Re: City Launches January LLM Entry


dralanrile...

City Law School Launches January Entry 'Hammock LLM'

City Law School has now launched a January entry LLM. This is a 'Hammock LLM': That is students first take two courses in the January to April term. Then in the summer term they take the 20,000 word dissertation, and then in the following autumn term they take two more courses, graduating the following January.

Our final closing date for applications for the January entry date is Monday 18th January 2010. Term begins on Monday 25th January. We advise all intending students to apply as early as possible for the January LLM entry.

Professor Alan Riley
LLM Programme Director
City Law School
City University
4 Grays Inn Place
London
WC1R 5DX
Electronic Mail: alan.riley.1@city.ac.uk

City Law School Launches January Entry 'Hammock LLM'

City Law School has now launched a January entry LLM. This is a 'Hammock LLM': That is students first take two courses in the January to April term. Then in the summer term they take the 20,000 word dissertation, and then in the following autumn term they take two more courses, graduating the following January.

Our final closing date for applications for the January entry date is Monday 18th January 2010. Term begins on Monday 25th January. We advise all intending students to apply as early as possible for the January LLM entry.

Professor Alan Riley
LLM Programme Director
City Law School
City University
4 Grays Inn Place
London
WC1R 5DX
Electronic Mail: alan.riley.1@city.ac.uk
quote
whatelse

Dear Professor Alan,

did you mention that most of the students will spend lots of money and will not find any work ?

Students from the last LLM courses were unable to find any work while during the course many positions were promised ?
Why don't you invite students from previous years to participate to your debates (on line and in classes) ?

Guys, you might hear what you wouldn't like to hear, especially if you are paying your 6000-7000 LLM which has the same value of a 2000 LLM master.

A very disappointed City University student,

W.E.

Dear Professor Alan,

did you mention that most of the students will spend lots of money and will not find any work ?

Students from the last LLM courses were unable to find any work while during the course many positions were promised ?
Why don't you invite students from previous years to participate to your debates (on line and in classes) ?

Guys, you might hear what you wouldn't like to hear, especially if you are paying your 6000-7000 LLM which has the same value of a 2000 LLM master.

A very disappointed City University student,

W.E.
quote
legalUK

W.E. - I am a student from previous year and I have got a perfect job and I know many others who were successful as well. You should be realistic and reasonable in your expectations. Having LLM does not mean that a job will be delivered to you on a tray. I think I do not have to explain the basics here?!

W.E. - I am a student from previous year and I have got a perfect job and I know many others who were successful as well. You should be realistic and reasonable in your expectations. Having LLM does not mean that a job will be delivered to you on a tray. I think I do not have to explain the basics here?!
quote
whatelse

How bizzare... it looks like we have different "numbers"...

Is it a basic rule to promise jobs before and during the LLM ?

The problem arises when they promise positions to all the student and at the end it's only 10% getting an unpaid/poorly paid internship (which is not a job).

The students who attended the course with me are working, yes, they are working in restaurants !
Would you like names ?

I am myself currently unemployed, but I am not saying that LLM means 100% work, I am saying that "numbers" at City University are very different than those at Queen/LSE/King's college, etc and very different to what they told us during the LLM. Can you deny this ?

W.E.

How bizzare... it looks like we have different "numbers"...

Is it a basic rule to promise jobs before and during the LLM ?

The problem arises when they promise positions to all the student and at the end it's only 10% getting an unpaid/poorly paid internship (which is not a job).

The students who attended the course with me are working, yes, they are working in restaurants !
Would you like names ?

I am myself currently unemployed, but I am not saying that LLM means 100% work, I am saying that "numbers" at City University are very different than those at Queen/LSE/King's college, etc and very different to what they told us during the LLM. Can you deny this ?

W.E.

quote
legalUK

1. Other Universities do not offer internships at all!!!! At the City, at least you have a chance to get one.
2. Internships never meant to earn you money BUT to have exposure and insight into private practice by spending few months in a law firm.
3. I do not think they promised positions/jobs to anyone and in particular to all students. What is on offer is on their website with black on white!!!

1. Other Universities do not offer internships at all!!!! At the City, at least you have a chance to get one.
2. Internships never meant to earn you money BUT to have exposure and insight into private practice by spending few months in a law firm.
3. I do not think they promised positions/jobs to anyone and in particular to all students. What is on offer is on their website with black on white!!!
quote

I have graduated from LLM at City University. W.E. Did you really expect that by taking LLM at City, somebody from academic staff will find a job for you? and maybe pass interviews for you as well?

These internships mentioned on the City Law School website really exist, and believe me I dont know any other LLM programs with such opportunity to get work experience in international law firms only if you got very good scores and pass interviews. Of course, these places are for the best students.

Let me remind you basic rules about choosing LLM programmes. LLM is not place where you should expect somebody will find job for you. This is place to master your knowledge in particular areas of law. So what really counts is if the particular law school suggests these subjects you are really interested in and by whom these modules will be tought. I am convinced City Law School hires the best experts in their field who have finished studies at the best universities and have work experience in best law firms.

