LLM Discussions

Foreign lawyer in the US? You don't need LLM.


smartguy
To all foreign lawyers in the US (including myself): I hope we all agree on one thing that LLM will never replace JD degree.
If you intend to practice law in the US with LLM you have to understand that you are "handicapped" (class B if it sounds better) from educational point of view.
If all you want from LLM is to be able to sit for NY bar exam, i think i have good news how to save admission headaches and $25,000 tuition + another $10,000 for living expenses.
Here is what you can do:
Stage One: Get admitted to your home Bar.
Stage Two: Take and pass California bax exam as attorney admitted in foreign jurisdiction.
Stage Three: no no no, just two.
Congratulations. You saved $35,000, one year of your life, admission headaches AND you can call your self US attorney now.
Questions?
To all foreign lawyers in the US (including myself): I hope we all agree on one thing that LLM will never replace JD degree.
If you intend to practice law in the US with LLM you have to understand that you are "handicapped" (class B if it sounds better) from educational point of view.
If all you want from LLM is to be able to sit for NY bar exam, i think i have good news how to save admission headaches and $25,000 tuition + another $10,000 for living expenses.
Here is what you can do:
Stage One: Get admitted to your home Bar.
Stage Two: Take and pass California bax exam as attorney admitted in foreign jurisdiction.
Stage Three: no no no, just two.
Congratulations. You saved $35,000, one year of your life, admission headaches AND you can call your self US attorney now.
Questions?
quote
kem
Hi there, u want to say that i am able (not only me) to become US attorney without US education?
Might be, but one year as LLM in USA (ivy-leaque) will give me more that education:
1) Lets agree that my language skills will much more increase
2) Without LLM in US univ.(ivy-leaque) i will "handicapped" (class B) :)
3) LLM in USA give opportunity to learn american law (laws) in real circumstances
4) And not save one year but spend it in brilliant great community of US ivy-leaque univ.
It might be that anybody will not agree with me but I think in such a way........
By the way, i have graduate univ. in my home country but i think i need LLM in USA to feel myself professional than foreign attorney.......Regards
Hi there, u want to say that i am able (not only me) to become US attorney without US education?
Might be, but one year as LLM in USA (ivy-leaque) will give me more that education:
1) Lets agree that my language skills will much more increase
2) Without LLM in US univ.(ivy-leaque) i will "handicapped" (class B) :)
3) LLM in USA give opportunity to learn american law (laws) in real circumstances
4) And not save one year but spend it in brilliant great community of US ivy-leaque univ.
It might be that anybody will not agree with me but I think in such a way........
By the way, i have graduate univ. in my home country but i think i need LLM in USA to feel myself professional than foreign attorney.......Regards
quote
smartguy
Hi there, u want to say that i am able (not only me) to become US attorney without US education?
Might be, but one year as LLM in USA (ivy-leaque) will give me more that education:
1) Lets agree that my language skills will much more increase
2) Without LLM in US univ.(ivy-leaque) i will "handicapped" (class B) :)
3) LLM in USA give opportunity to learn american law (laws) in real circumstances
4) And not save one year but spend it in brilliant great community of US ivy-leaque univ.
It might be that anybody will not agree with me but I think in such a way........
By the way, i have graduate univ. in my home country but i think i need LLM in USA to feel myself professional than foreign attorney.......Regards

