Off to KCL 2011/2012


Sienna

@hny_flying
No, it does not worth going to King's at all, that's why all the people in this topic are heading off to King's ;-)

Seriously guys, except if it is Oxbridge, being a LLM graduate from King's, UCL or LSE will not make you the one that everyone wants in a London law firm !! This is not a qualifying degree and don't forget that you will be in competition with UK students.

After, choosing between LSE, UCL or King's is important regarding the reputation of the university you are going to attent in your country.
For example i know in Europe it is King's, in Canada and America it is LSE and then UCL. I don't know in India.
But really, to find a job in the UK it does not really matter, I think your academic background will be more relevant to them (marks obtained, languages, jobs, bar exam ...)!!

@hny_flying
No, it does not worth going to King's at all, that's why all the people in this topic are heading off to King's ;-)

Seriously guys, except if it is Oxbridge, being a LLM graduate from King's, UCL or LSE will not make you the one that everyone wants in a London law firm !! This is not a qualifying degree and don't forget that you will be in competition with UK students.

After, choosing between LSE, UCL or King's is important regarding the reputation of the university you are going to attent in your country.
For example i know in Europe it is King's, in Canada and America it is LSE and then UCL. I don't know in India.
But really, to find a job in the UK it does not really matter, I think your academic background will be more relevant to them (marks obtained, languages, jobs, bar exam ...)!!
quote

I think it's a bit jejeune to suggest that (after Oxbridge) a degree from King's College is the door opener in Europe. The reality being that the calibre of LL.M. degree achieved by someone (together with the references penned by their professors/lecturers) often has (have) a huge bearing on job opportunities. Putting it bluntly, a third class from King's fades into insignificance beside a high II.1 or a first from either LSE or UCL.

Even in cases where a university does not grade its LL.M candidates, an employer can usually judge a job applicant on the basis of the grades achieved by him/her in various LL.M. subjects. In any event, I do not accept the broad generalisation that an LL.M. from King's is superior to one from LSE. Sienna has not offered us any hard substantive evidence in support of this (highly questionable) contention.

I think it's a bit jejeune to suggest that (after Oxbridge) a degree from King's College is the door opener in Europe. The reality being that the calibre of LL.M. degree achieved by someone (together with the references penned by their professors/lecturers) often has (have) a huge bearing on job opportunities. Putting it bluntly, a third class from King's fades into insignificance beside a high II.1 or a first from either LSE or UCL.

Even in cases where a university does not grade its LL.M candidates, an employer can usually judge a job applicant on the basis of the grades achieved by him/her in various LL.M. subjects. In any event, I do not accept the broad generalisation that an LL.M. from King's is superior to one from LSE. Sienna has not offered us any hard substantive evidence in support of this (highly questionable) contention.
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Sienna

So obviously you did not read my post Trinity Insignia.

The first part of my reply was sarcastic : someone posts on a topic " off to KCL" if it worths going to KCL. Do you really belieive that someone who applied, was accepted and is going to attend the program will say : "no, don't go, this LLm is a piece of shit that is exactly why im going to do it " ???

Second, where did I state that a LLM from King's is superior to one from LSE ??? What I said is that a LLM will not make you find a job in England whatever it is a LLM from UCL, LSE or King's. The only exception is Cambridge or Oxford.
After, saying that a high 2.1 from LSE is better than a third class from King's ... who would not agree with that ?? It is called common sense and once again i never said the contrary !!!

And concerning Europe, I was just suggesting to hny_flying to decide upon the universities'reputation in her home countries because in England being a graduate from LSE or UCL or King's (with the same marks obviously!) does not matter really as there is other things to take into consideration (like your background, if you are a qualified lawyer etc...)!!!

So obviously you did not read my post Trinity Insignia.

The first part of my reply was sarcastic : someone posts on a topic " off to KCL" if it worths going to KCL. Do you really belieive that someone who applied, was accepted and is going to attend the program will say : "no, don't go, this LLm is a piece of shit that is exactly why im going to do it " ???

Second, where did I state that a LLM from King's is superior to one from LSE ??? What I said is that a LLM will not make you find a job in England whatever it is a LLM from UCL, LSE or King's. The only exception is Cambridge or Oxford.
After, saying that a high 2.1 from LSE is better than a third class from King's ... who would not agree with that ?? It is called common sense and once again i never said the contrary !!!