Of course, you can always try to get a place in such magic places like Cambridge, Oxford or Harvard, but you should ask yourself question why you havent tried there and not blame others for your lack of success in job hunting. But even at these institutions, you will not get a job just because you study there.

Bear in mind as well, that currently legal profession is experiencing big crisis and the law firms reduce their staff by 10-15%.

So, to conclude, City Law School with its real opportunity to win nternship in prestigious law firms, in current situation, looks even more attractive for prospective law students.

I have graduated from LLM at City University. W.E. Did you really expect that by taking LLM at City, somebody from academic staff will find a job for you? and maybe pass interviews for you as well?

These internships mentioned on the City Law School website really exist, and believe me I dont know any other LLM programs with such opportunity to get work experience in international law firms only if you got very good scores and pass interviews. Of course, these places are for the best students.

Let me remind you basic rules about choosing LLM programmes. LLM is not place where you should expect somebody will find job for you. This is place to master your knowledge in particular areas of law. So what really counts is if the particular law school suggests these subjects you are really interested in and by whom these modules will be tought. I am convinced City Law School hires the best experts in their field who have finished studies at the best universities and have work experience in best law firms.

Of course, you can always try to get a place in such magic places like Cambridge, Oxford or Harvard, but you should ask yourself question why you havent tried there and not blame others for your lack of success in job hunting. But even at these institutions, you will not get a job just because you study there.

Bear in mind as well, that currently legal profession is experiencing big crisis and the law firms reduce their staff by 10-15%.

So, to conclude, City Law School with its real opportunity to win nternship in prestigious law firms, in current situation, looks even more attractive for prospective law students.

quote

W.E.!!!

I cant believe that you're such a naive person. For these internships you mentioned from LSE website http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/LSEInternships/students/public_sector.htm everybody can apply. So basically, you dont need to be LSE student or graduate to get these positions. Analogicaly, feel free to apply as well. I have friends studying at LSE and I tell you- nobody finds a job or internships for them. They need to find on their own, using their intelect.

In comparison, City Law School offers internships only for City students, so you experience much less competition. You just need to get one of the best scores.

W.E.!!!

I cant believe that you're such a naive person. For these internships you mentioned from LSE website http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/LSEInternships/students/public_sector.htm everybody can apply. So basically, you dont need to be LSE student or graduate to get these positions. Analogicaly, feel free to apply as well. I have friends studying at LSE and I tell you- nobody finds a job or internships for them. They need to find on their own, using their intelect.

In comparison, City Law School offers internships only for City students, so you experience much less competition. You just need to get one of the best scores.
quote

You have to distinguish in your mind the difference between the LLM and the job.
The first gives us the equipment and makes us more competitive and the second is true life. I had my LLM at the city university two years ago. The specialization I got helped me a lot in finding a job but I did not stopped there. You have to try to enrich your knowledge. Nowadays everyone has a master. It is up to you not to the city university.
Moreover, it was very difficult to get the internship and only the best LLM students managed to get them and worked at the biggest law firms. Did you get any internship?
City University really offers a lot but you should also try. No one will nock your door just because you have an LLM either it is from the City or the LSE or the Cambridge.

You have to distinguish in your mind the difference between the LLM and the job.
The first gives us the equipment and makes us more competitive and the second is true life. I had my LLM at the city university two years ago. The specialization I got helped me a lot in finding a job but I did not stopped there. You have to try to enrich your knowledge. Nowadays everyone has a master. It is up to you not to the city university.
Moreover, it was very difficult to get the internship and only the best LLM students managed to get them and worked at the biggest law firms. Did you get any internship?
City University really offers a lot but you should also try. No one will nock your door just because you have an LLM either it is from the City or the LSE or the Cambridge.

quote
tnuchpiam

The employability of gratuates from a study programme is certainly crucial to its eventual viability. Moreover, I know that job hunting is a truly traumatic experience: I had this kind of frustration before.

However, I feel it is unfair to blame your university for the failure to land on a job, especially right after graduation. Moreover, it is even more unfair to accuse City University, in particular, of spreading propaganda and blocking "freedom of expression". We are now freely expressing ourselves -- I even see W.E. doing so right now in another thread on this web board.

The employability of gratuates from a study programme is certainly crucial to its eventual viability. Moreover, I know that job hunting is a truly traumatic experience: I had this kind of frustration before.

However, I feel it is unfair to blame your university for the failure to land on a job, especially right after graduation. Moreover, it is even more unfair to accuse City University, in particular, of spreading propaganda and blocking "freedom of expression". We are now freely expressing ourselves -- I even see W.E. doing so right now in another thread on this web board.
quote
whatelse

what I am talking about is concerning the promises during the course and the real events. I can't promise things that I can't mantain..

