ayun_2000, I don't think it is racial discrimination, but about not being a European citizen. I am from Australia and did an LLM in the UK. On finishing my LLM, I had no choice but to return to Australia, which was clear from the conditions of my original visa.

The fact is - and it is the same all around the world - that a student visa to do an LLM (or any other degree, whether in microbiology or basketweaving) is a STUDENT visa. It is not intended to be a work permit, except insofar as undertaking incidental work of not more than 20 hours per week to support your studies (eg in a Bar or Tesco).

Also, as an LLM is an academic - and not a professional qualification - it is a misconception to think that it will guarantee red carpet treatment at a Magic Circle firm - or even a High Street firm at that. There is a glut of qualified law graduates in the UK, and no country's migration rules will prioritise a non-citizen for a job where there is a citizen who is adequately qualified.

So, if you want to come and study for an LLM in the UK/Europe, do it with the very clear understanding that you are only here to get the LLM - if you want anything else, it is a separate process entirely, and prob not possible on a student visa.

That said, Scotland has a scheme for overeas graduates in any discipline from Scottish institutions (and remember Scotland is a distinct legal system from England) to remain for two years after graduation.

I also did QLTT with this hope and sort of assurance from many of the firms and also job agents that doing so is the first entry point to get into a firm. But having done that I realised that is not the case. The selection process is based first on your nationality, race and then contacts and may be then comes the degree etc. I am not so sure how beneficial QLTT would be for India either. All this hype around QLTT promoted by Law Society, according to me, is merely to cash in this craze for getting foreign degrees and also a joint promotion to open the legal sector in India again with this spin that it is beneficial for India which will never be the case. And that is exactly the mentality of most of these foreign insttutions offering LLM. LLM degress are cash cows for them where they milk the foreign students particulalry those from Asian countries with no real scope in the job market. I dont know about the US degrees but I am sure of European and UK degrees; of course you must keep out Universities like Cambridge, Oxford, Queen Mary and LSE from this trend but others are mostly run as money making machines and seen as a very good aspect of the respective economy. Think you are spending your money to support their economy. So far so so good. But what do you get in return-a mere degree with no international job prospect? I know so many Indians who did their LLMs from these little or not so well known Institutions spending substantial sums and returned to India after trying to find job and landing up in menial jobs in hotels etc and even back in India they either landed up in same job or struggled to make up for their lack of India experience. Believe me, law is still a very regional subject, a very culturally entrenched profession. These firms have a very discriminatory selection process. Based ont the same qualification they will take Australians, even Candians but rarely Indians. The few Indians that you may come across are rarely Indians from India but they are British Indians. And this is also becasue they want to push the India practice and want to lliberalise the market so they are putting up Indian faces in their firms. But earlier it was equally discriminatory against even British Indians who were culturally integrated with British society. They have same attitude towards Africans-even British Africans. Recently there was this minority legal practiioners report which did a survey and found that the law firms rarely employ Africans. Yes tomorrow if they found that in Nigeria there is a gold mine and they want to do legal business there they may start emplying nigerians but not before that. These firms see Indian market as a gold mine and thus are so ebnt upon to lobby the government to liberalise the market, conduct QLTT in Mumbai and Delhi, recruit penultimate year students from NLSU and give them training contracts but do they have a similar open policy for other Indian expereinced qualified lawyers? NO. So the moot question-Is there a benefit doing an LLM form these European Universities-depends on what one wants to do: If searching for jobs-forget it unless oyu are from Cambridge, LSE or Oxford and few others but that is also not that forthcoming. Want to go back to India-may be companies would give you some crdit for your foreign degree but not so much.QLTT-absolutely not UNLESS- you come with huge business and political contacts in India to provide enough business for law firms. Certainly not if dont have them and think that your talent and experience and LLM degree would give you a good job.

The selection process is based first on your nationality, race and then contacts and may be then comes the degree etc.

Yes they are taking Indians because of two prime reasons-one, they want Indian faces in their firm for the Indian practice group in sectors like M&A and finance; two, because by doing the first they can lobby for the liberalisation of Indian legal market. Did they have same policy earlier towards Indians even for British Indians?Do they have similar recruitment trend towards Africans or Arbas or Muslims or even Pakistanis or Bangldeshis or Srilankans?Do they have similar recruitment for Indian lawyers specialising in other sectors such as Media or IP laws?Will they have similar recruitement and retention policy if tomorrow Indian economy suffers a recession?Did they have similar recruitment trend in past towards Indian lawyers? Probably answer to all these questions is NO.

The examples you have cited are indeed good and congratualtions to them. And surely no firm or organisation will ever put out a policy stating that they would discriminate based on Nationality, race etc-legally they cant. Surely you will not find such policies stuck out on the notice board of the firms or on their websites. But such discriminatory practice exist-in a very covert, subtly visible and deeply entrenched manner which few of those who have made it, try to cover up by citing the examples as you have cited.
The question is very simple do these law firms are as open, non-discriminatory, unbiased, democratic as they pretend to be and they want the other legal markets to be? And second question is whether doing an LLM from these not so well known institutions, excluding the well knowns such as LSE, Oxford, Cambridge, Queen Mary and may be few others-worthwhile for getting jobs in these law firms?In all probabilities NOT.

