Hi guys,
I am interested in doing an LLM in Australia. I was thinking of University of Melbourne, Monash University and Sydney University. Can somebody please rank these universities in terms of their LLM program? Thanks.

As far as I know, there is no ranking of Australian LLM programmes. If you look at the other rankings - http://www.australian-universities.com/rankings.php - all three universities seem to be very good, Sydney and Uni of Melbourne seem to be slightly ahead of Monash in terms of reputation though.

In the ranking of world universities 2004, Uni Melbourne is 82nd, Uni Sydney is ranked 101st-152nd, Monash 202nd-301st.

http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/Top%20100%20Asia%20Pacific%20Universities.htm

I guess, the crucial issue will be whether you prefer


Sydney (cliché: more "brash" and more "American")


or Melbourne (cliché: more sedate and European")

"Australians say that Sydney looks to Asia and San Francisco, and Melbourne to Europe. The truth is that both look increasingly American.

Even on a second visit, Sydney Harbour remains breathtaking. There cant be a city in the world, surely, that can beat it for dining by water surrounded by spectacular views, whether from The Wharf by the bridge, Bondi Beach, McMahons Point or the posh suburb of Vaucluse, with its view back across Rose Bay to the bridge.

But Melbourne runs Sydney close. With its pavement cafés on wide, tree-lined streets with sleek trams running down the middle or Southbank overlooking the Yarra River, it isnt wholly fanciful to conjure up Parisian boulevards or the Seine. A New Yorker would also feel at home among the towering skyscrapers overlooking the green parks which border the main business district."

travel.timesonline.co.uk

Hi Bluna,

Thanks for the info. The photographs were a pleasent surprise. Do you have any idea as to which of the two is the more expensive city to live in? Also, which one offers better job prospects? Thanks.

As a single student in Australia you will need approximately A$12,000-A$17,000 per year for living expenses such as accommodation, food, transport, textbooks and some spending money. This amount will vary depending where you live (city or country), whether you are in a high or low cost area, and your personal lifestyle. This amount does not include international airfares or tuition fees.

Costs of living are quite high both in Sydney and in Melbourne. Melbourne may be slightly less expensive, but in the end much will depend on whether you are lucky finding and affordable room or flat...

Thanks for all the info Bluna. Cheers!

Hi,
Although not an LLM student, I am currently undertaking a degree at the University of Sydney Law School. I give a very strong recommendation. We are located right in the central business district, accross the road from the Supreme Court, in the heart of Australia's highest concentration of legal proffessionals. At lunch time you are located in the best shopping area, and close to beautiful hyde park. Sydney University has Australia's oldest law school and the bachelor of law at sydney university is one of the toughest courses to get into in Australia. As a result, it has a group of very motivated students and carries significant prestige. A very large proportion of the staff (at least 1/4) have degrees from either harvard, yale, oxford or cambridge. Come here if you can !

Hi Ozbec,

Great to hear from someone who's actually pursuing undergrad law in Australia. I would be grateful if you could answer a few of my questions:

1) How is legal profession viewed in Australia? I mean, is the situation somewhat like US where it is one of the most popular career choice?
2) Do many international students come to Australia for LLM? A perusal of the threads on this website tells me that hardly anyone is interested in an Australian LLM although I don't quiet understand why?
3) What are the hot practice areas in Australia? Is it similar to US where Intellectual Property is quiet popular?
4) What is the scope of litigation in Australia? In what areas does one find the bulk of litigation?
5) Can foreign trained lawyers with a Australian LLM practice in Australia? Are there any requirements of a bar exam?
6) Between Sydney and Melbourne, which city offers better prospects for lawyers?
7) Which do you think are the top 3 universities in Australia to pursue an LLM degree?

I am aware these are a lot of questions and will consume a lot of your time but I shall be extremely thankful if you could answer them. Cheers!

Its very odd, but not one person on this forum has mentioned the Australian National Unviersity. The ANU is Australia's highest ranked university and has the countries best law school - consider it when you are weighing up your options. Also, Canberra is less expensive to live than Sydney or Melbourne. The ANU is also a more personal university than the big city universities (and ranked higher in the world/national rankings).

Hi Helper,

Thanks for the info. Are you currently studying law in Australia? Would it be possible for you to answer some of the questions I have asked Ozbec?

Thanks.

Hi AJ, sorry for not replying sooner. I can't answer all of your questions, but here's what I do know:
The Australian legal profession is generally prestigious, but not nearly to the same extent as in the US. Firstly graduate salaries are far lower, in Sydney, in the top firms you could expect to earn max $50k US dollars, (but the money increases far more quickly than in the US). Part of the explanation is that in Australia most people qualify as lawyers much younger, about 4-5yrs after finishing high school. That leads me to another thing I can really help you with. If you want to get admitted to practice in Sydney, the place to go find out about it is: http://www.lawsociety.com.au/page.asp?partID=15279. As for your question about IP, that happens to be the area I want to go into. All the big firms have specific groups that focus on this. There isn't a lot of IP litigation going on though, in the biotech area perhaps only one big case per year. Most IP work focuses on transactions etc. Hope that helps.