And concerning Europe, I was just suggesting to hny_flying to decide upon the universities'reputation in her home countries because in England being a graduate from LSE or UCL or King's (with the same marks obviously!) does not matter really as there is other things to take into consideration (like your background, if you are a qualified lawyer etc...)!!!

quote

I accept that I misread most of your post. But, as you have already stated in another post, "sorry if I have not expressed myself clearly". And therein lies the problem. Your last post but one gives the impression that the King's degree is the English degree which counts from a European mainland perspective, and that the LSE degree is the one which has value from a U.S. perspective (when viewed through the prism of potential employers of LL.M. graduates).

So, in conclusion, I was unfair in my reading of your post. But you did not make life easy for your readers by making obfuscatory comments about the manner in which certain U.K. LL.M's are perceived in mainland Europe and the States respectively.

I accept that I misread most of your post. But, as you have already stated in another post, "sorry if I have not expressed myself clearly". And therein lies the problem. Your last post but one gives the impression that the King's degree is the English degree which counts from a European mainland perspective, and that the LSE degree is the one which has value from a U.S. perspective (when viewed through the prism of potential employers of LL.M. graduates).

So, in conclusion, I was unfair in my reading of your post. But you did not make life easy for your readers by making obfuscatory comments about the manner in which certain U.K. LL.M's are perceived in mainland Europe and the States respectively.
quote
Sienna

and therein lies the problem!! Im sorry but the problem is that you perceive yourself to be superior. To quote 'obfuscatory'! is this really making life easy for your readers?

Im glad you think that my last post but one gives the impression that the Kings degree is more valued in mainland Europe and that the LSE LL.M is more valued from a US perspective because that is exactly what i intended to get accross.

The problem was that in your inital post for some reason your starting inferring that people on the forum are not capable of distinguishing between a third class degree from Kings and a 2.1 or a 1st Class degree from LSE or UCL. So on behalf of everyone on the forum i thank you for clearing this up !

To be clear, I just wanted to suggest that a LL.M from Kings is generally more valued in Europe than a LL.M from UCL or LSE. Being from mainland Europe, this is the general impression that i have (from my own experience of speaking to employers etc).

and therein lies the problem!! Im sorry but the problem is that you perceive yourself to be superior. To quote 'obfuscatory'! is this really making life easy for your readers?

Im glad you think that my last post but one gives the impression that the Kings degree is more valued in mainland Europe and that the LSE LL.M is more valued from a US perspective because that is exactly what i intended to get accross.

The problem was that in your inital post for some reason your starting inferring that people on the forum are not capable of distinguishing between a third class degree from Kings and a 2.1 or a 1st Class degree from LSE or UCL. So on behalf of everyone on the forum i thank you for clearing this up !

To be clear, I just wanted to suggest that a LL.M from Kings is generally more valued in Europe than a LL.M from UCL or LSE. Being from mainland Europe, this is the general impression that i have (from my own experience of speaking to employers etc).

quote

Finally, we get to the nub of the issue. I just don't buy into your assessment that - viewed through European mainland eyes -an LL.M. from King's is generally more valued than an LL.M. from LSE or UCL. I wonder how many Mainland European employers you spoke to in this regard. Three, five, ten, twenty, fifty?

LSE has a plethora of "Galacticos" in its law faculty. King's also has many star performers. But the problem with your assessment of LSE versus King's (from a European perspective) is that you have a vested interest in believing that King's is the superior institution. Because you are going there in the next academic year. And the same is true of many of the other posters on this thread.

Finally, we get to the nub of the issue. I just don't buy into your assessment that - viewed through European mainland eyes -an LL.M. from King's is generally more valued than an LL.M. from LSE or UCL. I wonder how many Mainland European employers you spoke to in this regard. Three, five, ten, twenty, fifty?

LSE has a plethora of "Galacticos" in its law faculty. King's also has many star performers. But the problem with your assessment of LSE versus King's (from a European perspective) is that you have a vested interest in believing that King's is the superior institution. Because you are going there in the next academic year. And the same is true of many of the other posters on this thread.

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Pluto

Hey guys, just reading this post and thought I'd wade in on this little contretemps.

