Some Misconceptions: size, admission, prestige, and selectivity


I recently noticed many uninformed and delusive posts in this guide for the past 4 years that I want to reflect upon briefly. This is mostly for future applicants to avoid some mistakes we all fell for.

1) Do you pursue a brand or an education or both? mostly, brands are there because they reflect the quality of the education you get, but in some cases, it might get tricky when you are choosing between the best possible brands in the world. Like choosing between Columbia's corporate or Harvard's, Berkeley's IP or UPenn, NYU's Tax or Stanford. It can get even worse like being torn between two LLM programs at a top UK Law school and a top US Law school. Don't let names play the only role in your admission decision. Put practicalities first as long as the name is still so prestigious.

2) "NYU's LLM is a very large program, it admits 400 people and they sit in the same class!" : This is a very widespread misconception. NYU's LLM does admit 400 candidates out of more than 2800. But here is a couple of things; firstly, many of the admitted students are Americans who are pursuing an LLM in taxation, some claim that they may amount as high as 150 students. Accordingly, the number of admitted foreigners may amount to only 250 which is very close to the number that Columbia admits. Secondly, LLMs don't sit in the same class. They are dispersed upon various courses alongside with 2 and 3 Ls according to their course preferences. Some in this guide who studied there has provided that the class is around 50-70 with famous courses and can get to only 10-25 students at other courses. Therefore, if you are comparing between Columbia and NYU, which takes place annually, please disregard the class size argument while reaching your decision.

3) Prestige and selectivity: we all might agree that the less the acceptance rate is, the more prestigious the Law school will be. The misconception lies in the next step, which is checking the acceptance rates of the JDs. Although sometimes it might reveal a lot about the Law school's overall selectivity, it gets more deceiving the larger the Law school is. As a larger selective Law school will always let in more applicants than a smaller selective one. Also, take into consideration the number of LLM applicants and how many of them are admitted each year. And accordingly, you can figure out the acceptance rate of the LLM program.

4) UK LLMs vs US LLMs: sometimes people face a dilemma while choosing between Chicago, NYU, and Columbia and Oxbridge. Many countries prefer US LLMs more as they are considered more competitive to get in. Also, they allow you to take the US bar exam which, by its turn, can allow you to be admitted for the UK bar, but not vice versa. While UK, especially oxbridge, are much more better than US Law schools in the PhD they offer.

5) Please do take everything you read in this guide with a grain of salt. And try to do your own objective researches. Because only you can know what is the best Law school for you.

Thank you.

[Edited by The will of fire on Apr 23, 2017]

I recently noticed many uninformed and delusive posts in this guide for the past 4 years that I want to reflect upon briefly. This is mostly for future applicants to avoid some mistakes we all fell for.

1) Do you pursue a brand or an education or both? mostly, brands are there because they reflect the quality of the education you get, but in some cases, it might get tricky when you are choosing between the best possible brands in the world. Like choosing between Columbia's corporate or Harvard's, Berkeley's IP or UPenn, NYU's Tax or Stanford. It can get even worse like being torn between two LLM programs at a top UK Law school and a top US Law school. Don't let names play the only role in your admission decision. Put practicalities first as long as the name is still so prestigious.

2) "NYU's LLM is a very large program, it admits 400 people and they sit in the same class!" : This is a very widespread misconception. NYU's LLM does admit 400 candidates out of more than 2800. But here is a couple of things; firstly, many of the admitted students are Americans who are pursuing an LLM in taxation, some claim that they may amount as high as 150 students. Accordingly, the number of admitted foreigners may amount to only 250 which is very close to the number that Columbia admits. Secondly, LLMs don't sit in the same class. They are dispersed upon various courses alongside with 2 and 3 Ls according to their course preferences. Some in this guide who studied there has provided that the class is around 50-70 with famous courses and can get to only 10-25 students at other courses. Therefore, if you are comparing between Columbia and NYU, which takes place annually, please disregard the class size argument while reaching your decision.

3) Prestige and selectivity: we all might agree that the less the acceptance rate is, the more prestigious the Law school will be. The misconception lies in the next step, which is checking the acceptance rates of the JDs. Although sometimes it might reveal a lot about the Law school's overall selectivity, it gets more deceiving the larger the Law school is. As a larger selective Law school will always let in more applicants than a smaller selective one. Also, take into consideration the number of LLM applicants and how many of them are admitted each year. And accordingly, you can figure out the acceptance rate of the LLM program.

