employment of NYU LLMs, only 10%(inculding in and outside USA)


dennywin

This rough statistics was told by a friend of mine attending NYU Law now. Even he didn't land a job so far. But he is really good. Before attending NYU Law, he has been working in Freshfield for 2 years in its Shanghai office as a Chinese law consultant.

Given such a chilly job market, what do u think of the worth of spending 70,000 dollars on a degree which would very likely bring u nothing?

This rough statistics was told by a friend of mine attending NYU Law now. Even he didn't land a job so far. But he is really good. Before attending NYU Law, he has been working in Freshfield for 2 years in its Shanghai office as a Chinese law consultant.

Given such a chilly job market, what do u think of the worth of spending 70,000 dollars on a degree which would very likely bring u nothing?
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Jeez, I've heard scary stats, but that sounds really dire, even for this economy; where did your friend hear this? Am I correct to assume that this is an aggregate for all LLM specialties?

Jeez, I've heard scary stats, but that sounds really dire, even for this economy; where did your friend hear this? Am I correct to assume that this is an aggregate for all LLM specialties?
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knight

one question - does this percentage take into account of those who signed service contracts with their employers before going to NYU? If it does, I am afraid the economy is chillier, i.e., less than 10% has landed jobs...

one question - does this percentage take into account of those who signed service contracts with their employers before going to NYU? If it does, I am afraid the economy is chillier, i.e., less than 10% has landed jobs...
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fencer

are the numbers worse, better or the same for CLS? i have heard rumors that recruitment isn't going so well at CLS either...

are the numbers worse, better or the same for CLS? i have heard rumors that recruitment isn't going so well at CLS either...
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rbp

Does anyone know the stats for tax LL.M.'s, especially domestic students who already have JD's?

Does anyone know the stats for tax LL.M.'s, especially domestic students who already have JD's?
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dennywin

yeah, the 10% or so include all forms of employment, such as those already signed up on before doing LLM at NYU.

My friend told me he and a few other Chinese students with prior working experience in PRC leading law firms(including int'l law firms' PRC offices) did receive some callbacks and interview opportunities but at the end of the day no one get offer. And thus they concluded as such: this year's NYU law fair for LLM students was more of a firms' promotion merely for publicity.

yeah, the 10% or so include all forms of employment, such as those already signed up on before doing LLM at NYU.

My friend told me he and a few other Chinese students with prior working experience in PRC leading law firms(including int'l law firms' PRC offices) did receive some callbacks and interview opportunities but at the end of the day no one get offer. And thus they concluded as such: this year's NYU law fair for LLM students was more of a firms' promotion merely for publicity.

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wolla

I'm sorry, but I don't believe such undocumented "rumours". As is at least the case for Columbia, a majority of the LL.M.'s have previous work experience and a great part of these LL.M.'s are on leave from their current employer (as will e.g. be the case for me).

I'm sorry, but I don't believe such undocumented "rumours". As is at least the case for Columbia, a majority of the LL.M.'s have previous work experience and a great part of these LL.M.'s are on leave from their current employer (as will e.g. be the case for me).
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dennywin

I'm sorry, but I don't believe such undocumented "rumours". As is at least the case for Columbia, a majority of the LL.M.'s have previous work experience and a great part of these LL.M.'s are on leave from their current employer (as will e.g. be the case for me).


I don't believe a large portion of people r taking a leave and doing LLM at NYU, although I don't know well the situation at Columbia. Ur statement is true at best to the extent that those LLMs' original employer r familiar with their former employees and r willing to take them back when they graduate.

In China, I know there some LLM studnents r "sponsored" to do LLM in USA by their original employers, most of them being elite int'l law firms like CC, JonesDay, Freshfield. Since such firms basically made a large investment in their employer to do LLM, they of course had intended to retain or enroll again the LLM/their original empoyees when they graduate.

<blockquote>I'm sorry, but I don't believe such undocumented "rumours". As is at least the case for Columbia, a majority of the LL.M.'s have previous work experience and a great part of these LL.M.'s are on leave from their current employer (as will e.g. be the case for me).</blockquote>

I don't believe a large portion of people r taking a leave and doing LLM at NYU, although I don't know well the situation at Columbia. Ur statement is true at best to the extent that those LLMs' original employer r familiar with their former employees and r willing to take them back when they graduate.

In China, I know there some LLM studnents r "sponsored" to do LLM in USA by their original employers, most of them being elite int'l law firms like CC, JonesDay, Freshfield. Since such firms basically made a large investment in their employer to do LLM, they of course had intended to retain or enroll again the LLM/their original empoyees when they graduate.


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Yme

I don't think those who are on leave from their employer have any guarantee that their former employer will hire them back.