It sounds to me like there is a lot of mis-information being circulated about what an LLM is. An LLM is NOT a professional qualification, and should never be done with a view to it being a quick entry point to the UK job market (or any other job market).

An LLM is an opportunity to deepen one's academic understanding of the law, and if you are an overseas student, to have the opportunity to experience tertiary education (and different academic experts) abroad.

Further, entry clearance to the UK to undertake an LLM is very clearly provided on the basis that the recipient of the visa will not remain in the UK after obtaining the qualification (except if you graduate from a Scottish institution, but re-qualifying in Scots law is three years of pain, even if you are English, and beyond the 2 year work in Scotland scheme).

If you want to practice in the UK, you will need to do the QLTT, and find work/obtain a work permit BEFORE arriving. This therefore may mean returning home and applying for positions from your home country after an LLM - work experience is probably more valuable than an LLM is this respect.

As for the Australians and Canadians who get work, the vast majority do this via an ancestry visa, which allows persons (of any nationality) who have one British grandparent to work in the UK. In my case, I have one parent who qualifies, but I myself am stuffed (as all my grandparents are Australian).

That said, the UK is more generous than most other countries - such as Australia, NZ, Canada, US (and India??) - that don't have ancestry visas and therefore I do not believe the process to be racist in the way that you allege. It is simply the reality that as a matter of law, these firms must employ locals (of whom there are thousands looking for work) before employing someone who requires a work permit, unless that person has specific skills, which to be absolutely honest, won't come from an LLM.

Thats very good. Most people are aware that a basic law degree is suffcient professional qualification[LL.B/JD] in their respective home countries to practice law in their home countries and to enahnce academic knowledge most of the countries have Unis providing LL.M.

People who set out to do LLMs outside their home countries, dont do so to gain academic knowledge unless they are doing it from some of the top most universities. The purpose of doing LLMs outside the home country is not to gain academic knowledge, the purpose is clearly to internationalise one's career and by 'internationalise', I mean in the job market-law firms and other organistions and not merely to hang the certificate on the wal of your home country.

And look at the various brochures and websites of these Institutions providing LLMs, they claim they provide and open the job markets.

People are well aware of the immigration requirements as they are set out clearly in the brochures but what these websites and brochures do not state or keep mum about is the real posibilities of the job market after doing LLM. Most of these brochures and website cite the steps or the positions the students have taken, which are not necessarily due to LLM as most go back to do what they were doing after having not found work. These websites and brochures also donot clarify the possible opportunities of an academic career after LLM as surely masters is a step towards a better academic understanding and career. Most of these institutions give an impression of heaven full of opportunities after LLM which is not the case and certainly do not give any clarification about the prospects of professional life. What clarification the last blogger has provided should be stated in the brochures more clearly and categorically in the websites and brochures of these institutions as a matter of fair practice in this trade becasue that is what these LLMs are basically not an avenue of an academic enlightment but places of monetary expenditure to get an LLM from institutions who treat the overseas students as money making machines without any prospect in the law firms.

The last blogger has not answered to the issues that I have raised about the recruitment procedure for african or muslim or similar people from minority groups. Therefore intake in these firms are governed not on the basis of calibre, knowledge and talent but on the basis of nationality, race and ancestry. Tell me why Australians or Candians [even with all that ancestry debate] are to be preferred over British- africans or muslims or even Indians. I have already stated the reason for recruiting Indians these days in the last entry.

Firstly I think it is really naive to suggest that Australians or Candians are given preference over British Africans/Muslims/Indians and would like you to prove that statement. Secondly the LLM is an academic qualification. Obviously people want to achieve something at the end of it but it isn't the fault of the institutions in question if that aim is completely unrealistic, most law firms paint a picture of an amazing social life and shiny buildings and don't point out that you will have to work 70 hours a week and your office won't be quite as shiny as the reception yet we don't suggest that they should have told us that. My experience has been that the best students of any nationality tend to be sucessful in what the aim to achieve from an LLM. I don't think that firms are in any way sacrificing quality. I do concede that those who are second rate will invariably be overlooked with preference given to a national of the country in question. In essence if the only institutions you get accepted to are ranked 100-104 in the league tables whether British or any other nationality you will struggle to get a job.

So if I'm getting this correctly, basically, go overseas do whatever degree I would and then basically be prepared to return home. Due to the fact that the immigrants laws are as wuch to provide jobs for citizens of the UK and EU prior to non citizens. Is this correct???? I appreciate everyone's responses and have taken them all into consideration. But I do however have a few more questions. Is it possible for me to undertake an internship at a UK law firm being a US citizens with my bachelor's degree, prior to entering law school. I would like to complete an internship over this summer preferably, if that is possible. I have applied to several law schools in the UK:

1. University of Aberdeen
2. Cambridge
3. Queen Mary
4. University of Kent
5. University of Birminham
Most of these programs were 2 year LLB courses. Meaning, I'll receive my LLB in 2 years instead of the usual 3, and then if possible try to get sponsorship, again if possible to obtain either my BVC or LPC. Any thaughts, questions, comments? Am I completely naive, or crazy?