4) UK LLMs vs US LLMs: sometimes people face a dilemma while choosing between Chicago, NYU, and Columbia and Oxbridge. Many countries prefer US LLMs more as they are considered more competitive to get in. Also, they allow you to take the US bar exam which, by its turn, can allow you to be admitted for the UK bar, but not vice versa. While UK, especially oxbridge, are much more better than US Law schools in the PhD they offer.

5) Please do take everything you read in this guide with a grain of salt. And try to do your own objective researches. Because only you can know what is the best Law school for you.

Thank you.
quote
robot6


4) UK LLMs vs US LLMs: sometimes people face a dilemma while choosing between Chicago, NYU, and Columbia and Oxbridge. Many countries prefer US LLMs more as they are considered more competitive to get in.


Very helpful post, but this portion seems off. How is Chicago, NYU, and Columbia more competitive to get into than Oxbridge? I know a lot of people (around 20 over the last 4 years) who got into NYU/Columbia with less than stellar grades from their first law degree, while those who got into Oxbridge were mostly in the top 5% of the graduating class. Also, most who were admitted to Oxbridge likewise received offers from Columbia/NYU, but the reverse is not equally true.

The "Big 3" of Yale, Stanford and Harvard appears to be the more apt comparison to Oxbridge.

[Edited by robot6 on Apr 23, 2017]

[quote]

4) UK LLMs vs US LLMs: sometimes people face a dilemma while choosing between Chicago, NYU, and Columbia and Oxbridge. Many countries prefer US LLMs more as they are considered more competitive to get in. [/quote]

Very helpful post, but this portion seems off. How is Chicago, NYU, and Columbia more competitive to get into than Oxbridge? I know a lot of people (around 20 over the last 4 years) who got into NYU/Columbia with less than stellar grades from their first law degree, while those who got into Oxbridge were mostly in the top 5% of the graduating class. Also, most who were admitted to Oxbridge likewise received offers from Columbia/NYU, but the reverse is not equally true.

The "Big 3" of Yale, Stanford and Harvard appears to be the more apt comparison to Oxbridge.
quote
JPeleo

3) Prestige and selectivity: we all might agree that the less the acceptance rate is, the more prestigious the Law school will be. The misconception lies in the next step, which is checking the acceptance rates of the JDs. Although sometimes it might reveal a lot about the Law school's overall selectivity, it gets more deceiving the larger the Law school is. As a larger selective Law school will always let in more applicants than a smaller selective one. Also, take into consideration the number of LLM applicants and how many of them are admitted each year. And accordingly, you can figure out the acceptance rate of the LLM program.


Very helpful post indeed, but this portion seems even more off. I do agree that the acceptance rates for LLMs are more relevant than the rates for JDs, but don't quite understand why you assume that its JD rates we're checking. The LLM acceptance rate at Harvard (around 10%) is significantly lower than its JD rate (16-17%). On the other hand, at both Columbia and NYU the LLM acceptance rate is way higher than their JD acceptance rates. It is ratio of these two numbers (JD/LLM acceptance rate) that speaks volumes about respective school LLM program's prestige and selectivity. And I don't think your statement that a larger selective Law school will always let in more applicants holds true either; Harvard is the largest of the selective law schools, yet it lets in fewer applicants than virtually any of its competitors.

[Edited by JPeleo on Apr 23, 2017]

[quote]
3) Prestige and selectivity: we all might agree that the less the acceptance rate is, the more prestigious the Law school will be. The misconception lies in the next step, which is checking the acceptance rates of the JDs. Although sometimes it might reveal a lot about the Law school's overall selectivity, it gets more deceiving the larger the Law school is. As a larger selective Law school will always let in more applicants than a smaller selective one. Also, take into consideration the number of LLM applicants and how many of them are admitted each year. And accordingly, you can figure out the acceptance rate of the LLM program.
[/quote]

