Please be aware of some facts before committing yourself to a US foreign LLM program. Most of these programs exist only as revenue generators for their respective institutions. A quick glance to the right of your screen exhibits this marketing machine in full force. Be aware that law schools in the US make a lot of money off these programs.
So before you pursue such a program, make sure you are doing it for the right reasons. For foreign grads (especially Indian) your job prospects in the US legal field will be limited to non-existent (in any mid-size or large firm) upon completion. There are exceptions of course, but these are generally limited to the ivy league schools. The reason for this is simple: there are just too many lawyers in this country. Its basic supply and demand. Even domestic JDs from Tier 1 schools often struggle to find jobs initially.
Further, law firms in the US are not the most diverse organizations. Although this is slowly changing, much of the change is due from external pressure (Fortune 500 companies requiring minority representation on their cases). So for foreign graduates (especially those from non-European countries), it becomes that much harder. Then there is the language barrier. The prospective employer is always going to select the person with the native tongue when given the choice. Unlike medicine or engineering, the practice of law in this country requires a strong grasp of the English language, both in its oral and written form.
Now if you are pursuing a LLM to leverage your degree back home, then by all means it may be worth every penny. Or you just might want the intellectual challenge or experience. But if you are looking for placement in the US, switch to Medicine, Engineering, or Nursing fields in which you will have no trouble finding a job.
Indian: LLM Applicants
Posted May 12, 2006 11:07
So before you pursue such a program, make sure you are doing it for the right reasons. For foreign grads (especially Indian) your job prospects in the US legal field will be limited to non-existent (in any mid-size or large firm) upon completion. There are exceptions of course, but these are generally limited to the ivy league schools. The reason for this is simple: there are just too many lawyers in this country. Its basic supply and demand. Even domestic JDs from Tier 1 schools often struggle to find jobs initially.
Further, law firms in the US are not the most diverse organizations. Although this is slowly changing, much of the change is due from external pressure (Fortune 500 companies requiring minority representation on their cases). So for foreign graduates (especially those from non-European countries), it becomes that much harder. Then there is the language barrier. The prospective employer is always going to select the person with the native tongue when given the choice. Unlike medicine or engineering, the practice of law in this country requires a strong grasp of the English language, both in its oral and written form.
Now if you are pursuing a LLM to leverage your degree back home, then by all means it may be worth every penny. Or you just might want the intellectual challenge or experience. But if you are looking for placement in the US, switch to Medicine, Engineering, or Nursing fields in which you will have no trouble finding a job.
Posted May 12, 2006 12:03
free advice,
you sound like a scared US lawyer, kind of pissed off at all of us Indians coming in.
for your information, the majority of my seniors who have done an LLM, and who were looking for employment in the US, have all got jobs and are doing very well.
just like every American graduate does not get the job that he wants, some Indian LLMs also do not get the jobs that they want. That is often a result of individual capabilities rather than systemic bias.
as for English, I don't know which Indians you have been conversing with, but on the whole I'd say that a lot of us have much better English than the American that you guys try to pass off as English.
so, other Indian LLM applicants, don't listen to this chap. by all means, do an LLM, with your eyes open; be aware that its a risk that you are taking, especially if you are self funded. but do take free and unsolicited advice like this chap's rant with a pinch of salt.
you sound like a scared US lawyer, kind of pissed off at all of us Indians coming in.
for your information, the majority of my seniors who have done an LLM, and who were looking for employment in the US, have all got jobs and are doing very well.
just like every American graduate does not get the job that he wants, some Indian LLMs also do not get the jobs that they want. That is often a result of individual capabilities rather than systemic bias.
as for English, I don't know which Indians you have been conversing with, but on the whole I'd say that a lot of us have much better English than the American that you guys try to pass off as English.
so, other Indian LLM applicants, don't listen to this chap. by all means, do an LLM, with your eyes open; be aware that its a risk that you are taking, especially if you are self funded. but do take free and unsolicited advice like this chap's rant with a pinch of salt.
Posted May 12, 2006 12:19
Study is not always a matter of job. It may also give you better insight of the word and therefore what are you doing should also be looked upon from other angels.
Posted May 12, 2006 13:13
Freeadvice,
Can you share a little bit about your background with us ?
Are you from India with Indian law degree? And did you do LLM and were not able to find a job?
If you are(were) in the same boat as us and want to share your experience, it would be helpful.
If this is a general warning that 'chances of finding a job with just LLM are very low', then I think everyone on this site is already very well aware of that fact. And it is a fact for everyone, regardless of their nationality. So why single one nationality out?
Can you share a little bit about your background with us ?
Are you from India with Indian law degree? And did you do LLM and were not able to find a job?
If you are(were) in the same boat as us and want to share your experience, it would be helpful.