I totally agree with you with regard to spending one great year of your life in one of the US law school.
My idea is likely to seem more attractive to those who consider LLM as trampline to admission to NY or any other Bar and who do not have extra $35,000 and/or do not want to sacrifice one year for of their life to academic studies of law.
As for language skill, i am not sure that LLM is a right place to improve English language skills.
<blockquote>Hi there, u want to say that i am able (not only me) to become US attorney without US education?
Might be, but one year as LLM in USA (ivy-leaque) will give me more that education:
1) Lets agree that my language skills will much more increase
2) Without LLM in US univ.(ivy-leaque) i will "handicapped" (class B) :)
3) LLM in USA give opportunity to learn american law (laws) in real circumstances
4) And not save one year but spend it in brilliant great community of US ivy-leaque univ.
It might be that anybody will not agree with me but I think in such a way........
By the way, i have graduate univ. in my home country but i think i need LLM in USA to feel myself professional than foreign attorney.......Regards
</blockquote>
I totally agree with you with regard to spending one great year of your life in one of the US law school.
My idea is likely to seem more attractive to those who consider LLM as trampline to admission to NY or any other Bar and who do not have extra $35,000 and/or do not want to sacrifice one year for of their life to academic studies of law.
As for language skill, i am not sure that LLM is a right place to improve English language skills.
quote
kem
Yes, i agree with u, but i think that i can have a big chanse to find job with higher salary with degree from ivy-leaque? isnt it?
By the way, do u really think that mya language skills will not increase after one year in USA.?
Because i am planning to admit US ivy-leaque next year......
If i am not mistaken, LLM students must have a lot of practice ( i mean English)
Yes, i agree with u, but i think that i can have a big chanse to find job with higher salary with degree from ivy-leaque? isnt it?
By the way, do u really think that mya language skills will not increase after one year in USA.?
Because i am planning to admit US ivy-leaque next year......
If i am not mistaken, LLM students must have a lot of practice ( i mean English)
quote
smartguy
Yes, i agree with u, but i think that i can have a big chanse to find job with higher salary with degree from ivy-leaque? isnt it?
By the way, do u really think that mya language skills will not increase after one year in USA.?
Because i am planning to admit US ivy-leaque next year......
If i am not mistaken, LLM students must have a lot of practice ( i mean English)

All I am saying is that LLM is not the place to implove your English skills. You are supposed to apply them. I am quite convinced that if you take Bar preparation course from very reputable company or will hire private tutor your language skills (writing not oral) will amaze you. LLM will not teach you legal skills as much as Bar review course will.
<blockquote>Yes, i agree with u, but i think that i can have a big chanse to find job with higher salary with degree from ivy-leaque? isnt it?
By the way, do u really think that mya language skills will not increase after one year in USA.?
Because i am planning to admit US ivy-leaque next year......
If i am not mistaken, LLM students must have a lot of practice ( i mean English)</blockquote>
All I am saying is that LLM is not the place to implove your English skills. You are supposed to apply them. I am quite convinced that if you take Bar preparation course from very reputable company or will hire private tutor your language skills (writing not oral) will amaze you. LLM will not teach you legal skills as much as Bar review course will.
quote
Anurag
Hi smartguy,

You seem to know a lot. Can you please advice me as to the following questions:
--What are the job oppurtunities for a foreign lawyer in the US(with or without LLM)?
--What sort of salaries can they expect after clearing the Bar?
--How easy it is to get a job? Can you rate it on a scale of 10?
--Are there any particular practice areas in which foreign lawyers have a better chance of getting a job? Conversely, are there any areas which are a strict no-no for foreign lawyers?
--Can foreign lawyers expect to make it big in the field of litigation?
--Is there any sort of bias against foreign lawyers especially against asians?

Your advice is highly appreciated. Thanks. Cheers!
Hi smartguy,

You seem to know a lot. Can you please advice me as to the following questions:
--What are the job oppurtunities for a foreign lawyer in the US(with or without LLM)?
--What sort of salaries can they expect after clearing the Bar?
--How easy it is to get a job? Can you rate it on a scale of 10?
--Are there any particular practice areas in which foreign lawyers have a better chance of getting a job? Conversely, are there any areas which are a strict no-no for foreign lawyers?
--Can foreign lawyers expect to make it big in the field of litigation?
--Is there any sort of bias against foreign lawyers especially against asians?

Your advice is highly appreciated. Thanks. Cheers!

quote
Shumelka
To all foreign lawyers in the US (including myself): I hope we all agree on one thing that LLM will never replace JD degree.
If you intend to practice law in the US with LLM you have to understand that you are "handicapped" (class B if it sounds better) from educational point of view.
If all you want from LLM is to be able to sit for NY bar exam, i think i have good news how to save admission headaches and $25,000 tuition + another $10,000 for living expenses.
Here is what you can do:
Stage One: Get admitted to your home Bar.
Stage Two: Take and pass California bax exam as attorney admitted in foreign jurisdiction.
Stage Three: no no no, just two.
Congratulations. You saved $35,000, one year of your life, admission headaches AND you can call your self US attorney now.
Questions?