City University is not the worse uni in UK, but it's far from LSE, Queen, King, etc.. It's like a second league university and I am sorry for this as now I have a LLM with the name of a uni which is ranked on a 54th position on 91 !

Honestly 54 up on 91 is quite poor:

http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/tol_gug/gooduniversityguide.php?subject=LAW

WE

what I am talking about is concerning the promises during the course and the real events. I can't promise things that I can't mantain..

City University is not the worse uni in UK, but it's far from LSE, Queen, King, etc.. It's like a second league university and I am sorry for this as now I have a LLM with the name of a uni which is ranked on a 54th position on 91 !

Honestly 54 up on 91 is quite poor:

http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/tol_gug/gooduniversityguide.php?subject=LAW

WE
quote
Tatiana_S

W.E., as far as I understand the real life, nobody is trying to prevent you from expressing your opinion. I can only see a common discussion. And as a prospective student holding an offer from City University, I would like to listen to everyone who is able to tell me about this Uni without hysterics.
(whispering) I should tell you the truth: every user on LLM-GUIDE is a member of City University staff, really.

W.E., as far as I understand the real life, nobody is trying to prevent you from expressing your opinion. I can only see a common discussion. And as a prospective student holding an offer from City University, I would like to listen to everyone who is able to tell me about this Uni without hysterics.
(whispering) I should tell you the truth: every user on LLM-GUIDE is a member of City University staff, really.
quote
whatelse

Dear Tatiana,

I would be happy to tell you my experience as a (ex) full time student if you would like me to do it. Just let me know if you prefer a private message in LLM guide or on your email. I can also put you in contact with 2, 3 more students who completed the LLM. I guess it would be very useful for your choice. I am 100% available to help you if somehow I can.

WE

Dear Tatiana,

I would be happy to tell you my experience as a (ex) full time student if you would like me to do it. Just let me know if you prefer a private message in LLM guide or on your email. I can also put you in contact with 2, 3 more students who completed the LLM. I guess it would be very useful for your choice. I am 100% available to help you if somehow I can.

WE
quote
beicon

Im not a City student nor a City offer holder nor a member of their staff in fact I hadnt ever heard of City University before in my life until I joined the LLM Guide almost a year ago.

But if I may barge in, Id like to give my opinion on this much heated discussion.

First, nobody can guarantee a job after the LLM. I find it hard to believe that anyone university would do such a thing. However, for the sake of argument let us assume that City did, I for sure wouldnt be so naïve to actually buy this idea. I gather from everything Ive read here that if City indeed promised positions to everyone on their LLM programme they were shamelessly lying and that if WE bought this idea, he/she was extremely naïve.

Second, Ive got to say I agree with WE when he/she says City is a second league university. Lets be honest, whod actually prefer City over any of the colleges at University of London? Or Durham? Or Manchester? Or Edinburgh? Just someone so desperately to study in London that they just couldnt care less for high education standards Reputationwise, City is far below LSE, UCL, KCL, Queen Mary and SOAS I reckon City is much more of a diploma factory

Come on, did you read the first post on this thread? It says City has launched a January Entry Programme. Ok, no problem there. But it goes and says applications would be received until 18th January and classes would commence on 25th January six long days to assess applications!? Its obvious that everyone who applies get an offer How good can a programme like that be?

I live in Brazil and Im familiarised with how universities like City run. Weve got a lot of those here they feed off students craving a degree to enhance their employability chances Universities like this are often very expensive and tend to do numerous advertisements on how good they are, how they offer great employability rates and everything. A London-based university goes even further to say that theyre based in one of the worlds liveliest cities, that its great to study there and that theyve got an international environment with students coming from more than 100 countries The competition for a place is always low and youll get an offer of a place just by passing near the universitys door

I dont know, but maybe because we are so used to bad universities here in Brazil, all Brazilians that I know of have LLMs from first-tier universities. Its just easier to see it coming

Nonetheless, I understand that its easy to fall for this trick and to be seduced by the pretty website and the promises of a better future after you get your degree. But you shant let it get to you I often see many people here on the LLM Guide worried they wont be admitted to first-tier universities (such as Oxbridge, LSE, UCL, KCL and others scattered about the UK) because their grades dont match up to a first or upper second class. In face of the fear of not being admitted at all these students end up applying to second (even third) tier universities like City, East London, Westminster, Bangor and many many others all round the UK.

Im honest enough to say I almost fell for it At the beginning of my application journey I was so afraid I would wind up with no where to go that I almost applied to City and the like in the end I applied to 11 universities and I must admit at least two or three were desperate choices However, like Ive been saying a lot for a while now, it all turned out just fine and Ive been admitted to great schools and now I can choose where I want to go.

To sum it up: the LLM has become a much profitable business to all universities (even first-tiers) because of the number of overseas students applying for it every year. If youre going to spend a rather sizeable amount of money, go to a place where its worth going dont fall for advertisements and groundless promises of a better future. If you end up falling for it, you may find yourself in future trying to blame university for being so naïve.