General speaking (and I stress generally), I've found KCL to have a higher profile in continental Europe and LSE to have a higher profile in North America (Europeans don't seem as enamoured with the LSE brand as Americans and Asians). Why this has transpired, I'm not sure. It may have resulted from admission demographics: LSE traditionally admits lots of international students, while KCL admits Europeans and lots of domestic students. Another possible reason is that EU law is arguably KCL's leading research area, so attracts more European students and the KCL brand travels back to European law firms and institutions.

IMO, this doesn't mean a KCL LLM necessarily opens more doors (personally, I don't believe LLMs open many doors at all); it's just well-known.

Hey guys, just reading this post and thought I'd wade in on this little contretemps.

General speaking (and I stress generally), I've found KCL to have a higher profile in continental Europe and LSE to have a higher profile in North America (Europeans don't seem as enamoured with the LSE brand as Americans and Asians). Why this has transpired, I'm not sure. It may have resulted from admission demographics: LSE traditionally admits lots of international students, while KCL admits Europeans and lots of domestic students. Another possible reason is that EU law is arguably KCL's leading research area, so attracts more European students and the KCL brand travels back to European law firms and institutions.

IMO, this doesn't mean a KCL LLM necessarily opens more doors (personally, I don't believe LLMs open many doors at all); it's just well-known.
quote
hny_flying

Oohkay! First of all I did not mean to spark off a raging debate... lets just all retract our claws for now shall we :D

My main intention was to find out, if you had offers from UCL, KCL and LSE... which one would you pick. I just wanted to know so that it could help me make a decision as the King's offer has a deadline. Anwyay, after reading your views (and others at this forum), I understand that all three have different reputations in different countries. I personally think I would go for KCL,if the others rejected me.

@ Pluto: If you think LLMs dont open any doors at all, then why are you planning to pursue one? I don't mean to fight, but I find it hard to comprehend why a person who thinks LLM has no value would even be on a LLM website. If you have any genuine comments or experiences on the job market in UK currently, that you can share, I'm sure all the members and visitors of this site would benefit from your views.

Oohkay! First of all I did not mean to spark off a raging debate... lets just all retract our claws for now shall we :D

My main intention was to find out, if you had offers from UCL, KCL and LSE... which one would you pick. I just wanted to know so that it could help me make a decision as the King's offer has a deadline. Anwyay, after reading your views (and others at this forum), I understand that all three have different reputations in different countries. I personally think I would go for KCL,if the others rejected me.

@ Pluto: If you think LLMs dont open any doors at all, then why are you planning to pursue one? I don't mean to fight, but I find it hard to comprehend why a person who thinks LLM has no value would even be on a LLM website. If you have any genuine comments or experiences on the job market in UK currently, that you can share, I'm sure all the members and visitors of this site would benefit from your views.
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Pluto

I did not say an LLM doesn't open any doors at all, but that it doesn't open many. If you're pursuing an LLM purely (or predominantly) to secure a job - you are misdirected. Most LLMs will not lead to a job (especially in the jurisdiction of study).

I did not say an LLM doesn't open any doors at all, but that it doesn't open many. If you're pursuing an LLM purely (or predominantly) to secure a job - you are misdirected. Most LLMs will not lead to a job (especially in the jurisdiction of study).
quote

Sorry Pluto but your answer shows a lack of understanding of the job market. Sure - the LL.M. year will not help you make a leap forward in terms of studying a specific subject and becoming a master mind at that subject. However, many law firms appreciate the LLM year. Language-wise, in terms of adopting to unknown surroundings etc. Otherwise, how do you explain that Biglaw loves LLM students, rewards them with a higher salary or even substracting the LLM year on their way to becoming a partner??

Sorry Pluto but your answer shows a lack of understanding of the job market. Sure - the LL.M. year will not help you make a leap forward in terms of studying a specific subject and becoming a master mind at that subject. However, many law firms appreciate the LLM year. Language-wise, in terms of adopting to unknown surroundings etc. Otherwise, how do you explain that Biglaw loves LLM students, rewards them with a higher salary or even substracting the LLM year on their way to becoming a partner??
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Pluto

I have to disagree Dr Manhattan - you don't seem to have read my comment in the context of the question it was answering. hny_flying is asking about job prospects in the UK.

