Hey MAB79,

I agree that Penn has a great law school, which is highly regarded and would be an excellent place to pursue an LL.M. But I can assure you that Chicago has a significantly stronger reputation, at least in the US. In fact, Penn Law is considered by many to be quite overrated. Brian Leiter is something of a guru on law-school rankings and you can see his view on this question here: http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2008/01/which-top-schoo.html

Although the US News rankings are correctly criticized (the overall ranking reflects an arbitrary assignment of respective values across numerous areas of comparison), the reputation scores are meaningful.

Lawyer/judge reputation scores:

1. Harvard University (4.8)

1. Stanford University (4.8)

1. Yale University (4.8)

4. Columbia University (4.7)

4. University of Chicago (4.7)

6. New York University (4.6)

6. University of Michigan, Ann Arbor (4.6)

6. University of Virginia (4.6)

9. University of California, Berkeley (4.5)

9. University of Pennsylvania (4.5)

Academic reputation scores (professors' rating of schools):

1. Yale University (4.9)

2. Harvard University (4.8)

3. Stanford University (4.7)

4. Columbia University (4.6)

4. New York University (4.6)

4. University of Chicago (4.6)

7. University of Michigan, Ann Arbor (4.5)

8. University of California, Berkeley (4.4)

8. University of Virginia (4.4)

10. University of Pennsylvania (4.3)

I could post links to clerkship and academic placement, which shows a dramatic difference between Chicago & Penn, but this has already become a long post.

As for the Ivy League issue, you misunderstand my point. I never said the Ivy League law schools were not very good. I said that Ivy League status is an immaterial point of distinction between the top US law schools. Penn is not better than Georgetown because the former is an Ivy League and the latter is not. It's because the former has developed a superior reputation in the legal field, has a better faculty, and is more selective. Similarly, Stanford is always ranked ahead of Columbia because its faculty is better, it's more difficult to get into, has better placement, and is regarded as being more prestigious within the legal community. Columbia's being an Ivy League is irrelevant to this calculus. Ultimately, the Ivy League is an undergraduate athletic conference for leading east-coast schools. How is that supposed to tell you that Penn's graduate program in law might be preferable to Chicago's?

This is not to say that people shouldn't choose Penn if they prefer that school for some reason important to themselves. But that reason should not include Penn's having an equivalent reputation to Chicago.

hey Randomfella,

Thank you!!! I will carefully read again all of your comments and the stats you have provided in the next days and weeks and make up my own mind. But as you said the Chicago option is extremely appealling and attractive!!!

I will definitlely apply to the TOP 5 and see how it goes. As I said, if I dont get in, Ill head most probably for Chicago:)

Many thanks for taking the TIME to write those insightful and useful comments!

PS. Montreal is really a cool city to be, however, it has always been a dream of mine to work and live in the US for a while and then come back home!

Cheers!

One final point re: "Top 5 is top 5 and Top 5 is top 5 since like forever...so, I think these 5 are far above the other unis"

Chicago has always had superior reputation scores than NYU and, in fact, UofC was ranked in the top 4 for a long time. In the mid-1990s, the US News editors revised their formula for computing overall score to include per-capita expenditures. NYU spends a lot more than Chicago by this metric, which is why it ranks ahead of Chicago (despite Chicago's having stronger reputation scores, equivalent LSATs, and a lower admission rate). Thus, it'd be a mistake to think that the current "top 5" is a relevant distinction.

Hey MAB79,

I agree that Penn has a great law school, which is highly regarded and would be an excellent place to pursue an LL.M. But I can assure you that Chicago has a significantly stronger reputation, at least in the US. In fact, Penn Law is considered by many to be quite overrated. Brian Leiter is something of a guru on law-school rankings and you can see his view on this question here: http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2008/01/which-top-schoo.html

Although the US News rankings are correctly criticized (the overall ranking reflects an arbitrary assignment of respective values across numerous areas of comparison), the reputation scores are meaningful.

Lawyer/judge reputation scores:

1. Harvard University (4.8)

1. Stanford University (4.8)

1. Yale University (4.8)

4. Columbia University (4.7)

4. University of Chicago (4.7)

6. New York University (4.6)

6. University of Michigan, Ann Arbor (4.6)

6. University of Virginia (4.6)

9. University of California, Berkeley (4.5)

9. University of Pennsylvania (4.5)

Academic reputation scores (professors' rating of schools):

1. Yale University (4.9)

2. Harvard University (4.8)

3. Stanford University (4.7)

4. Columbia University (4.6)

4. New York University (4.6)

4. University of Chicago (4.6)

7. University of Michigan, Ann Arbor (4.5)

8. University of California, Berkeley (4.4)

8. University of Virginia (4.4)

10. University of Pennsylvania (4.3)

I could post links to clerkship and academic placement, which shows a dramatic difference between Chicago & Penn, but this has already become a long post.

As for the Ivy League issue, you misunderstand my point. I never said the Ivy League law schools were not very good. I said that Ivy League status is an immaterial point of distinction between the top US law schools. Penn is not better than Georgetown because the former is an Ivy League and the latter is not. It's because the former has developed a superior reputation in the legal field, has a better faculty, and is more selective. Similarly, Stanford is always ranked ahead of Columbia because its faculty is better, it's more difficult to get into, has better placement, and is regarded as being more prestigious within the legal community. Columbia's being an Ivy League is irrelevant to this calculus. Ultimately, the Ivy League is an undergraduate athletic conference for leading east-coast schools. How is that supposed to tell you that Penn's graduate program in law might be preferable to Chicago's?

This is not to say that people shouldn't choose Penn if they prefer that school for some reason important to themselves. But that reason should not include Penn's having an equivalent reputation to Chicago.

One final point re: "Top 5 is top 5 and Top 5 is top 5 since like forever...so, I think these 5 are far above the other unis"

Chicago has always had superior reputation scores than NYU and, in fact, UofC was ranked in the top 4 for a long time. In the mid-1990s, the US News editors revised their formula for computing overall score to include per-capita expenditures. NYU spends a lot more than Chicago by this metric, which is why it ranks ahead of Chicago (despite Chicago's having stronger reputation scores, equivalent LSATs, and a lower admission rate). Thus, it'd be a mistake to think that the current "top 5" is a relevant distinction.

Quite right about rankings. At the end of the day, there are probably as many views as there are people! And lest I give the wrong impression, Penn is an excellent law school, which deserves its reputation.

Perhaps you're right about Europe & the Ivy League. Outside of the US, people mightn't be as familiar with the individual reputations of each law school and would thus use Ivy League affiliation as a useful heuristic.

Hey Dam,

I have applied to Columbia and got rejected. do you think a year of working experience in a top Canadian law firm might tip the balance in my favour?

Thanks!

Hey dam,

Thats exactly my plan to work for a top 5 law firm in Canada. If that does not happen, I should have a job lined up with a big bank (corporate department) or the Canadian Embassy or Insurance company in my city in order to boast my candidacy!!

Thanks again for your comments!

chicago!

Chicago