Im off now I reckon Ive already said too much.

I’m not a City student nor a City offer holder nor a member of their staff… in fact I hadn’t ever heard of City University before in my life until I joined the LLM Guide almost a year ago.

But if I may barge in, I’d like to give my opinion on this much heated discussion.

First, nobody can guarantee a job after the LLM. I find it hard to believe that anyone university would do such a thing. However, for the sake of argument let us assume that City did, I for sure wouldn’t be so naïve to actually buy this idea. I gather from everything I’ve read here that if City indeed promised positions to everyone on their LLM programme they were shamelessly lying and that if WE bought this idea, he/she was extremely naïve.

Second, I’ve got to say I agree with WE when he/she says City is a second league university. Let’s be honest, who’d actually prefer City over any of the colleges at University of London? Or Durham? Or Manchester? Or Edinburgh? Just someone so desperately to study in London that they just couldn’t care less for high education standards… Reputationwise, City is far below LSE, UCL, KCL, Queen Mary and SOAS… I reckon City is much more of a “diploma factory”…

Come on, did you read the first post on this thread? It says City has launched a January Entry Programme. Ok, no problem there. But it goes and says applications would be received until 18th January and classes would commence on 25th January… six long days to assess applications!? It’s obvious that everyone who applies get an offer… How good can a programme like that be?

I live in Brazil and I’m familiarised with how universities like City run. We’ve got a lot of those here… they feed off students craving a degree to enhance their employability chances… Universities like this are often very expensive and tend to do numerous advertisements on how good they are, how they offer great employability rates and everything. A London-based university goes even further to say that they’re based in one of the world’s liveliest cities, that it’s great to study there and that they’ve got an international environment with students coming from more than 100 countries… The competition for a place is always low and you’ll get an offer of a place just by passing near the university’s door…

I don’t know, but maybe because we are so used to bad universities here in Brazil, all Brazilians that I know of have LLMs from first-tier universities. It’s just easier to see it coming…

Nonetheless, I understand that it’s easy to fall for this trick and to be seduced by the pretty website and the promises of a better future after you get your degree. But you shan’t let it get to you… I often see many people here on the LLM Guide worried they won’t be admitted to first-tier universities (such as Oxbridge, LSE, UCL, KCL and others scattered about the UK) because their grades don’t match up to a first or upper second class. In face of the fear of not being admitted at all these students end up applying to second (even third) tier universities like City, East London, Westminster, Bangor and many many others all round the UK.

I’m honest enough to say I almost fell for it… At the beginning of my application journey I was so afraid I would wind up with no where to go that I almost applied to City and the like… in the end I applied to 11 universities and I must admit at least two or three were desperate choices… However, like I’ve been saying a lot for a while now, it all turned out just fine and I’ve been admitted to great schools and now I can choose where I want to go.

To sum it up: the LLM has become a much profitable business to all universities (even first-tiers’) because of the number of overseas students applying for it every year. If you’re going to spend a rather sizeable amount of money, go to a place where it’s worth going… don’t fall for advertisements and groundless promises of a better future. If you end up falling for it, you may find yourself in future trying to blame university for being so naïve.

I’m off now… I reckon I’ve already said too much.
quote
whatelse

Dear Beicon,

thanks for your reply. You understood very well the point and the situation.. I might have been naive, but I would like to warn other students on doing the same mistake.. Isn't the purpose of this website provinding information to help us ?

Also, as you said, I agree if you should spend a considerable amount of money do it with an appropriate university, don't waste your money with a second choice university (or degree factory as you called it).

Good luck !

Dear Beicon,

thanks for your reply. You understood very well the point and the situation.. I might have been naive, but I would like to warn other students on doing the same mistake.. Isn't the purpose of this website provinding information to help us ?

Also, as you said, I agree if you should spend a considerable amount of money do it with an appropriate university, don't waste your money with a second choice university (or degree factory as you called it).

Good luck !
quote
tnuchpiam

Hi beicon!

I really admire the breadth of your knowledge. The information you have supplied will be useful, especially for prospective students who are selecting a law school in the UK. Only one question remains: how can we make a distinction between "good" universities and those of the "degree mill" type?

Almost all universities now need to be commercially competitive. Only a few top-rank universities, perhaps, can stay aloof from all those now competing for their survival. While I am typing this post, I see that even University of Oxford advertises its "many postgraduate programmes" on this website, together with the likes of UC Berkeley...

Now let's come back to City University Law School. I am certainly not one of its staff members. I wish I were, because in that capacity I would be able to stay with my daughter who is studying at a British university -- again certainly not City!

This school of law at least has an air of respectability about it, neither in the form of an attractive website nor "promises" that succeeded in enticing people like WE into its academic fold. To me it appears "respectable" because it has also been administering the Inns of Court School of Law. I can hardly make sense of their longstanding relationship, but it seems to me that "City Law School" and the "Inns of Court School of Law" are now one and the same.