Very helpful post indeed, but this portion seems even more off. I do agree that the acceptance rates for LLMs are more relevant than the rates for JDs, but don't quite understand why you assume that its JD rates we're checking. The LLM acceptance rate at Harvard (around 10%) is significantly lower than its JD rate (16-17%). On the other hand, at both Columbia and NYU the LLM acceptance rate is way higher than their JD acceptance rates. It is ratio of these two numbers (JD/LLM acceptance rate) that speaks volumes about respective school LLM program's prestige and selectivity. And I don't think your statement that a larger selective Law school will always let in more applicants holds true either; Harvard is the largest of the selective law schools, yet it lets in fewer applicants than virtually any of its competitors.
quote
fyodor
Look, NYU kids (I have the impression NYU folks tend to be more defensive of their school).

Stop compensating for the size and ranking of the program. It's a great school and everyone notices so. Stop feeling looked down upon and make the best of the fantastic profs you have (yes, you have Waldron and Revesz to name a few). Also, go have fun in the village (my guess is kids at stanford and yale don't have that luxury). OK. End Joke.

One thing I agree, though: don't listen too much to people here in re if you might or not make it to x school. We're not Admissions Committee.

Second, just go to the school that better fits your needs (impress back home, live in a big city, make a 1000 friends/network people, etc). Just enjoy the LL.M. I am sure we all have worked our butts off to get where we are :)

[Edited by fyodor on Apr 23, 2017]

Look, NYU kids (I have the impression NYU folks tend to be more defensive of their school).

Stop compensating for the size and ranking of the program. It's a great school and everyone notices so. Stop feeling looked down upon and make the best of the fantastic profs you have (yes, you have Waldron and Revesz to name a few). Also, go have fun in the village (my guess is kids at stanford and yale don't have that luxury). OK. End Joke.

One thing I agree, though: don't listen too much to people here in re if you might or not make it to x school. We're not Admissions Committee.

Second, just go to the school that better fits your needs (impress back home, live in a big city, make a 1000 friends/network people, etc). Just enjoy the LL.M. I am sure we all have worked our butts off to get where we are :)
quote


4) UK LLMs vs US LLMs: sometimes people face a dilemma while choosing between Chicago, NYU, and Columbia and Oxbridge. Many countries prefer US LLMs more as they are considered more competitive to get in.


Very helpful post, but this portion seems off. How is Chicago, NYU, and Columbia more competitive to get into than Oxbridge? I know a lot of people (around 20 over the last 4 years) who got into NYU/Columbia with less than stellar grades from their first law degree, while those who got into Oxbridge were mostly in the top 5% of the graduating class. Also, most who were admitted to Oxbridge likewise received offers from Columbia/NYU, but the reverse is not equally true.

The "Big 3" of Yale, Stanford and Harvard appears to be the more apt comparison to Oxbridge.


I Kinda agree with you, but that is what I have read many times from UK applicants in general. And I noticed many application trackers where people are admitted to Cambridge or Oxford, but not to NYU, Columbia, Harvard, SLS, and Yale. But I still agree with you.

[Edited by The will of fire on Apr 23, 2017]

[quote][quote]

4) UK LLMs vs US LLMs: sometimes people face a dilemma while choosing between Chicago, NYU, and Columbia and Oxbridge. Many countries prefer US LLMs more as they are considered more competitive to get in. [/quote]

Very helpful post, but this portion seems off. How is Chicago, NYU, and Columbia more competitive to get into than Oxbridge? I know a lot of people (around 20 over the last 4 years) who got into NYU/Columbia with less than stellar grades from their first law degree, while those who got into Oxbridge were mostly in the top 5% of the graduating class. Also, most who were admitted to Oxbridge likewise received offers from Columbia/NYU, but the reverse is not equally true.

The "Big 3" of Yale, Stanford and Harvard appears to be the more apt comparison to Oxbridge.[/quote]

I Kinda agree with you, but that is what I have read many times from UK applicants in general. And I noticed many application trackers where people are admitted to Cambridge or Oxford, but not to NYU, Columbia, Harvard, SLS, and Yale. But I still agree with you.
quote

3) Prestige and selectivity: we all might agree that the less the acceptance rate is, the more prestigious the Law school will be. The misconception lies in the next step, which is checking the acceptance rates of the JDs. Although sometimes it might reveal a lot about the Law school's overall selectivity, it gets more deceiving the larger the Law school is. As a larger selective Law school will always let in more applicants than a smaller selective one. Also, take into consideration the number of LLM applicants and how many of them are admitted each year. And accordingly, you can figure out the acceptance rate of the LLM program.