If this is a general warning that 'chances of finding a job with just LLM are very low', then I think everyone on this site is already very well aware of that fact. And it is a fact for everyone, regardless of their nationality. So why single one nationality out?
Posted May 12, 2006 14:26
I agree with Aparna.
Posted May 14, 2006 04:37
I agree with freeadvice in some point. But I think it is quite negatively overstated.
Posted May 14, 2006 06:05
I have been doing some research about LLM placements.
The published data for JD job placements is, on an average, only 30% JDs (including from top law schools) get jobs. Which means 70% JDs do not get jobs.
There is no published data for LLM placements. Schools are also silent on this point.
I have sent e mails to LLM admissions offices of some 15 law schools, asking them directly about the placements after LLM. Either there were no replies or vague replies. No specific data.
I browsed thru web sites of about 25 top law firms and 25 medium sized law firms. Only one or two firms mention clearly that they do not hire LLMs. Encouraged by this, I sent e mails to around 40 law firms. I mentioned my credentials as LLB from Canada with top 1% of class (this is true) and SPILS from Stanford (which I dont yet have but just wanted to get a feel for response from Law firms). There were no replies.
The best source I found was past LLM students from the schools. Some were available on this site and respond quite candidly about their experiences. From that I could put the LLM placements percentage, on an average, to about 2 to 4%.
This has nothing to do with any nationality, I dont think so. It would be quite wrong to say this about one nationality.
The published data for JD job placements is, on an average, only 30% JDs (including from top law schools) get jobs. Which means 70% JDs do not get jobs.
There is no published data for LLM placements. Schools are also silent on this point.
I have sent e mails to LLM admissions offices of some 15 law schools, asking them directly about the placements after LLM. Either there were no replies or vague replies. No specific data.
I browsed thru web sites of about 25 top law firms and 25 medium sized law firms. Only one or two firms mention clearly that they do not hire LLMs. Encouraged by this, I sent e mails to around 40 law firms. I mentioned my credentials as LLB from Canada with top 1% of class (this is true) and SPILS from Stanford (which I dont yet have but just wanted to get a feel for response from Law firms). There were no replies.
The best source I found was past LLM students from the schools. Some were available on this site and respond quite candidly about their experiences. From that I could put the LLM placements percentage, on an average, to about 2 to 4%.
This has nothing to do with any nationality, I dont think so. It would be quite wrong to say this about one nationality.
Posted May 14, 2006 15:50
I
The best source I found was past LLM students from the schools. Some were available on this site and respond quite candidly about their experiences. From that I could put the LLM placements percentage, on an average, to about 2 to 4%.
Techlaw,
Does this 2 to 4 % take into consideration the fact that many LLMs already have a job either back home or in US (i.e people with JDs doing LLM to specialize)?
I am not questioning the validity of these numbers. Probably they are as right as such impirical surveys can produce but
they seem to be on lower side than expected. (With JDs at 30%, I was expecting more like at least half of that for LLMs i.e. 15% or so).
The best source I found was past LLM students from the schools. Some were available on this site and respond quite candidly about their experiences. From that I could put the LLM placements percentage, on an average, to about 2 to 4%.
</blockquote>
Techlaw,
Does this 2 to 4 % take into consideration the fact that many LLMs already have a job either back home or in US (i.e people with JDs doing LLM to specialize)?
I am not questioning the validity of these numbers. Probably they are as right as such impirical surveys can produce but
they seem to be on lower side than expected. (With JDs at 30%, I was expecting more like at least half of that for LLMs i.e. 15% or so).
Posted May 15, 2006 05:29
I am not saying the numbers are accurate. They are the result of survey by one person.
What is important, in my opinion, is to do the research for yourself. Talk to past students. This gives a good info.
Create a resume of a "future you after LLM" and send it to as many law firms as you can who might be interested. (Needless to say, dont give your real name etc. else when you do apply next year, it might create problems. Give a imaginary name but keep all other qualifications same. Add LLM to those qualifications from the school you intend to attend and the specialization i.e. create a resume of a "future you after LLM". I know this is not a 100% honest way to do this but in absense of any reliable data, before you invest $50K of your money, I would do this. But its really upto you.)
And you will get the idea about your own percentage numbers. They may not be "universally accurate" but they will hold validity for you. Good luck!
What is important, in my opinion, is to do the research for yourself. Talk to past students. This gives a good info.
Create a resume of a "future you after LLM" and send it to as many law firms as you can who might be interested. (Needless to say, dont give your real name etc. else when you do apply next year, it might create problems. Give a imaginary name but keep all other qualifications same. Add LLM to those qualifications from the school you intend to attend and the specialization i.e. create a resume of a "future you after LLM". I know this is not a 100% honest way to do this but in absense of any reliable data, before you invest $50K of your money, I would do this. But its really upto you.)
And you will get the idea about your own percentage numbers. They may not be "universally accurate" but they will hold validity for you. Good luck!
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