I only wonder why this law school has been lowly ranked, and why, with such a low standing, it has been entrusted with the tasking of training future Barristers-at-Law of England and Wales? What is more untrustworthy -- the rankings or the City Law School? Moreover, what should be more appropriately regarded as a "degree mill" -- a highly prestigious law school that annually admits 350-400 LLM students and a lowly ranked one with an annual intake of about 50-80 students?

Hi beicon!

I really admire the breadth of your knowledge. The information you have supplied will be useful, especially for prospective students who are selecting a law school in the UK. Only one question remains: how can we make a distinction between "good" universities and those of the "degree mill" type?

Almost all universities now need to be commercially competitive. Only a few top-rank universities, perhaps, can stay aloof from all those now competing for their survival. While I am typing this post, I see that even University of Oxford advertises its "many postgraduate programmes" on this website, together with the likes of UC Berkeley...

Now let's come back to City University Law School. I am certainly not one of its staff members. I wish I were, because in that capacity I would be able to stay with my daughter who is studying at a British university -- again certainly not City!

This school of law at least has an air of respectability about it, neither in the form of an attractive website nor "promises" that succeeded in enticing people like WE into its academic fold. To me it appears "respectable" because it has also been administering the Inns of Court School of Law. I can hardly make sense of their longstanding relationship, but it seems to me that "City Law School" and the "Inns of Court School of Law" are now one and the same.

I only wonder why this law school has been lowly ranked, and why, with such a low standing, it has been entrusted with the tasking of training future Barristers-at-Law of England and Wales? What is more untrustworthy -- the rankings or the City Law School? Moreover, what should be more appropriately regarded as a "degree mill" -- a highly prestigious law school that annually admits 350-400 LLM students and a lowly ranked one with an annual intake of about 50-80 students?
quote
ECtrainee

As a beginning remark: I hardly think anyone can change whatelses mind. It is not my intention to do so either. I am sorry that you are disappointed. Nevertheless a crusade against the institution is petty of you. You have made your point. If anything, at least dont argue against the propaganda of City, since you are doing exactly the same against City. And dont fool yourself, this site is for advertising. You have used your possibility to express your opinion about City for which some undecided prospective LLM students will be grateful.

Hammock LLM: I agree with tnuchpiam, I could only add that you attend the same courses in the Hammock version, but the fact that you are doing work in a small group is I think definitely a plus.

I think it is rather unwise to think that the universities offering LLMs are welfare institutions. Any type of course which asks for high tuition fees is about financing the institution. The quality is hard to measure especially - as we can see - since several students percieve the course and the outcome gravely differently. Just one additional remark: on the list invoked earlier, City has the same graduate prospects as Kings which is No. 5 on the list.

It is true that there are several internships for young professionals and students. It is also true that City offers specific internship only offered to their students. A caveat is that only the best get internships. Nobody mislead us about the prospects of our course, especially since we had several sessions organized by City about our prospects with people from law firms and HR who told us pretty clearly. Also it doesnt take a genius to see if there are 4 internships, not everybody out of the 45 students on the course will have the chance to show a law firm that they are fit for hiring.

London is a factor and contacts are also a factor. City can offer both for somebody who is looking for a high profile international commercial law position. City cannot secure a position for you, but they can get you in touch with some people and from there on you can prove yourself.

Another thing is that you should really focus more on the specialisation. Strathclyde may have a better position in the rankings, but I hardly beleive they have a competition curriculum as good as City. Check the staff for people who have written articles and textbooks in the field you are interested which is a good indicator.

I am not a marketing expert but I dont await to become like Brad Pitt if I buy the shampoo that he is advertising and I think nobody does. So you shouldnt await to get a job after and/or on the basis of your LLM at City just because somebody who graduated there got one.

As a beginning remark: I hardly think anyone can change whatelse’s mind. It is not my intention to do so either. I am sorry that you are disappointed. Nevertheless a crusade against the institution is petty of you. You have made your point. If anything, at least don’t argue against the propaganda of City, since you are doing exactly the same against City. And don’t fool yourself, this site is for advertising. You have used your possibility to express your opinion about City for which some undecided prospective LLM students will be grateful.

Hammock LLM: I agree with tnuchpiam, I could only add that you attend the same courses in the Hammock version, but the fact that you are doing work in a small group is I think definitely a plus.

I think it is rather unwise to think that the universities offering LLMs are welfare institutions. Any type of course which asks for high tuition fees is about financing the institution. The quality is hard to measure especially - as we can see - since several students percieve the course and the outcome gravely differently. Just one additional remark: on the list invoked earlier, City has the same graduate prospects as King’s which is No. 5 on the list.

