Hi
I'm writing an article for a Swiss national newspaper on the reasons why and when international students take into consideration to attend LLm programmes in Switzerlandor why not.
To hear from those of you who weighed the pros and cons of such programmes would be highly appreciated. Have you ever thought about it? Have you attended one, or why not?

thank you very much for your accounts
J

anyone? I'd love to hear from you

thanks anyway!

What newspaper are you writing for?
Anyway: Some Swiss Universities have quite something to offer. The problem is, that they don't need to advertise what they have, since they can rely on public budgets which are unaffected by how much money they generate. There are some exceptions, though, such as the University of Bern with its M.I.L.E program, which is basically an LLM or the graduate institute in Geneva. It really needs an effort to be internationally recognized. To keep teaching international law classes in German certainly doesn't help. Regarding this latter aspect, the University of Bern is scheduled to stand out in the future, with its constantly expanding curriculum of law classes taught in English. I expect that the Bologna reform (and globalization in general) will force universities of small countries (Switzerland) to consolidate their expertise in one field, in order to have any significant impact, internationally. Zurich would thus focus on financial issues. Bern seems to consolidate public law and international law. In the long run, any honest attempt at building an internationally competitive LLM program depends on some form of cooperation, nationally or internationally. The World Trade Institute is certainly a successful example (Watch out though, I am biased, since I work there)

I was thinking in applying to and LLM in Switzerland, but I decided not to basically for the following reasons:

1. Some programs are really expensive and I prefer to spend that money in the US or UK than in Switzerland. Moreover, if we consider than in the US or UK I can improve my English skills, while in Switzerland the languages are mostly German and French (which are not very "international" languages, even though Frenchs do not like to hear that).

2. Switzerland seems to be a very international place, willing to recept international organizations and international people (including sutdents, of course) but then is a nightmare to obtain resident permis in the Cantons.

3. Student residence are a disaster and its very difficult to rent an aparment being a student (besides that it is very expensive). This also contradicts the willing of recepting people from all over the world. They do not have a modern infraestracture to receive that people, buldings are stucked in time, and they do not want to build more.

All these, besides its a very boring place...

I was thinking in applying to and LLM in Switzerland, but I decided not to basically for the following reasons:

1. Some programs are really expensive and I prefer to spend that money in the US or UK than in Switzerland. Moreover, if we consider than in the US or UK I can improve my English skills, while in Switzerland the languages are mostly German and French (which are not very "international" languages, even though Frenchs do not like to hear that).

2. Switzerland seems to be a very international place, willing to recept international organizations and international people (including sutdents, of course) but then is a nightmare to obtain resident permis in the Cantons.

3. Student residence are a disaster and its very difficult to rent an aparment being a student (besides that it is very expensive). This also contradicts the willing of recepting people from all over the world. They do not have a modern infraestracture to receive that people, buldings are stucked in time, and they do not want to build more.

All these, besides its a very boring place...

Hmm, I can sure understand that you are rather willing to study in the UK or the US, but the reasons you mention are not quite true.

To 1.:
They are not more expensive than in the US and a lot of programs offer an exchange with a lot of universities abroad. And as far as I know, most of the classes are held in english...so you will learn legal english as well as german or in the western part of switzerland french. And even though english is the number one language, I also had the advantage knowing gemran and french beside english...it's a real advantage in a globalized world.

Ad 2:
Depending on where you are from, it's very easy to obtain a visa. Not to become a permanent resident, but at least a B Visa which allows you to stay in Switzerland and move around in all the cantons (EU citizens have it very easy)! An in particualr students never have a problem obtaining a visa or not more problems than elsewhere! I further know from experience that it is much more easier to obtain a permanent residency in Switzerland than in the US.

Ad 3:
Depending on which city it is not very easy to find a apartment for your own, but it's very easy to find an appartment to share with somebody. In most of the cities you will even find nice studios located in the mifddle of the respective town for way less than in London or NYC! The appartments usually are cleaner than in the US or UK, safer and the infrastructure is better. I know that in the most expensive place in Switzerland, which is Zurich, a friend of mine used to live in a studio in a very good quartier and paid 1'100 Swiss francs, which is about 750 Euro or 900 Dollar per month. Ans as I mentioned it is the most expensive place!

Last but not least, Switzerland still is a very safe and clean place, but of course it is not the same adventure as NYC or London. I truly understand why you are rather going to these countries but I just wanted to make sure that the reasons are a little bit corrected!

Hmm, I can sure understand that you are rather willing to study in the UK or the US, but the reasons you mention are not quite true.