Im currently doing a Graduate LLB Course - this is the University of London external degree in Singapore which is probably why I am in this predicament. I intend to either do my Bar or the LPC in the UK and continue to work there. Is this an impossibility for a foreigner? I know this has nothing to do with the LLM but there may be members on this forum who have may have some advice.

So if I'm getting this correctly, basically, go overseas do whatever degree I would and then basically be prepared to return home. Due to the fact that the immigrants laws are as wuch to provide jobs for citizens of the UK and EU prior to non citizens. Is this correct???? I appreciate everyone's responses and have taken them all into consideration. But I do however have a few more questions. Is it possible for me to undertake an internship at a UK law firm being a US citizens with my bachelor's degree, prior to entering law school. I would like to complete an internship over this summer preferably, if that is possible. I have applied to several law schools in the UK:

1. University of Aberdeen
2. Cambridge
3. Queen Mary
4. University of Kent
5. University of Birminham
Most of these programs were 2 year LLB courses. Meaning, I'll receive my LLB in 2 years instead of the usual 3, and then if possible try to get sponsorship, again if possible to obtain either my BVC or LPC. Any thaughts, questions, comments? Am I completely naive, or crazy?

now i am a little confused. i'm an american applying to LLB courses in the UK with the hope that i can eventually practice in the UK after its completion, and/or also get an LLM (maybe in the USA) to be able to sit for the bar in both the UK and the USA.

i realize that in the UK immigration laws and such are strict, but i was under the impression if one has a solid degree and good grades in a course that one could be hired by a law firm in the UK after one's education.

it seems that some people have implied there is covert racial discrimination against ethnic non Europeans and also against non citizens, and that it is pretty much impossible to get a job in the UK after finishing school. is this true?

could someone comment on this and try and answer some of the issues around my question?

I read about your profile on the blog. I wanted to take some advice from you regarding my career.I would really appreciate, if you would take your time out to respond to this email. I have completed my graduation from India (Jai hind college, mumbai) and I am planning to do LLb from the Uk. I have gotten into Kings college, London and have got few queries to clear from an Indian living in the UK. Being an international student, I do not have enough knowledge on the job prospects after this degree, so what would be your take on this? Secondly, I have thought that after completing my LLb from kings, I would take an LPc course to become a solicitor. Now do you think It would be feasible for me to spend so much at a strech, and expect an impressive return? Thirdly, After completing my studies, say after starting a professional life, If I have to return to my country then would I be getting jobs in the law firms? Also, I have enquired that the jurisdiction of India and the Uk is almost similar, so does it makes easier for the Indian students to work in both the countries?

Few of my friends are telling me that I should do LLb from India and take the masters degree from the UK, work there for few years and come back to India. I am in two minds because I have gotten into such a great college which supposedly offers a promising future and the quality of education is far better than any of the Indian institutes. Secondly, the cost of education in India is one-tenth of the cost of education in London, so sometimes I feel that India is a better option in terms of costs and returns.

I await your response and hope that your advise would help me to choose the best career option.

So if I'm getting this correctly, basically, go overseas do whatever degree I would and then basically be prepared to return home. Due to the fact that the immigrants laws are as wuch to provide jobs for citizens of the UK and EU prior to non citizens. Is this correct???? I appreciate everyone's responses and have taken them all into consideration. But I do however have a few more questions. Is it possible for me to undertake an internship at a UK law firm being a US citizens with my bachelor's degree, prior to entering law school. I would like to complete an internship over this summer preferably, if that is possible. I have applied to several law schools in the UK:

1. University of Aberdeen
2. Cambridge
3. Queen Mary
4. University of Kent
5. University of Birminham
Most of these programs were 2 year LLB courses. Meaning, I'll receive my LLB in 2 years instead of the usual 3, and then if possible try to get sponsorship, again if possible to obtain either my BVC or LPC. Any thaughts, questions, comments? Am I completely naive, or crazy?

So if I'm getting this correctly, basically, go overseas do whatever degree I would and then basically be prepared to return home. Due to the fact that the immigrants laws are as wuch to provide jobs for citizens of the UK and EU prior to non citizens. Is this correct???? I appreciate everyone's responses and have taken them all into consideration. But I do however have a few more questions. Is it possible for me to undertake an internship at a UK law firm being a US citizens with my bachelor's degree, prior to entering law school. I would like to complete an internship over this summer preferably, if that is possible. I have applied to several law schools in the UK:

1. University of Aberdeen
2. Cambridge
3. Queen Mary
4. University of Kent
5. University of Birminham
Most of these programs were 2 year LLB courses. Meaning, I'll receive my LLB in 2 years instead of the usual 3, and then if possible try to get sponsorship, again if possible to obtain either my BVC or LPC. Any thaughts, questions, comments? Am I completely naive, or crazy?