (I'm currently reading an excellent book: Elements of legal style by Bryan A. Garner);

- trying to learn how to quote and cite in the American way (see law schools blue books).

I don't know if it is a good strategy. Current LL.M. students will know better. But I do intend to have some free time while in the US.

ok everyone, here is the detail with the BarBri books. They are EXTREMELY detailed so it is very very hard to get an overview as you all seem to want. But feel free to give them a read anway. You'll see what I mean when you go through them. The best overview you can get is from the course lectures themselves or the condensed BarBri book - the Conviser.
But beware, no matter how much of the law you know the reason most people fail is because they stuff up the MBE (multichoice exam). The hardest thing about the exam is these annoying multi-choice questions that purposefully try to trick you. So even if you know all the law backwards, if you can't think in the way you need to to answer these questions you will fail. Even on the subjects I knew really well I was still getting 30-40% on the practice tests initially.

As for studying from the books themselves by yourself, I really wouldn't recommend it. All the people I know who have done this have failed. So unless you are really really clever (I don't mean academically smart - I mean clever, quick, sharp and know exactly what the examiners are looking for) you will be making it very hard for yourself to pass. The most helpful things I found from the actual course were:
1) The lectures which showed me what I should be prioritizing and kept me sane by providing sound advice on how to keep my head and not get too stressed;
2) The simulated exam at the Javits Center
3) The study plan and outline which showed me what I should be studying each day - this stopped me from studying too much and getting burn out as it breaks the material down into manageable portions; and
4) The practice questions that you can do online (you can also buy them in hard back form but they aren't nearly as much fun)

I hope that helps.

Ok now.. I think that clears the air. Flygirl - thank you very much for sharing so much from your personal experience. What you say makes a lot of sense.
Ifgivenachance: what you say merits consideration too - it always helps to read good quality legal literature and make attempts to improve your writing skills (its useful for the person thats you, not just for the student in you:)

Just 1 thing though Flygirl - what is the recurring renewal financial obligation attached to admission to the NY Bar - is there any specified sum you have to pay annually/quarterly or something to stay admitted at the Bar - this is just something we may all want to know from someone who has just passed the bar... Thanx:))

There is a fee but i am not sure what it is. The firms pay it for you.