I'm new to this forum, but have learned a lot reading through all of the posts. The advice on whether to get a JD instead of an LLM has been scattered throughout this message board, but I wanted to start a new thread on this topic for those of us in this dilemma!

To summarize others' posts, it all "depends". Some people are quite lucky and get offers in NY at a young age with an LLM, but others end up having to back to their home countries. Many have mentioned that the environment is more favorable to those from common law and/or English-speaking countries (UK, Canada, Australia, followed by India and Singapore), and also that work experience is taken into consideration.

Before I start explaining my profile, please understand that this is NOT an effort to self-promote, but rather an attempt to get a realistic perspective on which path to take. I'm South American and speak English fluently but with a slight accent (I say this because there was a post about partners not receiving foreign accents favorably). I went to a top law school in my country, and worked part-time in one of the big law firms while I was studying. I want to work in the US ... possibly my marriage to an American can be the motivation. :) That said, obtaining a work visa won't be an issue.

I had always planned to do an LLM (like many of my colleagues), but after doing some research I'm a bit worried about career prospects in the States if I don't have a JD. One post was quite direct in saying that if you want to work in the US, don't do an LLM, and that many law firms only recruit JDs.

Okay, so I've rambled enough. I guess my main question is for those of us coming from top law schools in our own civil law countries, but who also have some relevant work experience ... to JD or not to JD?

Well, I'm Italian. We have civil-law and usually have bad english accent.
All the people I know who did a LLM told me that working in US is ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE. This is also said by american universities.
As a LLM you should:
1) be almost native speaker;
2) be at least in top 5% of your class;
3) be admitted to NY BAR;
4) last but not least, having strong strong connections.

As a JD you don't have 1 and 2, and, at the same time, 3 and 4 will be easier.

Well, that's not encouraging. I don't think I can ever really lose this Spanish accent (which is certainly not as romantic-sounding as your Italian accent!), and my only connections are far outside the borders of the US.

As for JD programs, I know that some schools will waive the first year for foreign lawyers. However, another post says that law firms are looking for a 3-yr JD. I'm just wondering whether it would be okay to go ahead and waive that first year (and thus save a lot of money), as long as it doesn't diminish the JD degree. Any thoughts?

Well, I'm Italian. We have civil-law and usually have bad english accent.
All the people I know who did a LLM told me that working in US is ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE.

Hmmm... how does it fit into what Kazaf (current LL.M. student at HLS) said about his class - that already at this point approx 50 of his colleagues have job offers in the US?
I personally know a girl (civil law country, not native speaker, without impressive job experience, still a very good student) who had an offer from NY Skadden office just after she graduated from HLS LL.M. program.
We've covered all these condradictory views / stories so many times on this forum...

Yes, I know that the topic has been covered, but almost all posts reference training in common law countries rather than civil. Also, I haven't been able to find anything on whether or not my already having permission to work in the States (thus, no need for visa sponsorship) makes any difference.

i think if you do well in your LLM at either harvard or yale, then your chances are much better.

remember, all US students have to do is actually get admitted into harvard or yale and then they're done - few firms care about the grades/ranking of a harvard/yale grad in the way they would about a fordham, american uni, or even nyu grad.

however, getting into either the JD or LLM progam at harvard/yale is no easy task.


Hmmm... how does it fit into what Kazaf (current LL.M. student at HLS) said about his class - that already at this point approx 50 of his colleagues have job offers in the US?
I personally know a girl (civil law country, not native speaker, without impressive job experience, still a very good student) who had an offer from NY Skadden office just after she graduated from HLS LL.M. program.
We've covered all these condradictory views / stories so many times on this forum...

pash:

i'm half italian and half british. why is it that continental europeans (esp. france, spain, italy) don't speak english as well as many central and northern europeans?

i thought it was maybe because it's harder coming from a latin-based language, but then have noticed that many asians and south americans speak better engish, so it must be something to do with culture or education in these countries - i guess english isn't taught from an early age in the way it is much of asia, the americas, and northern europe/scandinavia.

mind you, my italian is pretty crap.

Well, I'm Italian. We have civil-law and usually have bad english accent.
All the people I know who did a LLM told me that working in US is ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE. This is also said by american universities.
As a LLM you should:
1) be almost native speaker;
2) be at least in top 5% of your class;
3) be admitted to NY BAR;
4) last but not least, having strong strong connections.

As a JD you don't have 1 and 2, and, at the same time, 3 and 4 will be easier.

my advice is to do the LLM, and if you don't have a job offer by half way thru your second/last semester, transfer into the JD program. that's what i did. if you can get reallly good grades (like top 5/10%) in your LLM classes, then you will probably be offered a scholarship (or increase on one).

I'm new to this forum, but have learned a lot reading through all of the posts. The advice on whether to get a JD instead of an LLM has been scattered throughout this message board, but I wanted to start a new thread on this topic for those of us in this dilemma!

To summarize others' posts, it all "depends". Some people are quite lucky and get offers in NY at a young age with an LLM, but others end up having to back to their home countries. Many have mentioned that the environment is more favorable to those from common law and/or English-speaking countries (UK, Canada, Australia, followed by India and Singapore), and also that work experience is taken into consideration.

Before I start explaining my profile, please understand that this is NOT an effort to self-promote, but rather an attempt to get a realistic perspective on which path to take. I'm South American and speak English fluently but with a slight accent (I say this because there was a post about partners not receiving foreign accents favorably). I went to a top law school in my country, and worked part-time in one of the big law firms while I was studying. I want to work in the US ... possibly my marriage to an American can be the motivation. :) That said, obtaining a work visa won't be an issue.