Oh yeah, Law Schools. The top three law schools are definitely University of Sydney, University of Melbourne and ANU. University of NSW is highly regarded too. Huge rivalry between UNSW and Sydney, so I'm not exactly giving impartial advice here!!!
I spent a year at ANU, Its a very good university but Canberra is the most boring city on the planet. Like a fake, small version of washington DC, without the poverty or snow. No people anywhere. Its like a strangely clean ghost town.

Hi all of you,
You all from America? I'm going to Australia this Aug and i plan to study commerce/law, double degree.
I chose the university of Melbourne, considering its better climate. I'm thinking of getting a master degree in America after the bachelor degree in Aus. I chose melbourne because it's more european like one of you has mentioned, so it'll be better to experience the two different kinds of culture and ways of education.(european and american)
Can any of you give me some more info about the university of melbourne of the city itself?
Thanks a lot.

the last sentence, *the university of melbourne or the city itself.
thanks!

Dear Ozbec,

I am extremely sorry for having not thanked you earlier. As a matter of fact, I have seen your reply only today and that through accidentally. Frankly, I had kind of given up on getting an answer and so wasn't checking on this thread. Please accept my apologies and thanks a lot for your comments. By the way, how would you rate Monash University in Melbourne? I went through the LLM course units description on their website and was quiet impressed. But then, am not sure of the true picture.

AJ.

AJ, I'll address your questions in reverse order. I'm a grad student at ANU Law School.

(7) Which are the top three in which to pursue an LLM?

-Broadly, speaking, I'd endorse the previous comment to the effect that Melbourne, ANU and Sydney are at the top, although it's hard to justify leaving UNSW out.

It does depend a little on whether you are more interested in teaching quality or research. As in the US and the UK, the prestige of a law school is determined primarily by its research output. On this measure, there is a widespread feeling that ANU and Melbourne have pulled away from the two Sydney schools over the last 5 years and that the Sydney schools are at a low ebb in terms of high profile researchers. No doubt, they'll recover. Have a look at the faculty lists from these law schools; if you are common law-trained, you should be able to assess the strength of the faculty from their publications.

I'll make some more specific comments about ANU.

First of all, the ANU has a peculiar structure. The Faculties (including the Law School) conduct undergraduate and postgrad teaching and research, whereas the Research Schools conduct exclusively research and postgrad supervision. Law profs are found both in the Faculty of Law (i.e., the law school) and in the Research School of Social Sciences. So, if you wish to look them up, check the Regulatory Institutions Network (http://regnet.anu.edu.au) and the Law Program in the Research School (http://lawrsss.anu.edu.au) as well as the Law School itself (http://law.anu.edu.au).

Second, ANU is popularly perceived (probably quite accurately) as a more 'academic' law school. It has a particular strength in jurisprudence and traditional links to the Oxford legal philosophy school. The Oxford legal philosophers, John Fleming, Patrick Atiyah, Peter Cane and Jane Stapleton are amongst former and current faculty members. Stapleton recently became the first foreigner appointed to the Council of the American Law Institute, for her work on product liability.

ANU's other obvious areas of strength are in constitutional, administrative, international and IP law.

I say this because if you are looking for a more practically-oriented, commercially focussed LLM, you may well do better at Melbourne or Sydney (with the obvious exception of IP, in which I note your interest).

(6) Which city has better prospects for lawyers - Melbourne or Sydney?

-With respect, silly question. Which of New York and Chicago has better prospects? The major Australian firms are in both. No Magic Circle firms operate in Australia. Of the major American firms, Sullivan & Cromwell are in both and Skadden has a small presence in Sydney. This is a huge generalization but if there's any difference, it's probably that there's more financial services work in Sydney and more corporate in Melbourne. Melbourne has traditionally had the lion's share of headquarters of Australian companies, whereas Sydney grabs most of the foreign companies and global i-banks. Plenty of litigation in both.

(5) Can foreign trained lawyers with an Australian LLM practise in Australia? Are there any requirements of a bar exam?

The short answer is no, an Australian LLM is not sufficient. It will depend which foreign country your law degree is from but you'll almost certainly have to do extra courses to fulfill the academic requirements.

In Australia, like the United Kingdom, to take the bar exam (though we do not really use that term) would mean that you would be seeking to become a Barrister. Barristers are specialist advocates, who must complete extra training. That varies from state-to-state. You are talking about admission as a solicitor. Australian law graduates must pass a 6-month (full-time) course before admission (in most states, at least). If you are US/UK/Canadian trained, you may be excused from some of that course but required to do other parts of it (at least ethics and trust accounting, I suspect).