You're right about the way of taking the BAr and starting practicing. However, let's put it this way, nobody needs you here. Most of the foreign lawyers whom I know started their own practice after passing the bar exam, because they couldn't find a job in American companies. I've done some research in LexisNexis. About ten lawyers from my country got jobs at well known American law firms after obtaining their Master degrees. Two of them completed J.D. programs after having passed the bar exams in different jurisdictions.

I suppose that LL.M will increase my employability in the US. J.D. would be certainly better, but I'm not ready to be in a school until I'm 37. The California bar association allows me to take the bar exam now, although I'm admitted to practice in a civil law country. However, a preliminary job search has left me with a standard answer: "You have a very impressive resume, but we don't know what to do with you".
<blockquote>To all foreign lawyers in the US (including myself): I hope we all agree on one thing that LLM will never replace JD degree.
If you intend to practice law in the US with LLM you have to understand that you are "handicapped" (class B if it sounds better) from educational point of view.
If all you want from LLM is to be able to sit for NY bar exam, i think i have good news how to save admission headaches and $25,000 tuition + another $10,000 for living expenses.
Here is what you can do:
Stage One: Get admitted to your home Bar.
Stage Two: Take and pass California bax exam as attorney admitted in foreign jurisdiction.
Stage Three: no no no, just two.
Congratulations. You saved $35,000, one year of your life, admission headaches AND you can call your self US attorney now.
Questions?
</blockquote>

You're right about the way of taking the BAr and starting practicing. However, let's put it this way, nobody needs you here. Most of the foreign lawyers whom I know started their own practice after passing the bar exam, because they couldn't find a job in American companies. I've done some research in LexisNexis. About ten lawyers from my country got jobs at well known American law firms after obtaining their Master degrees. Two of them completed J.D. programs after having passed the bar exams in different jurisdictions.

I suppose that LL.M will increase my employability in the US. J.D. would be certainly better, but I'm not ready to be in a school until I'm 37. The California bar association allows me to take the bar exam now, although I'm admitted to practice in a civil law country. However, a preliminary job search has left me with a standard answer: "You have a very impressive resume, but we don't know what to do with you".
quote
smartguy
Hi smartguy,

You seem to know a lot. Can you please advice me as to the following questions:
--What are the job oppurtunities for a foreign lawyer in the US(with or without LLM)?
--What sort of salaries can they expect after clearing the Bar?
--How easy it is to get a job? Can you rate it on a scale of 10?
--Are there any particular practice areas in which foreign lawyers have a better chance of getting a job? Conversely, are there any areas which are a strict no-no for foreign lawyers?
--Can foreign lawyers expect to make it big in the field of litigation?
--Is there any sort of bias against foreign lawyers especially against asians?

Your advice is highly appreciated. Thanks. Cheers!



Intuition whispers to my ear you have never been to the us before. am i right?
let's start with simple facts. once you get admitted you're not foreign attorney anymore.
if you are looking for self employed carrering i doubt your client will ever inquire which school have you graduated from.
if you're looking for employment in top notch law firms... well you have to be damn good... at least better than your other American candidates.
as for money i think with no substantial experience you can start with $2,500-3,000/month.
Litigation is not the field where you can make big money, i would say Intellectual Property is the most money attractive field now.
Believe me you will not be able to handle 8 hours deposition in English. You don't have to. Think about your strong side. English is obviously not the one. No offense, Neither it is mine. I think if you can pass US bar exam and find great job in your home country you can make much more than here. Don't get me wrong, it's not about competition. There 300,000 members in California Bar. If you're able to find your niche here i welcome you to do so. If you think your strong side in your home law - pass the Bar here and go for it.
<blockquote>Hi smartguy,

You seem to know a lot. Can you please advice me as to the following questions:
--What are the job oppurtunities for a foreign lawyer in the US(with or without LLM)?
--What sort of salaries can they expect after clearing the Bar?
--How easy it is to get a job? Can you rate it on a scale of 10?
--Are there any particular practice areas in which foreign lawyers have a better chance of getting a job? Conversely, are there any areas which are a strict no-no for foreign lawyers?
--Can foreign lawyers expect to make it big in the field of litigation?
--Is there any sort of bias against foreign lawyers especially against asians?

Your advice is highly appreciated. Thanks. Cheers!