I had always planned to do an LLM (like many of my colleagues), but after doing some research I'm a bit worried about career prospects in the States if I don't have a JD. One post was quite direct in saying that if you want to work in the US, don't do an LLM, and that many law firms only recruit JDs.

Okay, so I've rambled enough. I guess my main question is for those of us coming from top law schools in our own civil law countries, but who also have some relevant work experience ... to JD or not to JD?

My feeling is that if you really want to stay in the US and practice law you should get a J.D. First, with only an LL.M, you would not be eligible to be licensed in all 50 states. Second, because you are a foreign attorney, you can probably get your J.D. in only 2 years, which is only 1 year longer than an LL.M. I know Northwestern has a 2 year J.D. program for foreign lawyers.

Thanks GlobeT for starting this thread. Lot of ground has been covered in Cocos thread titled LLM vs NY bar. Lot of valuable inputs by Coco, UEL, Richard. Thanks a lot for those inputs guys. I would like to put down what I have understood from these various posts.( I may be wrong on many of the points below.wouldnt be the first time, and certainly wouldnt be the last. Please correct any mistakes anyone finds.)

As I see, the goal is (at the end of the good education and $60K) to get a job in US. (At least, it is for me, just to break even the loan.)

As I see it, there are 3 paths.
Path 1: Bar exam with just our LLB degrees
Path 2: LLM -- Bar Exam -- Look for Job
Path 3:JD -- Bar exam -- Job

Path 1: Being able to give bar exam (NY or CA) with just our LLB degrees.
There seems to be a consensus on this
1.1)People with LLBs from civil law countries can not take bar exam
1.2)People with LLBs from common law countries can take bar exam if their LLB is from UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand or South Africa. ( Leaves me out. I am from India)
Jobs for Path 1: Probably none.

Path 2: LLM - Bar - Look for Job
People with LLM can take NY and CA bar.
Jobs for Path 2: No clear data available.

Path3: JD
JDs can take bar in any state. Also, if u manage within top 10% from top school, job is almost certain.

I think, for me, the best would be what Richard has suggested. Two year JD from Northwestern. Or may be one year LLM from Northwestern and then while looking for job, transfer LLM credits to JD. If one gets a job with just LLM, nothing like it. But if not, with a JD coming in one year, chances are much higher. (Though I will have to check on thransfer of credits from LLM to JD)

What do u guys say?

(Lets also assume that we all are from the top law schools from our respective countries and have managed to be within top 5%. Reading some of ur previous posts, this assumption would be correct. Just prevents what GlobeT calls attempt to self promote or to put on I am better than u attitude, and as we all know, both of which eventually do not help any of us. Thanks)

I would also like to request Coco to join the thread.

Thanks and regards.

Found some info on nortwestern
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/graduate/jd2.html

"Northwestern is one of the first law schools in the country to offer a Two-Year JD program for foreign-educated attorneys. Students who are admitted to the program receive one year of credit for their foreign law degree. Two-Year JD students must complete the required coursework for JD students during their first year. The second year is spent taking elective courses. Two-Year JD students are completely integrated with American students in our regular JD program. Graduates of the Two-Year JD program will receive a Juris Doctor degree, making them eligible to take the bar examination in any U.S. state. "
Thanks Richard.

Also from the same site i.e. http://www.law.northwestern.edu/graduate/jd2.html

"Students in the Two-Year JD program have access to the Center for Career Strategy and Advancement. An orientation for first-year students takes place in October. In January, the career office hosts a small on-campus interview program for first-year students. It is important to note that most first-year students find their summer jobs through an outside job search. Students are therefore encouraged to make individual appointments with the career staff to discuss specific career goals. During the second year, students may participate in the Fall On-Campus Interview program, which attracts more than 350 firms from across the nation."
Sounds very encouraging to me. I am sure all of us are capable of getting job(s) if there are 350+ interested law firms.
Once again, Thanks Richard. Made my decision much easier.

I'm new to this forum, but have learned a lot reading through all of the posts. The advice on whether to get a JD instead of an LLM has been scattered throughout this message board, but I wanted to start a new thread on this topic for those of us in this dilemma!

To summarize others' posts, it all "depends". Some people are quite lucky and get offers in NY at a young age with an LLM, but others end up having to back to their home countries. Many have mentioned that the environment is more favorable to those from common law and/or English-speaking countries (UK, Canada, Australia, followed by India and Singapore), and also that work experience is taken into consideration.

Before I start explaining my profile, please understand that this is NOT an effort to self-promote, but rather an attempt to get a realistic perspective on which path to take. I'm South American and speak English fluently but with a slight accent (I say this because there was a post about partners not receiving foreign accents favorably). I went to a top law school in my country, and worked part-time in one of the big law firms while I was studying. I want to work in the US ... possibly my marriage to an American can be the motivation. :) That said, obtaining a work visa won't be an issue.

I had always planned to do an LLM (like many of my colleagues), but after doing some research I'm a bit worried about career prospects in the States if I don't have a JD. One post was quite direct in saying that if you want to work in the US, don't do an LLM, and that many law firms only recruit JDs.

Okay, so I've rambled enough. I guess my main question is for those of us coming from top law schools in our own civil law countries, but who also have some relevant work experience ... to JD or not to JD?

There are several two year JD programs available other than Northwestern. Most law schools will give you advanced standing even if it isn't stated on their websites. If you phone admissions departments they will say your transcripts and past expereinces will need to be evaluated before making a determination. I know in Florida Stetson has a two year JD for foreign grads, but others do as well, even if it isn't advertised. That said you will still be required to do the LSAT test, which is a pain because it's tedious and only given twice a year....

In regards to what IntLaw was saying, Irish law graduates may also immediately qualify to take the New York bar as Ireland uses the common law system