Very helpful post indeed, but this portion seems even more off. I do agree that the acceptance rates for LLMs are more relevant than the rates for JDs, but don't quite understand why you assume that its JD rates we're checking. The LLM acceptance rate at Harvard (around 10%) is significantly lower than its JD rate (16-17%). On the other hand, at both Columbia and NYU the LLM acceptance rate is way higher than their JD acceptance rates. It is ratio of these two numbers (JD/LLM acceptance rate) that speaks volumes about respective school LLM program's prestige and selectivity. And I don't think your statement that a larger selective Law school will always let in more applicants holds true either; Harvard is the largest of the selective law schools, yet it lets in fewer applicants than virtually any of its competitors.


I like all the posts arguing some aspects of my post because that is the main reason I made this discussion: to benefit others, especially future applicants.

I agree and disagree with you, I disagree with that Columbia and NYU's JD acceptance rates are higher than the LLMs acceptance rate. (21% and 29% respectively, compared to around 14% for LLMs)

And I agree with you that Harvard might be the only exception to my argument. But that doesn't fully rebut my argument. And I'm sure you will agree with me that exceptions don't eliminate the general rule.

[Edited by The will of fire on Apr 23, 2017]

[quote][quote]
3) Prestige and selectivity: we all might agree that the less the acceptance rate is, the more prestigious the Law school will be. The misconception lies in the next step, which is checking the acceptance rates of the JDs. Although sometimes it might reveal a lot about the Law school's overall selectivity, it gets more deceiving the larger the Law school is. As a larger selective Law school will always let in more applicants than a smaller selective one. Also, take into consideration the number of LLM applicants and how many of them are admitted each year. And accordingly, you can figure out the acceptance rate of the LLM program.
[/quote]

Very helpful post indeed, but this portion seems even more off. I do agree that the acceptance rates for LLMs are more relevant than the rates for JDs, but don't quite understand why you assume that its JD rates we're checking. The LLM acceptance rate at Harvard (around 10%) is significantly lower than its JD rate (16-17%). On the other hand, at both Columbia and NYU the LLM acceptance rate is way higher than their JD acceptance rates. It is ratio of these two numbers (JD/LLM acceptance rate) that speaks volumes about respective school LLM program's prestige and selectivity. And I don't think your statement that a larger selective Law school will always let in more applicants holds true either; Harvard is the largest of the selective law schools, yet it lets in fewer applicants than virtually any of its competitors.[/quote]

I like all the posts arguing some aspects of my post because that is the main reason I made this discussion: to benefit others, especially future applicants.

I agree and disagree with you, I disagree with that Columbia and NYU's JD acceptance rates are higher than the LLMs acceptance rate. (21% and 29% respectively, compared to around 14% for LLMs)

And I agree with you that Harvard might be the only exception to my argument. But that doesn't fully rebut my argument. And I'm sure you will agree with me that exceptions don't eliminate the general rule.
quote
Look, NYU kids (I have the impression NYU folks tend to be more defensive of their school).

Stop compensating for the size and ranking of the program. It's a great school and everyone notices so. Stop feeling looked down upon and make the best of the fantastic profs you have (yes, you have Waldron and Revesz to name a few). Also, go have fun in the village (my guess is kids at stanford and yale don't have that luxury).

One thing I agree, though: don't listen too much to people here in re if you might or not make it to x school. We're not Admissions Committee.


The size and ranking of NYU are perfect to those who are informed enough to understand that the program won't let you sit in a class with 400 fellows. World ranking of NYU Law is the highest in the US after Harvard, Yale, and Stanford.
If you wanna mock me, don't call me an NYU kid, because it's a great honor to me. And if you don't like NYU, its your right. But please keep this discussion for making useful arguments and benefiting others. I'm not trying to defend anything. NYU Law doesn't need defending. I am trying to shed some light on mistakes that many, including myself, usually fall for.