To 1.:
They are not more expensive than in the US and a lot of programs offer an exchange with a lot of universities abroad. And as far as I know, most of the classes are held in english...so you will learn legal english as well as german or in the western part of switzerland french. And even though english is the number one language, I also had the advantage knowing gemran and french beside english...it's a real advantage in a globalized world.

Ad 2:
Depending on where you are from, it's very easy to obtain a visa. Not to become a permanent resident, but at least a B Visa which allows you to stay in Switzerland and move around in all the cantons (EU citizens have it very easy)! An in particualr students never have a problem obtaining a visa or not more problems than elsewhere! I further know from experience that it is much more easier to obtain a permanent residency in Switzerland than in the US.

Ad 3:
Depending on which city it is not very easy to find a apartment for your own, but it's very easy to find an appartment to share with somebody. In most of the cities you will even find nice studios located in the mifddle of the respective town for way less than in London or NYC! The appartments usually are cleaner than in the US or UK, safer and the infrastructure is better. I know that in the most expensive place in Switzerland, which is Zurich, a friend of mine used to live in a studio in a very good quartier and paid 1'100 Swiss francs, which is about 750 Euro or 900 Dollar per month. Ans as I mentioned it is the most expensive place!

Last but not least, Switzerland still is a very safe and clean place, but of course it is not the same adventure as NYC or London. I truly understand why you are rather going to these countries but I just wanted to make sure that the reasons are a little bit corrected!

I do not agree. First of all, I did not say I want to study in the US or UK, I just said that instead of paying an expensive LLM in Switzerland I would rather prefer to pay one in the US or UK. Regarding to the points:

1. I did not say that LLMs are more expensive, I just said that "some programs are really expensive" and defintely some of them are not as good as US or UK programs. For instance, the MILE Programme is 30,000 CHF, this is almost 18,000 GBP. With that money you can pay an extremly good program in the UK.

On the other hand, I did not say that classes are held in German or French. Of course some of them are held in English. What I said is that "in the US or UK I can improve my English skills" and there is no doubt that a person will better develop his English language skills in an English enviroment (US or UK) than in a German or French enviroment (Switzerland).

I do not think you can learn German or French in a 9 months academic program, but even if it is possible, that is not the point... of course knowking German of French would be an advantage, but with that criteria would also be an advantage knowing Mandarin, Spanish, Indi, etc. The universal language in these days is English.

2. The problem is not the visa, but the resident permit (e.g. Type B Resident Permit for students). I understant that if you are EU citezen its very easy, but most of the world is not Europe. Of course if it is not impossible, but its a nighmare. A friend of mine did a program that lasted 11 months (9 of classes and 2 of thesis). He only received a permit for 9 months, and it took him a lot of time and problems to extend it 2 months in order to prepare the thesis. Did he get it? Yes, but besides the time and problems, the point is that a place willing to recept international people should not make things so difficult, moreover if you are a student. I am really not interested in fighting with the Goverment in order to be allowed to prepare my thesis in the same place where I studied and in the same place where I have to submit it (what I find very reasonable).

3. Its absolutly not true that its easy to find an aparment to share. I do not know in Zurich, but in Geneva is very difficult. It is also very difficult to find a room in a student residence. It took 3 months to my friend to find a place. I do not know how the infrastracture is in NY, but defenitly the infrastructure in Switzerland is not better that the one in the UK. At least in Geneva. Fur sure, Swiss student residens are not as good as the one in the US and UK.

Last but not least, it might be true that Switzerland is a very safe, but usually all cities are safe if you know where to move... btw, at least Geneva is not clean....

thanks very much for your posts, they are much appreciated although mostly swiss as far as I can tell, but anyway :) maybe that's exactly the point, if it isn't for a highly specialised subject as humanitarian law for instance, the idea of Switzerland doesn't pop up in the quests for academic elysium..

I read the discussion and wanted to give some feedback:

1- I am a law graduate students from FRance university and moved to Geneva as I got my first programme of internship 10 years ago. I left after a couple of years of experience for the USA and came back to Geneva due family reason.
2- so I can really give an opinion of here and the US + having friends who graduated from UK - I can give some adivice
3- if you want to do an LLM as part of your career growth and want to embrace an international experience , and if you have chanc go go to the USA - Do that by no means. Don't come as a student in GVA hoping you will make a life here afterwards hoping you will find some job in the area. It is very very complicated, competition are hight because all international organizations have hired all way extremely educated people and majority of them do perform in areas where their skills are not fully utilised - this is because these organisation provide them a permit to stay around , a next pay tax and they can raise their kids quietly...but professionally they are very (in the majority case) frustrated. You coming here doing an LLM will not add something specific to here - there are a bunch of workers who go to school aside their job (they dislike) just to bring some more challenge in their life and most of the time they do an LLM and move inside the organization to change a position ...jobs in the legal fiel are rare and when one is out, 100000x CV arrive!
4- whether european, african, asian or us or uk, your chance to make it here is often link to who you know rather how much you know - in Geneva, it is key who you know because it is very small and everybody know everybody kind...Zurich I have no idea, but then you have to be willing to adjust to german culture...which is tiptop, net tie, show desire to learn their culture and language, introverted - and that is definitely not good when you come from abroad and you want to meet new culture...do not forget this is a mountain country so you should prove yourself for years before you get real admittance
5. personnally , I think Gva is very old middle age type thinking: they like to defend their system because they are afraid to be swallen by other big country: my french degree are not fully recognized and they have asked me to prove I have an average of 12/20 - which is excuse my language big bullshit! The french system (and I precise I am not french by birth or citzen ) is very though specially legal. 12/20 in French system is like being among top students because the French are greedy in giving you the right score that is how they are...when I went to the USA, the classes (law classes) i attended were for me a piece of cake comparin gto what I went through in France. The french are very noisy , chauvinist and all what you say , but the quality of their education is master piece! so if you want to do an LLM in Europe, why not Paris, like Monpellier or Aix - Plus you will love the life style and the intellect level / debate are much higher in France than here in Switzerland
6- Swiss is net and they have good schools too bu tnot for law - I attended just out of curisousity some classes there - I still don't understand why they require me to have a 12/20 to get admitted in 3rd year law school, whilst I have already a Master Degree in Law from France, they put me down 1 year , plus rejected me because i did not make 12/20 as an average in France...insane , total insane but the idea of it, is of course to protect their legal educatio system - and that can be in some way understanble but you can imagine my frustration: I have all th epermit and not 12/20 so therefore I can't pursue further studies in Law, as of course I have refused ot be downgraded to 3rd year!
6- Findng an apartment is not the worst part as long as you are willing to pay - if you share , minimum would be 500- 700 chf if you don't you are in trouble, students room are full full even swiss are going crazy with the system. I know of my swiss GF despite all the things she tried she could not find anything for a year...ended up subleting with 2 others ...but here again, it is like anywhere, a question of chance. I know some other who found in less than 1 month but these are always an exception, luck or born under the good start!:-)
7- I would trust the LLM program in GVA can be of a good quality but it will never match a US OR UK level - NEVER! Among all the bosses as lawyers I had, the best were the LLM USA - and trust me they were quite well respected in the companies I 've worked with.
8- as a student, Geneva is such a boring place and expensive!!! they really nice people, but something is missing to my taste: sens of humour, cultural life as in Paris, London, or NY, or Aix en Provence, or Montpellier - the atmosphere is dead and when they party, they are just drunk and smoky...underground life is weird and they smoke a lot of stuff...so do not expect the US student life type where the university compounds has a life in itself...
9- if you love skiing, then bingo and have the money for it, just do LLM here and make the best out of it but don't expect a GW or CA universtiy atmosphere type...they are just differently raised and tooooooooooooo way serious -
10- I have spent in total 10 years in this country and finally I am moving back to the USA - have a great time here, visited europe and so on, but the town is dead, nothing exciting for me...time to rap up and go to the USA - where people are definittely much cooler and easier than Swiss...my husband is half - swiss and he has enough of it too...once you have acquired anglosaxon culture , i think Switzerland is not that fun...but we don't have kids so we are not one the majoriy of expat who live with kids here...these ones have found a good place to raise their children so they sacrifice for them- I have friends they told me so...some have decided to live too because they taiught the USA would be a better place to educate their kids at least for the university level...
9- Last advice but not least , come here only if you have enough money - a beer cost 12chf in the evening...a pizza dinner will cost you around 20 $ ...you see not easy one!

good luck! LLM , GW is the best ever! all people i know who did it, ended up really well....hight scoring required for admittance...try to get there - and washington DC is as international as one can be ...and more exciting!

I can contribute a bit on the zurich /german side of things.

1. The lifestyle is a bit boring but way livelier than what Geneva offers, based on the above and colleagues who have lived there.

2. Student housing and housing in general is way harder to find in Geneva than ZH, although ZH is not easy but slighly better.

3. No idea about the LLM in Switz though. For the same price, i would imagine business and law schools are better value in the US or UK, having a US business degree myself makes me a bit biased but i think i took the right decision

4. One thing I can say is that Switz offers good opportunity to learn languages. So if one has already lived in say US or UK, then its good to come in and learn intensive German or French or even Italian.

5. Things are expensive but then again this country is for people with high salaries so if you have one you can buy and travel a fair bit.


Thats the ZH side of things but there is a lot happening here in the form of shows, theater, bars so more to do than Geneva and some US cities.

6.