It is true that there are several internships for young professionals and students. It is also true that City offers specific internship only offered to their students. A caveat is that only the best get internships. Nobody mislead us about the prospects of our course, especially since we had several sessions organized by City about our prospects with people from law firms and HR who told us pretty clearly. Also it doesn’t take a genius to see if there are 4 internships, not everybody out of the 45 students on the course will have the chance to show a law firm that they are fit for hiring.

London is a factor and contacts are also a factor. City can offer both for somebody who is looking for a high profile international commercial law position. City cannot secure a position for you, but they can get you in touch with some people and from there on you can prove yourself.

Another thing is that you should really focus more on the specialisation. Strathclyde may have a better position in the rankings, but I hardly beleive they have a competition curriculum as good as City. Check the staff for people who have written articles and textbooks in the field you are interested which is a good indicator.

I am not a marketing expert but I don’t await to become like Brad Pitt if I buy the shampoo that he is advertising and I think nobody does. So you shouldn’t await to get a job after and/or on the basis of your LLM at City just because somebody who graduated there got one.
quote
llmpedro

Interestingly for anyone who wants to know more about law and infringements I have found this on the LLM-Guide policy:
"When posting a message in the Board, users may not publish any messages containing any form of advertisment or promotion", so as a matter of fact universities shouldn't make any advertising unless differently agreed with the website organisers.
Regarding City, I don't know much about it, but I guess it's not a top university choice, but I might be wrong. I only judge on things read in this guide and heard from friends.
However, I agree with the definition of "degree mill" for those kind of university.

Interestingly for anyone who wants to know more about law and infringements I have found this on the LLM-Guide policy:
"When posting a message in the Board, users may not publish any messages containing any form of advertisment or promotion", so as a matter of fact universities shouldn't make any advertising unless differently agreed with the website organisers.
Regarding City, I don't know much about it, but I guess it's not a top university choice, but I might be wrong. I only judge on things read in this guide and heard from friends.
However, I agree with the definition of "degree mill" for those kind of university.
quote
beicon

Hi beicon!

I really admire the breadth of your knowledge. The information you have supplied will be useful, especially for prospective students who are selecting a law school in the UK. Only one question remains: how can we make a distinction between "good" universities and those of the "degree mill" type?

Almost all universities now need to be commercially competitive. Only a few top-rank universities, perhaps, can stay aloof from all those now competing for their survival. While I am typing this post, I see that even University of Oxford advertises its "many postgraduate programmes" on this website, together with the likes of UC Berkeley...

Now let's come back to City University Law School. I am certainly not one of its staff members. I wish I were, because in that capacity I would be able to stay with my daughter who is studying at a British university -- again certainly not City!

This school of law at least has an air of respectability about it, neither in the form of an attractive website nor "promises" that succeeded in enticing people like WE into its academic fold. To me it appears "respectable" because it has also been administering the Inns of Court School of Law. I can hardly make sense of their longstanding relationship, but it seems to me that "City Law School" and the "Inns of Court School of Law" are now one and the same.

I only wonder why this law school has been lowly ranked, and why, with such a low standing, it has been entrusted with the tasking of training future Barristers-at-Law of England and Wales? What is more untrustworthy -- the rankings or the City Law School? Moreover, what should be more appropriately regarded as a "degree mill" -- a highly prestigious law school that annually admits 350-400 LLM students and a lowly ranked one with an annual intake of about 50-80 students?


Hi tnuchpiam.

I understand and agree with you when you say that nowadays universities have to be commercially active and even Oxford (that requires no introductions) has been using this website for advertisement.

However, like I said before, I live in a country thats swamped with degree mill universities and I know how they work. They advertise a lot and often premised on false or at least manipulated data. Theres one very famous degree mill university in São Paulo that once claimed to have the highest number of students approved in the Bar exam of the State of São Paulo you figure thats a pretty good school, right? Wrong!!!

They manipulated the information and simply omitted that they have thousands (thats right thousands!!!!) of persons graduating from their various law schools scattered about the State every year and that in the end, although the biggest in number of approved students, the passing rate was ridiculously low Thats how degree mills work. A less informed student could easily be tricked into thinking that a school like that is just great!

One thing I didnt say in my last post and that I believe that might apply to degree mill universities in the UK also. This kind of university in Brazil often hires great teachers and have great facilities, but because theyre only after the money, their entry standards are extremely low like I said, if you happen to be passing by their building, you might get home with an offer of a place My point is, some times the reason for their low credibility resides in their entry standards

Anyways, the key to find out whether a certain university is or isnt a degree factory is to dig up as much information as you can about that particular university Of course, there are certain universities that have a long-established reputation (like Oxbridge, LSE, UCL, KCL and others) that require no introductions and that everybody knows their good. But there are less popular universities that are also good and deserve the attention