[Edited by The will of fire on Apr 23, 2017]

[quote]Look, NYU kids (I have the impression NYU folks tend to be more defensive of their school).

Stop compensating for the size and ranking of the program. It's a great school and everyone notices so. Stop feeling looked down upon and make the best of the fantastic profs you have (yes, you have Waldron and Revesz to name a few). Also, go have fun in the village (my guess is kids at stanford and yale don't have that luxury).

One thing I agree, though: don't listen too much to people here in re if you might or not make it to x school. We're not Admissions Committee.[/quote]

The size and ranking of NYU are perfect to those who are informed enough to understand that the program won't let you sit in a class with 400 fellows. World ranking of NYU Law is the highest in the US after Harvard, Yale, and Stanford.
If you wanna mock me, don't call me an NYU kid, because it's a great honor to me. And if you don't like NYU, its your right. But please keep this discussion for making useful arguments and benefiting others. I'm not trying to defend anything. NYU Law doesn't need defending. I am trying to shed some light on mistakes that many, including myself, usually fall for.
quote
fyodor
I apologize if I offended you. TBF, I was mocking the whole selectivity discussion. I did re-read my post before you replied, because I realized the joke might not have come across properly

As I edited (and put in my original post) rankings are just... that. Ultimately, you have to balance your need, taste, personality, purpose and possibilities. Which is why I think discussions based on selectivity and class size only serve "bragging purposes" at best (and go back for many years). Some people like the idea of meeting as many people as they can, others like to be part of a "club". Big deal.

And although forums like these are great to provide insights, they are just that (which I was I ended my original post saying not to trust online surveys on whether or not you'll make it into a school). Just go with your gut feeling. I am sure everyone has worked their butt off to get that wonderful admission letter from their dream school.

I am glad you are proud to be called an NYU student. NYU is a great school. Good luck, enjoy the professors, the village and everything that it will offer to you.

Look, NYU kids (I have the impression NYU folks tend to be more defensive of their school).

Stop compensating for the size and ranking of the program. It's a great school and everyone notices so. Stop feeling looked down upon and make the best of the fantastic profs you have (yes, you have Waldron and Revesz to name a few). Also, go have fun in the village (my guess is kids at stanford and yale don't have that luxury).

One thing I agree, though: don't listen too much to people here in re if you might or not make it to x school. We're not Admissions Committee.


The size and ranking of NYU are perfect to those who are informed enough to understand that the program won't let you sit in a class with 400 fellows. World ranking of NYU Law is the highest in the US after Harvard, Yale, and Stanford.
If you wanna mock me, don't call me an NYU kid, because it's a great honor to me. And if you don't like NYU, its your right. But please keep this discussion for making useful arguments and benefiting others. I'm not trying to defend anything. NYU Law doesn't need defending. I am trying to shed some light on mistakes that many, including myself, usually fall for.
I apologize if I offended you. TBF, I was mocking the whole selectivity discussion. I did re-read my post before you replied, because I realized the joke might not have come across properly

As I edited (and put in my original post) rankings are just... that. Ultimately, you have to balance your need, taste, personality, purpose and possibilities. Which is why I think discussions based on selectivity and class size only serve "bragging purposes" at best (and go back for many years). Some people like the idea of meeting as many people as they can, others like to be part of a "club". Big deal.

And although forums like these are great to provide insights, they are just that (which I was I ended my original post saying not to trust online surveys on whether or not you'll make it into a school). Just go with your gut feeling. I am sure everyone has worked their butt off to get that wonderful admission letter from their dream school.

I am glad you are proud to be called an NYU student. NYU is a great school. Good luck, enjoy the professors, the village and everything that it will offer to you.

[quote][quote]Look, NYU kids (I have the impression NYU folks tend to be more defensive of their school).

Stop compensating for the size and ranking of the program. It's a great school and everyone notices so. Stop feeling looked down upon and make the best of the fantastic profs you have (yes, you have Waldron and Revesz to name a few). Also, go have fun in the village (my guess is kids at stanford and yale don't have that luxury).