As far as the UK is concerned, law firms are generally not interested or impressed with LLMs. When UK law firms do recruit LLM students they are looking for attributes they already have eg. language skills, legal experience in another jurisdiction etc.

There are exceptions which will make a law firm interested - eg. someone with a highly-specialised LLM.

Lots of students come to the UK thinking an LLM will secure them a job in the UK - the vast majority go back to their home country (this is now severely compounded by new visa rules). In a student's home country, an LLM may have more value, because a candidate can show they've acquired international experience, English language skills etc (as you say above). Eg. Austrian and German law firms like LLMs and often send their lawyer to do LLMs. But, as far as the UK is concerned, an LLM will have little value on the job market. Equally, most LLMs in the US and Canada have little value for foreign candidates seeking jobs (again the vast majority return home).

With respect to law firms giving a higher salary to someone with additional postgrad qualifications - this is nothing new.

I have to disagree Dr Manhattan - you don't seem to have read my comment in the context of the question it was answering. hny_flying is asking about job prospects in the UK.

As far as the UK is concerned, law firms are generally not interested or impressed with LLMs. When UK law firms do recruit LLM students they are looking for attributes they already have eg. language skills, legal experience in another jurisdiction etc.

There are exceptions which will make a law firm interested - eg. someone with a highly-specialised LLM.

Lots of students come to the UK thinking an LLM will secure them a job in the UK - the vast majority go back to their home country (this is now severely compounded by new visa rules). In a student's home country, an LLM may have more value, because a candidate can show they've acquired international experience, English language skills etc (as you say above). Eg. Austrian and German law firms like LLMs and often send their lawyer to do LLMs. But, as far as the UK is concerned, an LLM will have little value on the job market. Equally, most LLMs in the US and Canada have little value for foreign candidates seeking jobs (again the vast majority return home).

With respect to law firms giving a higher salary to someone with additional postgrad qualifications - this is nothing new.

quote

touché. in that sense you are absolutely right!

touché. in that sense you are absolutely right!
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Medland

Hny_flying,

Here's my two cents on the UK job market for LLMs. I have many Canadian friends (i am canadian, note Canada is also based on the UK common law system) who have secured employment post-LLM in London. They are all Cambridge or LSE graduates.

Overall, I think Pluto is right. The majority of UK LLMs will not find employment. They seem to have this unbelievable sense of entitlement and just seem to think they are going to be heavily head-hunted by top UK firms. However, there is still a
minority who will find top training contracts. I think at any of the universities described above (Kings, UCL, LSE, etc) the right person who constantly improves his or her language skills, has an excellent academic history and charming personality who takes every opportunity to network has a shot at finding a job at a UK firm.

While the UK LLM is a risk, it also a great opportunity for an ambitious young student/lawyer to break into a job market that is otherwise inaccessible. Practice your language skills, study hard and network. Best Case scenario? you end up working at a magic circle firm: worst case? You return to your country with a top credential and quickly climb the ranks towards partnership.

I say go for it!

Hny_flying,

Here's my two cents on the UK job market for LLMs. I have many Canadian friends (i am canadian, note Canada is also based on the UK common law system) who have secured employment post-LLM in London. They are all Cambridge or LSE graduates.

Overall, I think Pluto is right. The majority of UK LLMs will not find employment. They seem to have this unbelievable sense of entitlement and just seem to think they are going to be heavily head-hunted by top UK firms. However, there is still a
minority who will find top training contracts. I think at any of the universities described above (Kings, UCL, LSE, etc) the right person who constantly improves his or her language skills, has an excellent academic history and charming personality who takes every opportunity to network has a shot at finding a job at a UK firm.

While the UK LLM is a risk, it also a great opportunity for an ambitious young student/lawyer to break into a job market that is otherwise inaccessible. Practice your language skills, study hard and network. Best Case scenario? you end up working at a magic circle firm: worst case? You return to your country with a top credential and quickly climb the ranks towards partnership.

I say go for it!
quote

There are certain LL.M.'s which give huge added value to students. So, in the States, for example, Yale only accept a minuscule number of applicants and a Yale LL.M. is hugely influential in the job market. My forecast is that the new Oxford LL.M. in Financial Services Law will also prove invaluable to the select few who gain this particular qualification. It will constitute the direct linkage between the candidate and the financial services sector of many top law firms and financial services companies.