I don't think those who are on leave from their employer have any guarantee that their former employer will hire them back.
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wolla

I don't think those who are on leave from their employer have any guarantee that their former employer will hire them back.


Well, that depends on the regulation in the jurisdiction in question. In my case, my employer can not terminate my position during my leave.

<blockquote>I don't think those who are on leave from their employer have any guarantee that their former employer will hire them back. </blockquote>

Well, that depends on the regulation in the jurisdiction in question. In my case, my employer can not terminate my position during my leave.
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wolla

dennywin, you may be correct in regard to NYU and the work experice of their LL.M.s

However, on a general note, I think you should be very cautious with spreading such "information", which are, until you prove otherwise, just undocumented rumours. This is especially the case in the current financial climate - no need to make people more nervous then is already the case.

dennywin, you may be correct in regard to NYU and the work experice of their LL.M.s

However, on a general note, I think you should be very cautious with spreading such "information", which are, until you prove otherwise, just undocumented rumours. This is especially the case in the current financial climate - no need to make people more nervous then is already the case.
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dennywin

what I have stated in this thread is just to give a general picture with a rough statistics. I have never said what I set out is very accurate information that can be somehow proved as 100% true.

But I believe people should make informed decision when it comes to spending a huge amount of money on a risky education investment.

The fact is that the very little portion of people who did land a job with a NYU LLM degree are most likely those who had already been experienced lawyers with Int'l law firms or leading law firms in their home jurisdinctions before doing LLM. If u don't have much attractive work experience and just wish to use LLM to change ur prospect of job hunting, u should know: wake up! it's not gonna happen in most cases.
We all know US law firms most likely recruit LLMs from big emerging markets like China and India. If only a handful NYU LLMs from China can land a job from the NY job fair, u can imagine how bad the legal market is.

what I have stated in this thread is just to give a general picture with a rough statistics. I have never said what I set out is very accurate information that can be somehow proved as 100% true.

But I believe people should make informed decision when it comes to spending a huge amount of money on a risky education investment.

The fact is that the very little portion of people who did land a job with a NYU LLM degree are most likely those who had already been experienced lawyers with Int'l law firms or leading law firms in their home jurisdinctions before doing LLM. If u don't have much attractive work experience and just wish to use LLM to change ur prospect of job hunting, u should know: wake up! it's not gonna happen in most cases.
We all know US law firms most likely recruit LLMs from big emerging markets like China and India. If only a handful NYU LLMs from China can land a job from the NY job fair, u can imagine how bad the legal market is.

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dennywin

u can do the math:
NYU annually enroll around 60 PRC(People's Republic of China) students(let's exclude Taiwanese for now). Setting the percentage of PRC NYU LLMs of landing a job with a big law from NYU law fair is 10%, then 6 PRC NYU LLMs ultimately get a big law job?

Do u think 6 people is an underestimated number?
I don't think so. 6 would be very fair, likely less than that.

If PRC LLM percentage is 10%, let's say, what about Taiwanese?--------To tell u the truth, many Taiwanese had been complaining even in 2007 and 2008 such bullish years that their chance of getting hired by big law participating NYU job fair was like 10% of those of PRC(mainland) LLMs.

u can do the math:
NYU annually enroll around 60 PRC(People's Republic of China) students(let's exclude Taiwanese for now). Setting the percentage of PRC NYU LLMs of landing a job with a big law from NYU law fair is 10%, then 6 PRC NYU LLMs ultimately get a big law job?

Do u think 6 people is an underestimated number?
I don't think so. 6 would be very fair, likely less than that.

If PRC LLM percentage is 10%, let's say, what about Taiwanese?--------To tell u the truth, many Taiwanese had been complaining even in 2007 and 2008 such bullish years that their chance of getting hired by big law participating NYU job fair was like 10% of those of PRC(mainland) LLMs.
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mnementh

are the numbers worse, better or the same for CLS? i have heard rumors that recruitment isn't going so well at CLS either...


numbers at NYU are better than CLS, firsthand.

<blockquote>are the numbers worse, better or the same for CLS? i have heard rumors that recruitment isn't going so well at CLS either...</blockquote>

numbers at NYU are better than CLS, firsthand.
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wolla


what I have stated in this thread is just to give a general picture with a rough statistics.


What statistics? So far your number is hear-say at best.


But I believe people should make informed decision when it comes to spending a huge amount of money on a risky education investment.


Exactly! And thats why I think you should be very careful with starting threads like this (and with such title) and labelling rumours as "statistics"

<blockquote>
what I have stated in this thread is just to give a general picture with a rough statistics.
</blockquote>

What statistics? So far your number is hear-say at best.