One thing I agree, though: don't listen too much to people here in re if you might or not make it to x school. We're not Admissions Committee.[/quote]

The size and ranking of NYU are perfect to those who are informed enough to understand that the program won't let you sit in a class with 400 fellows. World ranking of NYU Law is the highest in the US after Harvard, Yale, and Stanford.
If you wanna mock me, don't call me an NYU kid, because it's a great honor to me. And if you don't like NYU, its your right. But please keep this discussion for making useful arguments and benefiting others. I'm not trying to defend anything. NYU Law doesn't need defending. I am trying to shed some light on mistakes that many, including myself, usually fall for. [/quote]
quote
I apologize if I offended you. TBF, I was mocking the whole selectivity discussion. I did re-read my post before you replied, because I realized the joke might not have come across properly

As I edited (and put in my original post) rankings are just... that. Ultimately, you have to balance your need, taste, personality, purpose and possibilities. Which is why I think discussions based on selectivity and class size only serve "bragging purposes" at best (and go back for many years). Some people like the idea of meeting as many people as they can, others like to be part of a "club". Big deal.

And although forums like these are great to provide insights, they are just that (which I was I ended my original post saying not to trust online surveys on whether or not you'll make it into a school). Just go with your gut feeling. I am sure everyone has worked their butt off to get that wonderful admission letter from their dream school.

I am glad you are proud to be called an NYU student. NYU is a great school. Good luck, enjoy the professors, the village and everything that it will offer to you.

Look, NYU kids (I have the impression NYU folks tend to be more defensive of their school).

Stop compensating for the size and ranking of the program. It's a great school and everyone notices so. Stop feeling looked down upon and make the best of the fantastic profs you have (yes, you have Waldron and Revesz to name a few). Also, go have fun in the village (my guess is kids at stanford and yale don't have that luxury).

One thing I agree, though: don't listen too much to people here in re if you might or not make it to x school. We're not Admissions Committee.


The size and ranking of NYU are perfect to those who are informed enough to understand that the program won't let you sit in a class with 400 fellows. World ranking of NYU Law is the highest in the US after Harvard, Yale, and Stanford.
If you wanna mock me, don't call me an NYU kid, because it's a great honor to me. And if you don't like NYU, its your right. But please keep this discussion for making useful arguments and benefiting others. I'm not trying to defend anything. NYU Law doesn't need defending. I am trying to shed some light on mistakes that many, including myself, usually fall for.


I totally agree with you. And no hard feelings here! Wish you all the best!
[quote]I apologize if I offended you. TBF, I was mocking the whole selectivity discussion. I did re-read my post before you replied, because I realized the joke might not have come across properly

As I edited (and put in my original post) rankings are just... that. Ultimately, you have to balance your need, taste, personality, purpose and possibilities. Which is why I think discussions based on selectivity and class size only serve "bragging purposes" at best (and go back for many years). Some people like the idea of meeting as many people as they can, others like to be part of a "club". Big deal.

And although forums like these are great to provide insights, they are just that (which I was I ended my original post saying not to trust online surveys on whether or not you'll make it into a school). Just go with your gut feeling. I am sure everyone has worked their butt off to get that wonderful admission letter from their dream school.

I am glad you are proud to be called an NYU student. NYU is a great school. Good luck, enjoy the professors, the village and everything that it will offer to you.

[quote][quote]Look, NYU kids (I have the impression NYU folks tend to be more defensive of their school).

Stop compensating for the size and ranking of the program. It's a great school and everyone notices so. Stop feeling looked down upon and make the best of the fantastic profs you have (yes, you have Waldron and Revesz to name a few). Also, go have fun in the village (my guess is kids at stanford and yale don't have that luxury).

One thing I agree, though: don't listen too much to people here in re if you might or not make it to x school. We're not Admissions Committee.[/quote]

The size and ranking of NYU are perfect to those who are informed enough to understand that the program won't let you sit in a class with 400 fellows. World ranking of NYU Law is the highest in the US after Harvard, Yale, and Stanford.
If you wanna mock me, don't call me an NYU kid, because it's a great honor to me. And if you don't like NYU, its your right. But please keep this discussion for making useful arguments and benefiting others. I'm not trying to defend anything. NYU Law doesn't need defending. I am trying to shed some light on mistakes that many, including myself, usually fall for. [/quote][/quote]

I totally agree with you. And no hard feelings here! Wish you all the best!
quote

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