Specifically for the UK, theres one thing I consider important and that answers at least partially your query on the number of students on LLM programmes: the student/staff ratio provided by most rakings if you take a look at the student staff ratio for City (as a university, not as a law school Ive tried to look for the data concerning the law school, but Im just not in the mood of surfing the web after this information right now) is currently at 17.8, whilst UCL is at 8.9, Cambridge at 11.6, Oxford at 10.8, KCL at 11.4, LSE at 13.3, QM at 13 so all of them have better student/staff ratios than City So theses universities might indeed admit more students to their LLM programmes, but they also have more staff member to offset it with

Furthermore, there are the 2008 RAE results City is ranked 43rd meanwhile LSE is 1st, UCL 2nd, Oxford 3rd, Cambridge 7th and so on

So only with a brief analysis youll notice that there is some information that supports my opinion

Now, about the fact that City and the Inns of Court School of Law are the same youre right, but the Inns of Court School of Law lost the monopoly to train barristers in 1999. I dont know the exact reason for that so please anyone enlighten if you do, but couldnt it be because thered been a quality drop?

Anyhow, I think Im off once again Ive said too much

<blockquote>Hi beicon!

I really admire the breadth of your knowledge. The information you have supplied will be useful, especially for prospective students who are selecting a law school in the UK. Only one question remains: how can we make a distinction between "good" universities and those of the "degree mill" type?

Almost all universities now need to be commercially competitive. Only a few top-rank universities, perhaps, can stay aloof from all those now competing for their survival. While I am typing this post, I see that even University of Oxford advertises its "many postgraduate programmes" on this website, together with the likes of UC Berkeley...

Now let's come back to City University Law School. I am certainly not one of its staff members. I wish I were, because in that capacity I would be able to stay with my daughter who is studying at a British university -- again certainly not City!

This school of law at least has an air of respectability about it, neither in the form of an attractive website nor "promises" that succeeded in enticing people like WE into its academic fold. To me it appears "respectable" because it has also been administering the Inns of Court School of Law. I can hardly make sense of their longstanding relationship, but it seems to me that "City Law School" and the "Inns of Court School of Law" are now one and the same.

I only wonder why this law school has been lowly ranked, and why, with such a low standing, it has been entrusted with the tasking of training future Barristers-at-Law of England and Wales? What is more untrustworthy -- the rankings or the City Law School? Moreover, what should be more appropriately regarded as a "degree mill" -- a highly prestigious law school that annually admits 350-400 LLM students and a lowly ranked one with an annual intake of about 50-80 students?</blockquote>

Hi tnuchpiam.

I understand and agree with you when you say that nowadays universities have to be commercially active and even Oxford (that requires no introductions) has been using this website for advertisement.

However, like I said before, I live in a country that’s swamped with degree mill universities and I know how they work. They advertise a lot and often premised on false or at least manipulated data. There’s one very famous degree mill university in São Paulo that once claimed to have the highest number of students approved in the Bar exam of the State of São Paulo… you figure that’s a pretty good school, right? Wrong!!!

They manipulated the information and simply omitted that they have thousands (that’s right… thousands!!!!) of persons graduating from their various law schools scattered about the State every year and that in the end, although the biggest in number of approved students, the passing rate was ridiculously low… That’s how degree mills work. A less informed student could easily be tricked into thinking that a school like that is just great!

One thing I didn’t say in my last post and that I believe that might apply to degree mill universities in the UK also. This kind of university in Brazil often hires great teachers and have great facilities, but because they’re only after the money, their entry standards are extremely low… like I said, if you happen to be passing by their building, you might get home with an offer of a place… My point is, some times the reason for their low credibility resides in their entry standards…

Anyways, the key to find out whether a certain university is or isn’t a degree factory is to dig up as much information as you can about that particular university… Of course, there are certain universities that have a long-established reputation (like Oxbridge, LSE, UCL, KCL and others) that require no introductions and that everybody knows their good. But there are less popular universities that are also good and deserve the attention…

Specifically for the UK, there’s one thing I consider important and that answers at least partially your query on the number of students on LLM programmes: the student/staff ratio provided by most rakings… if you take a look at the student staff ratio for City (as a university, not as a law school – I’ve tried to look for the data concerning the law school, but I’m just not in the mood of surfing the web after this information right now) is currently at 17.8, whilst UCL is at 8.9, Cambridge at 11.6, Oxford at 10.8, KCL at 11.4, LSE at 13.3, QM at 13… so all of them have better student/staff ratios than City… So theses universities might indeed admit more students to their LLM programmes, but they also have more staff member to offset it with…

Furthermore, there are the 2008 RAE results… City is ranked 43rd… meanwhile LSE is 1st, UCL 2nd, Oxford 3rd, Cambridge 7th and so on…

So only with a brief analysis you’ll notice that there is some information that supports my opinion…

Now, about the fact that City and the Inns of Court School of Law are the same… you’re right, but the Inns of Court School of Law lost the monopoly to train barristers in 1999. I don’t know the exact reason for that so please anyone enlighten if you do, but couldn’t it be because there’d been a quality drop?