</blockquote>

Intuition whispers to my ear you have never been to the us before. am i right?
let's start with simple facts. once you get admitted you're not foreign attorney anymore.
if you are looking for self employed carrering i doubt your client will ever inquire which school have you graduated from.
if you're looking for employment in top notch law firms... well you have to be damn good... at least better than your other American candidates.
as for money i think with no substantial experience you can start with $2,500-3,000/month.
Litigation is not the field where you can make big money, i would say Intellectual Property is the most money attractive field now.
Believe me you will not be able to handle 8 hours deposition in English. You don't have to. Think about your strong side. English is obviously not the one. No offense, Neither it is mine. I think if you can pass US bar exam and find great job in your home country you can make much more than here. Don't get me wrong, it's not about competition. There 300,000 members in California Bar. If you're able to find your niche here i welcome you to do so. If you think your strong side in your home law - pass the Bar here and go for it.

quote
I heard about Cal bar exam some time ago, however the bar organization requires some proof that a foreign lawyer is admitted to practice in his home country.

In Russia, for example, you can practise law as soon as you finish the law faculty i.e. there is no need for a special license unless you want to be an attorney in criminal cases.

So, how can I prove that I am admitted to Russian practise?
Do I need to submit only my diploma?
I heard about Cal bar exam some time ago, however the bar organization requires some proof that a foreign lawyer is admitted to practice in his home country.

In Russia, for example, you can practise law as soon as you finish the law faculty i.e. there is no need for a special license unless you want to be an attorney in criminal cases.

So, how can I prove that I am admitted to Russian practise?
Do I need to submit only my diploma?
quote
smartguy
I heard about Cal bar exam some time ago, however the bar organization requires some proof that a foreign lawyer is admitted to practice in his home country.

In Russia, for example, you can practise law as soon as you finish the law faculty i.e. there is no need for a special license unless you want to be an attorney in criminal cases.

So, how can I prove that I am admitted to Russian practise?
Do I need to submit only my diploma?


Legaldocs,
I am Russian law graduate and I am fully aware of what is going on in Russia. It is unfortunate to me that Russia does not recognize EXCLUSIVITY of legal profession. Anyone can represent in Russian court. It is shame and hopefully one day Russians will change the law and prohibit practice of law by laymen.
As for now, let me stress out again, you have to be admitted to any Bar, which means you have to be the member of Russian Bar. If you graduate from Russian Law school and have 2 years of experience in legal field you can take Russian Bar exam and pass it. Believe me it is 10 times easier than Bar exam in the States.
<blockquote>I heard about Cal bar exam some time ago, however the bar organization requires some proof that a foreign lawyer is admitted to practice in his home country.

In Russia, for example, you can practise law as soon as you finish the law faculty i.e. there is no need for a special license unless you want to be an attorney in criminal cases.

So, how can I prove that I am admitted to Russian practise?
Do I need to submit only my diploma?</blockquote>

Legaldocs,
I am Russian law graduate and I am fully aware of what is going on in Russia. It is unfortunate to me that Russia does not recognize EXCLUSIVITY of legal profession. Anyone can represent in Russian court. It is shame and hopefully one day Russians will change the law and prohibit practice of law by laymen.
As for now, let me stress out again, you have to be admitted to any Bar, which means you have to be the member of Russian Bar. If you graduate from Russian Law school and have 2 years of experience in legal field you can take Russian Bar exam and pass it. Believe me it is 10 times easier than Bar exam in the States.
quote
Anurag
Hi smartguy,

Thanks a lot for your prompt and detailed reply. But do let me know what gives you the impression that English is not my strong side?

Thanks.
Hi smartguy,

Thanks a lot for your prompt and detailed reply. But do let me know what gives you the impression that English is not my strong side?

Thanks.
quote
Smartguy,

Cal bar is good only if you have a degree from the country of common law system.

Its written at their page that recognition process for such person is much easier; besides the education in state of continental law system is only counted towards the general education.

Therefore, in my opinion, LLM/JD is necessary for sitting for any US bar exam. However, if you want to practise in Russia, I dont thnik that one should bother with the US bar exam.
Smartguy,

Cal bar is good only if you have a degree from the country of common law system.