<blockquote>
But I believe people should make informed decision when it comes to spending a huge amount of money on a risky education investment.
</blockquote>

Exactly! And thats why I think you should be very careful with starting threads like this (and with such title) and labelling rumours as "statistics"

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knight

I think I see Denny's points which makes sense since he is from China and not talking in his/her mother tongue - let's not fight in the thick of choice of words - this is something that would be a plus to the arguments. Anyway, it's gloomy time!

I think I see Denny's points which makes sense since he is from China and not talking in his/her mother tongue - let's not fight in the thick of choice of words - this is something that would be a plus to the arguments. Anyway, it's gloomy time!
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surefire

the employment picture is obviously quite dim, but a tax llm from nyu will give you better employment prospects than any NYU or CLS degree.

firms recruit like crazy for nyu tax lawyers, even in this market...

the employment picture is obviously quite dim, but a tax llm from nyu will give you better employment prospects than any NYU or CLS degree.

firms recruit like crazy for nyu tax lawyers, even in this market...
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yasminm

Relax everyone...I think it was quite clear that the 10% figure was anecdotal, so no need to get too fussed over it. To be honest, I suspect the prospects are even dimmer than the articulated number here (indeed, most of the people I keep in touch with who are currently at top schools like YLS, SLS, CLS and HLS still don't have offers because the market is that bad), but to be fair, my own understanding is as anecdotal as any of the information here.

What is clear from all of this though is this: really think long and hard if the sole motivation for doing an LLM ANYWHERE is employment in the US thereafter.

Relax everyone...I think it was quite clear that the 10% figure was anecdotal, so no need to get too fussed over it. To be honest, I suspect the prospects are even dimmer than the articulated number here (indeed, most of the people I keep in touch with who are currently at top schools like YLS, SLS, CLS and HLS still don't have offers because the market is that bad), but to be fair, my own understanding is as anecdotal as any of the information here.

What is clear from all of this though is this: really think long and hard if the sole motivation for doing an LLM ANYWHERE is employment in the US thereafter.
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wolla

Relax everyone...I think it was quite clear that the 10% figure was anecdotal, so no need to get too fussed over it. To be honest, I suspect the prospects are even dimmer than the articulated number here (indeed, most of the people I keep in touch with who are currently at top schools like YLS, SLS, CLS and HLS still don't have offers because the market is that bad), but to be fair, my own understanding is as anecdotal as any of the information here.

What is clear from all of this though is this: really think long and hard if the sole motivation for doing an LLM ANYWHERE is employment in the US thereafter.


I agree. However, it was the claim of the thread starter that the 10% was a total for both employment in- and outside the States. The 10% may be too high when speaking of employment in the States, however, when we are talking employment in total, I think that (even for NYU LL.M.'s) that the number is somewhat higher.

<blockquote>Relax everyone...I think it was quite clear that the 10% figure was anecdotal, so no need to get too fussed over it. To be honest, I suspect the prospects are even dimmer than the articulated number here (indeed, most of the people I keep in touch with who are currently at top schools like YLS, SLS, CLS and HLS still don't have offers because the market is that bad), but to be fair, my own understanding is as anecdotal as any of the information here.

What is clear from all of this though is this: really think long and hard if the sole motivation for doing an LLM ANYWHERE is employment in the US thereafter.</blockquote>

I agree. However, it was the claim of the thread starter that the 10% was a total for both employment in- and outside the States. The 10% may be too high when speaking of employment in the States, however, when we are talking employment in total, I think that (even for NYU LL.M.'s) that the number is somewhat higher.
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wolla


What is clear from all of this though is this: really think long and hard if the sole motivation for doing an LLM ANYWHERE is employment in the US thereafter.


Well, in my opinion, if your sole purpose for obtaining an LL.M. in the States is a job in the States afterwards, then you're not pursuing the LLM. for the correct reason(s). If this is truly your only goal, then you should opt for the JD.

The prospect of getting a job in the US is, of course, part of the motivition for most people, however, I think that the "experience" and the development of your personal and professional skills play a greater role - at least it does in my case :)

<blockquote>
What is clear from all of this though is this: really think long and hard if the sole motivation for doing an LLM ANYWHERE is employment in the US thereafter.</blockquote>

Well, in my opinion, if your sole purpose for obtaining an LL.M. in the States is a job in the States afterwards, then you're not pursuing the LLM. for the correct reason(s). If this is truly your only goal, then you should opt for the JD.

The prospect of getting a job in the US is, of course, part of the motivition for most people, however, I think that the "experience" and the development of your personal and professional skills play a greater role - at least it does in my case :)
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