Anyhow, I think I’m off… once again I’ve said too much…
quote
Kerfuffle

Whatelse, were you directly promised an internship from City, or did you just read this in the glossy brochure and make a leap of judgement? I say this because English law schools do not guarantee work (there might be an odd exception) and an LLM, whether from Cambridge or a Mickey Mouse law school, certainly doesn't guarantee a job and if they did, law schools would be able to squeeze far more money out of students.

I dont want to give City bad or good press (mostly because I know little about it except, as mentioned above, its merger with the ICSL), but as an academic law school its pretty much off the radar as far as good law schools go.

I noticed someone asked about determining good law schools from degree mill law schools Id say stick with any Russell Group or 1994 Group University (more specifically, law schools that are always found in the top 10/20 on rankings).

The Guardian has recently published some interesting data on postgraduate law courses:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/table/2010/feb/15/law-postgraduate-masters-table1
Unfortunately, the data doesnt seem to distinguish between student numbers for academic courses (LLM) and professional courses (LPC/BVC) for those law schools that provide both. Eg. City has a HUGE number of postgrad law students 945 (full-time) and 189 (part-time), but a large number will be professional course students and not on the LLM, and the low percentage of non-UK students partly supports this (35%).

Some other interesting points from the Guardian data (not relevant to City): KCL seems to favour and/or is popular with domestic students (only 40% are non-UK students), this contrasts with LSE and Durham who have a heavy intake of non-UK students (82% and 94% respectively).

From the 'big 4' London colleges, LSE and KCL fare best for student-staff ratio (13 and 13.5 respectively), then QM (16.3), and then UCL (20.1).

LSE takes in approx. 100 students fewer than KCL, UCL and QM, and very few part-time students compared to KCL, UCL and QM.

Whatelse, were you directly promised an internship from City, or did you just read this in the glossy brochure and make a leap of judgement? I say this because English law schools do not guarantee work (there might be an odd exception) and an LLM, whether from Cambridge or a Mickey Mouse law school, certainly doesn't guarantee a job – and if they did, law schools would be able to squeeze far more money out of students.

I don’t want to give City bad or good press (mostly because I know little about it except, as mentioned above, its merger with the ICSL), but as an academic law school it’s pretty much off the radar as far as ‘good’ law schools go.

I noticed someone asked about determining ‘good’ law schools from ‘degree mill’ law schools – I’d say stick with any Russell Group or 1994 Group University (more specifically, law schools that are always found in the top 10/20 on rankings).

The Guardian has recently published some interesting data on postgraduate law courses:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/table/2010/feb/15/law-postgraduate-masters-table1
Unfortunately, the data doesn’t seem to distinguish between student numbers for academic courses (LLM) and professional courses (LPC/BVC) for those law schools that provide both. Eg. City has a HUGE number of postgrad law students 945 (full-time) and 189 (part-time), but a large number will be professional course students and not on the LLM, and the low percentage of non-UK students partly supports this (35%).

Some other interesting points from the Guardian data (not relevant to City): KCL seems to favour and/or is popular with domestic students (only 40% are non-UK students), this contrasts with LSE and Durham who have a heavy intake of non-UK students (82% and 94% respectively).

From the 'big 4' London colleges, LSE and KCL fare best for student-staff ratio (13 and 13.5 respectively), then QM (16.3), and then UCL (20.1).

LSE takes in approx. 100 students fewer than KCL, UCL and QM, and very few part-time students compared to KCL, UCL and QM.
quote
ltalev

Hello!

In addition to the information provided by the previous participants I could say the following:

I am graduate of the Law School of the Sofia University "St. Kliment Ohridski" and afterwards I have undertaken the LLM in International Commercial Law of the City University London. I can definitely recommend this program because of the variety of the modules they offer and the oportunity to get different specializations: nin Competition law, in Financial Law, in Maritime Law, etc. Due to large number of modules the classes for each of them are relatively small (up to 20 persons) which facilitates the professor-student contact. There are also paid internships in big law firms for the best students. The accomodation facilities are very good, clean and modern and within walking distance from the University. Compared to the "normal" rents in London the accomodation fees are not that high either.

Hope that this has been useful. If you have further questions - do not hesitate to ask.

Best regards
Lyubomir Talev

Hello!

In addition to the information provided by the previous participants I could say the following:

I am graduate of the Law School of the Sofia University "St. Kliment Ohridski" and afterwards I have undertaken the LLM in International Commercial Law of the City University London. I can definitely recommend this program because of the variety of the modules they offer and the oportunity to get different specializations: nin Competition law, in Financial Law, in Maritime Law, etc. Due to large number of modules the classes for each of them are relatively small (up to 20 persons) which facilitates the professor-student contact. There are also paid internships in big law firms for the best students. The accomodation facilities are very good, clean and modern and within walking distance from the University. Compared to the "normal" rents in London the accomodation fees are not that high either.

Hope that this has been useful. If you have further questions - do not hesitate to ask.

Best regards
Lyubomir Talev
quote

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