Its written at their page that recognition process for such person is much easier; besides the education in state of continental law system is only counted towards the general education.

Therefore, in my opinion, LLM/JD is necessary for sitting for any US bar exam. However, if you want to practise in Russia, I dont thnik that one should bother with the US bar exam.
quote
smartguy
Smartguy,

Cal bar is good only if you have a degree from the country of common law system.

Its written at their page that recognition process for such person is much easier; besides the education in state of continental law system is only counted towards the general education.

Therefore, in my opinion, LLM/JD is necessary for sitting for any US bar exam. However, if you want to practise in Russia, I dont thnik that one should bother with the US bar exam.


Legal docs,

I suggest you review the info that you posted. I repeat again: CA Bar admits foreign attorney with no matted what legal background you 're coming from. Foreign attorney means a person ADMITTED to th Bar. The fact that you're LAW graduate does not automatically makes you an attorney. Is it more clear now?
Just FYI, I spoke with US attorney who worked 8 years in Moscow in one of the reputable American law offices. He confirmed that US Bar will certainly put you in better position for him as compared to other Russian law graduates. He passed this exam, he know it's not easy, he knows it is a hallmark of good lawyer, he knows that whoever passed it posses necessary lawyering skills.
<blockquote>Smartguy,

Cal bar is good only if you have a degree from the country of common law system.

Its written at their page that recognition process for such person is much easier; besides the education in state of continental law system is only counted towards the general education.

Therefore, in my opinion, LLM/JD is necessary for sitting for any US bar exam. However, if you want to practise in Russia, I dont thnik that one should bother with the US bar exam.</blockquote>

Legal docs,

I suggest you review the info that you posted. I repeat again: CA Bar admits foreign attorney with no matted what legal background you 're coming from. Foreign attorney means a person ADMITTED to th Bar. The fact that you're LAW graduate does not automatically makes you an attorney. Is it more clear now?
Just FYI, I spoke with US attorney who worked 8 years in Moscow in one of the reputable American law offices. He confirmed that US Bar will certainly put you in better position for him as compared to other Russian law graduates. He passed this exam, he know it's not easy, he knows it is a hallmark of good lawyer, he knows that whoever passed it posses necessary lawyering skills.
quote
smartguy
Hi smartguy,

Thanks a lot for your prompt and detailed reply. But do let me know what gives you the impression that English is not my strong side?

Thanks.


No offence, buddy. All i say is that no matter how strong your English is, litigation requires a big stake of oral language skills, understanding of different accents, slang, nuances.If you think you have 100% language understanding, i appologize and... i rest my case :-)
<blockquote>Hi smartguy,

Thanks a lot for your prompt and detailed reply. But do let me know what gives you the impression that English is not my strong side?

Thanks.</blockquote>

No offence, buddy. All i say is that no matter how strong your English is, litigation requires a big stake of oral language skills, understanding of different accents, slang, nuances.If you think you have 100% language understanding, i appologize and... i rest my case :-)

quote
GML
Smasrtguy, would you mind telling us what are you doing in the US? What is your position now (student or lawyer) and why did you move to the US? Thanks
Smasrtguy, would you mind telling us what are you doing in the US? What is your position now (student or lawyer) and why did you move to the US? Thanks
quote
Anurag
Hi smartguy,

Please don't embarrass me by apologizing. I really didn't mean it to sound the way it eventually turned out to. I was just curious whether it was something I wrote that lead you to the conclusion about english skills. Ofcourse, now I understand what you meant. I am the one who should be apologizing and I truly am sorry. Thanks a ton for all your advice. Cheers!
Hi smartguy,

Please don't embarrass me by apologizing. I really didn't mean it to sound the way it eventually turned out to. I was just curious whether it was something I wrote that lead you to the conclusion about english skills. Ofcourse, now I understand what you meant. I am the one who should be apologizing and I truly am sorry. Thanks a ton for all your advice. Cheers!
quote
Shumelka
Privet to all Russian lawyers:-) I'm also from Russia.

If you have an advocate status in Russia and can provide the Cal Bar with the proof of the status and they will aloow you to sit for the bar without any problem. I suppose it's because the first Russian attorney who took and passed the Cal Bar was a Moscow advocate.