I think it is a mistake to generalise about the LL.M. and how it is received by U.K. law firms. Law firms will always have space available for exceptional people. And students performing brilliantly in their respective LL.M. degrees will find that the doors of U.K law firms open for them. This is especially true of those securing firsts across the board in their LL.M. finals (including in both written examinations and research dissertations). So I would caution against the kind of generalisations permeating this thread. And point out that gifted people with high calibre LL.M.s will often go on to secure top notch jobs in the U.K.

There are certain LL.M.'s which give huge added value to students. So, in the States, for example, Yale only accept a minuscule number of applicants and a Yale LL.M. is hugely influential in the job market. My forecast is that the new Oxford LL.M. in Financial Services Law will also prove invaluable to the select few who gain this particular qualification. It will constitute the direct linkage between the candidate and the financial services sector of many top law firms and financial services companies.

I think it is a mistake to generalise about the LL.M. and how it is received by U.K. law firms. Law firms will always have space available for exceptional people. And students performing brilliantly in their respective LL.M. degrees will find that the doors of U.K law firms open for them. This is especially true of those securing firsts across the board in their LL.M. finals (including in both written examinations and research dissertations). So I would caution against the kind of generalisations permeating this thread. And point out that gifted people with high calibre LL.M.s will often go on to secure top notch jobs in the U.K.
quote
Interalia

quote

I accept that someone with an Oxford, Cambridge or Edinburgh LL.B./B.C.L. degree will sometimes be more attractive to UK law firms than (say) someone from Heidelberg or Paris with a Civil Law degree coupled with (say) a King's College or LSE LL.M.

But I am wary of the kind of generalisations that permeate this thread. Because the reality is that we live in an increasingly globalised society. And that many large law firms have German, Italian and French clients with complicated commercial portfolios. So, for example, many of the large London law firms will prefer someone special from Heidelberg with a King's LL.M. to service their German client base (fluency in German being an added plus so far as the London law firm is concerned).

So that's my caveat. Do not generalise about the value of LL.M.'s. As the late Alfie Denning would have observed, "every case turns on its own facts".

I accept that someone with an Oxford, Cambridge or Edinburgh LL.B./B.C.L. degree will sometimes be more attractive to UK law firms than (say) someone from Heidelberg or Paris with a Civil Law degree coupled with (say) a King's College or LSE LL.M.

But I am wary of the kind of generalisations that permeate this thread. Because the reality is that we live in an increasingly globalised society. And that many large law firms have German, Italian and French clients with complicated commercial portfolios. So, for example, many of the large London law firms will prefer someone special from Heidelberg with a King's LL.M. to service their German client base (fluency in German being an added plus so far as the London law firm is concerned).

So that's my caveat. Do not generalise about the value of LL.M.'s. As the late Alfie Denning would have observed, "every case turns on its own facts".
quote
Sienna

Hello everyone !!

I read on KCL's website that the fees for 2011 will be .... £9400 for UK/EU !!!!!!!! It is a huge increase !

Also i was wondering, when our offer letter states that one is a ELQFEE student, if this one will be required to pay an additionnal £2000 ?
In this case it will be £11600 only for the fees !!!!

Anyone has an idea about the fees for 2011/2012 ?

Hello everyone !!

I read on KCL's website that the fees for 2011 will be .... £9400 for UK/EU !!!!!!!! It is a huge increase !

Also i was wondering, when our offer letter states that one is a ELQFEE student, if this one will be required to pay an additionnal £2000 ?
In this case it will be £11600 only for the fees !!!!

Anyone has an idea about the fees for 2011/2012 ?
quote

Hi Friends ,
I am in bit of a confusion, so thought of seeking your advice. I have offer letters from King's College London to pursue LLM and from University of Nottingham to pursue LLM in Intl. Commercial Law.

Which one should I opt for and Why?
I ll be very grateful for you help , time and consideration.

Hi Friends ,
I am in bit of a confusion, so thought of seeking your advice. I have offer letters from King's College London to pursue LLM and from University of Nottingham to pursue LLM in Intl. Commercial Law.

Which one should I opt for and Why?
I ll be very grateful for you help , time and consideration.
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faillace

So, who's going to enrol at KCL?

So, who's going to enrol at KCL?
quote

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