(4) What is the scope of litigation in Aus? In what areas does one find the bulk of litigation?

Not quite as litigious as the US but not far off it. As to which areas you'd find the bulk of litigation - similar to the US. Although, we have been experiencing a particular boom in immigration litigation of late.

(3) What are the hot practice areas in Australia? Is IP quite popular?

Yes, IP is popular. The Australian commodities market is booming and therefore, there is a great deal of mining, energy and construction work available. Domestic M&A is strong, as is anything China related.

(2) Do many international students come to Australia for LLM? Why not?

No, very few do. I don't think that's explained by any lack of academic rigour. I suspect it is explained by the fact that Australia is a small and distant country! That said, in my experience of Magic Circle/Charmed Circle firms, Australian lawyers are very well regarded and the standard of academic legal education compares well.

(1) How is the legal profession viewed in Australia?

Very similarly to that in the U.S. The comments of the poster above about starting salaries are correct. Starting salaries are significantly lower but if you figure it out in Purchasing Power Parity terms, it doesn't look so bad. Australia is considerably cheaper than NY/Chicago/London.

Cheers

Hullo:

First, LordWilberforce, great post - you've clarified a lot of doubts I've had about studying for an LL.M in Australia.

I have been toying with the idea (of an Aus LLM) for some time now, but the costs and the lack of prospective job opportunities are reasons why I have not taken the plunge.

I would like to know a few more things:
(a) As an international student not trained in US/UK/Canada, what are the chances of getting paid part-time jobs/internships with law-firms while studying for an LLM, with little or no experience? Or in allied fields?

I am an Indian, with an LLB from Delhi, and am working as a journalist here, as what we call a 'legal reporter'. I am interested in pursuing an academic career, and hope to eventually get into research (IPR is my 'area of interest'), but I can't think of an international degree unless I stand a good chance of being able to pay back the hefty loan that I will have to take to study the course. On an Indian salary, it will be eons before I am out of penury.

(b) I know about the 6-month PG Dip in Legal Practise, but am a bit confused - is this the same academic qualification required to be eligible to work as a solicitor in your country?

(c) Because I have no prior research experience (we didn't have any thesis requirement in our undergrad degree; as a law student, I published a few research articles in mags/journals, but nothing more), and also because I have not fixed on a specific research topic, it has been recommended to me to apply for a coursework masters. I want to know if I can, mid-way through a course, (assuming I come up with a realistic research proposal, and find a guide, etc.), convert to a coursework-cum-research masters, and will that be enough to move towards a doctorate?

Okay, this is the real ranking for the best universties to study Law. It is based strictly on market demand and supply:
1. Sydney University Law School (99.65 UAI)
2. UNSW (99.15 UAI)
3. Monash
4. University of Melbourne
4. UTS (97.5 UAI)
5. Macquarie University (95.45 UAI)
6. Australian National University (95 UAI)

Hi SCS -

I'll try to answer your questions -

(a) As an international student not trained in US/UK/Canada, what are the chances of getting paid part-time jobs/internships with law-firms while studying for an LLM, with little or no experience?

(b) I know about the 6-month PG Dip in Legal Practise, but am a bit confused - is this the same academic qualification required to be eligible to work as a solicitor in your country?

(c) Because I have no prior research experience (we didn't have any thesis requirement in our undergrad degree; as a law student, I published a few research articles in mags/journals, but nothing more), and also because I have not fixed on a specific research topic, it has been recommended to me to apply for a coursework masters. I want to know if I can, mid-way through a course, (assuming I come up with a realistic research proposal, and find a guide, etc.), convert to a coursework-cum-research masters, and will that be enough to move towards a doctorate?

LLB Student in Sydney is obviously delusional. There is NO WAY that the University of Sydney is regarded as Australia's top law school (wishful thinking), or that Melbourne ranks below Monash.

By "demand and supply" I'll assume that you mean ENTER/UAI score.

First, this isn't a good measure across states -- I (and most people I know at Melbourne) were not prepared to leave Melbourne to study law. Why would we? Melbourne is generally regarded as superior to Sydney (see, eg, the recent ranking of universities internationally -- Melbourne = 19). Home-State loyalty and discrepancies in secondary school population sizes across states relative to faculty size mean that the market is distorted across States.

Second, your "demand and supply" approach isn't even applied correctly. The ENTER score required for direct entry into the Melbourne LLB is clearly higher than that required at Monash. One what possible basis could Melbourne be ranked lower than Monash, then? Pray tell.

Frankly, I don't care which law school is considered "the best". The label is meaningless (and subjective). Your post annoyed me, that's all.