If you don't have the status, the Bar will consider your background and decide on it. A friend of mine who was a general practitioner in Moscow was allowed to take the Bar for years ago. Last year, another one, also an atoorney from Moscow, who was an in-house councel there, had to go back to Russia, obtained the advocate status and was allowed to sit for the Cal Bar upon her return.
Privet to all Russian lawyers:-) I'm also from Russia.

If you have an advocate status in Russia and can provide the Cal Bar with the proof of the status and they will aloow you to sit for the bar without any problem. I suppose it's because the first Russian attorney who took and passed the Cal Bar was a Moscow advocate.

If you don't have the status, the Bar will consider your background and decide on it. A friend of mine who was a general practitioner in Moscow was allowed to take the Bar for years ago. Last year, another one, also an atoorney from Moscow, who was an in-house councel there, had to go back to Russia, obtained the advocate status and was allowed to sit for the Cal Bar upon her return.

quote
smartguy
Smasrtguy, would you mind telling us what are you doing in the US? What is your position now (student or lawyer) and why did you move to the US? Thanks

Here is goes. I graduated from Yaroslavl State University (Yaroslavl, Russia), Law Faculty in 1996. Upon my graduation i intended to practice law in my home city but because of the conflict with the President of local Bar association i realized i will never be practicing attorney. Thank you, Mr. Zenin. I immigrated to Israel the same year and after 3 long years i passed Israeli Bar exam from the first try. I practiced law for 5 years with my partner and i was quite happy with the way things are until i realized i am turning at the same level of spiral. I wanted to grow further up, my partner was happy with the same level of practice and clientele we were able to reach.
One year ago I moved to California and i did not regret for a minute. I like America, i like the way people do business here and i truly believe we (Russians) have to learn a lot from them. Sometimes our national and ethnic pride overcome our minds. I believe one day Russia will be a great country to live in. Hopefully it will happen soon enough for me to enjoy while i am alive :-)
<blockquote>Smasrtguy, would you mind telling us what are you doing in the US? What is your position now (student or lawyer) and why did you move to the US? Thanks</blockquote>
Here is goes. I graduated from Yaroslavl State University (Yaroslavl, Russia), Law Faculty in 1996. Upon my graduation i intended to practice law in my home city but because of the conflict with the President of local Bar association i realized i will never be practicing attorney. Thank you, Mr. Zenin. I immigrated to Israel the same year and after 3 long years i passed Israeli Bar exam from the first try. I practiced law for 5 years with my partner and i was quite happy with the way things are until i realized i am turning at the same level of spiral. I wanted to grow further up, my partner was happy with the same level of practice and clientele we were able to reach.
One year ago I moved to California and i did not regret for a minute. I like America, i like the way people do business here and i truly believe we (Russians) have to learn a lot from them. Sometimes our national and ethnic pride overcome our minds. I believe one day Russia will be a great country to live in. Hopefully it will happen soon enough for me to enjoy while i am alive :-)
quote
smartguy
Smasrtguy, would you mind telling us what are you doing in the US? What is your position now (student or lawyer) and why did you move to the US? Thanks

Maria,
I am sorry for the lyrical introduction to my lify. As for your question: I am currently employed as legal assistant and i am studying for upcoming CA Bar exam in late July. Last August I passed Multistate Professional Responsibility Exam which is part of admission requirements in most States. It was quite easy.
<blockquote>Smasrtguy, would you mind telling us what are you doing in the US? What is your position now (student or lawyer) and why did you move to the US? Thanks</blockquote>
Maria,
I am sorry for the lyrical introduction to my lify. As for your question: I am currently employed as legal assistant and i am studying for upcoming CA Bar exam in late July. Last August I passed Multistate Professional Responsibility Exam which is part of admission requirements in most States. It was quite easy.
quote
GML
Smartguy, thanks for your post. I was just wondering what had led you to the US while you're saying foreign attorneys can't be competitive without a JD.

P.S. Off-topic:My full support to your statements about the fact that the Russians have to learn a lot but this is still (or wil be) a great country.
Smartguy, thanks for your post. I was just wondering what had led you to the US while you're saying foreign attorneys can't be competitive without a JD.

P.S. Off-topic:My full support to your statements about the fact that the Russians have to learn a lot but this is still (or wil be) a great country.
quote

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