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Oxford BCL and Cambridge LLM Applicants 2009

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BCWhatever

Joined: 30 Jun 2009
Posts: 1
Oxford BCL and Cambridge LLM Applicants 2009
Wed Jul 01, 2009 08:53 PM
In addition to Magwa's remarks:

1) Evidence;
Definitely. But almost entirely focussed on criminal law. If you're interested in privilege - which is to say, if you don't intend to go to the criminal bar - do Civil Procedure instead. Zuckerman's a hoot, and one of the top 2 in the world in his field. I repeat: this is really a course for intending CRIMINAL barristers. Even the reading list for privilege is largely treated as an opportunity to discuss public interest immunity.

2) Jurisprudence and Political theory;
Again: definitely. Doesn't get better than Oxford if Juris floats your boat.

3) Socio economic rights;
Haha.

4) corporate business taxation;
Wouldn't have the first idea. But from a practice point of view: if you're thinking transactional work, tax decides nearly everything. So it would be useful to have a handle on it.

5) International dispute settlement;
Ludicrously lightweight. Prepare for big international 'court' love-in.

6) Advanced property and trusts.
Despite Magwa's prejudices, a good course. It's also your only opportunity to be taught by BMc. Ben McFarlane. Big. Dog. Watch that space.

7) Principles of Civil Procedure;
See above. Nearly everyone doing it seems to regard it as a great subject. Would probably like to have done it myself ... It's possible you will get more out of it if you've spent some time as a solicitor - or at the bar, though I appreciate it would be unusual to come from the (English, at any rate) bar to the BCL - but by no means necessary.

8) Constituional Theory;
No idea. I imagine if you find constitutions interesting, you'll find this interesting. Useless for the next 30 years of your practice, in all likelihood.

9) Conflict of Laws.
Agreed. Brilliant course. Professor (definitely "Professor", even on this forum) Briggs is scarily brilliant. Reputedly scary too (though I've never understood that). Ed Peel makes for a good double act.
Huge respect in the real world. A difficult topic that most practitioners (and the ECJ, but that's a different story) get wrong when they come across it.

2 others I'd suggest thinking about for those who are planning on doing the BCL (by which I mean private law subjects). RUMOUR has it:
(a) Jamie Edelman and Ed Peel are taking a Remedies course next year - which would likely be extremely useful for practice, and is (in my view, at least) an excellent area for research. If BMc is teaching as well, make it a priority. Assuming it's offered ...

(b) John Armour is on sabbatical in the US for Michelmas next year. Which means Insolvency will be taught in Hilary and Trinity 2010. By all means do it - it's an excellent course - but be prepared to do a huge amount of self-motivated work in Michelmas, otherwise you will die. I don't mean that figuratively. And it won't be easy to make time to do work on Insolvency. Unless you choose some lightweights, 2 serious BCL courses are good for about 8-10 hours a day, 6 or 7 days a week.

If you want your life to be manageable, or make a good result in the exams more likely, I strongly suggest ensuring there's as much overlap as possible in your courses. Alternatively, you can go for a broad education, but make your chances of a distinction a little slimmer. You pays your money; and takes your choice.

Speaking from a private law perspective: if you want to do commercial / private law, but don't want to be stretched to the limit (and beyond) of sanity, go to Cambridge. It's not easy by any stretch, but it's not the BCL.
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OffIGo

Joined: 21 Apr 2009
Posts: 10
Oxford BCL and Cambridge LLM Applicants 2009
Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:02 PM
Can I just say thanks a bunch to you lot doing the BCL giving freshers the low down on subjects. I, for one, really appreciate it.

I had intended to take: Evidence, Con Theory (if offered), Phil Found of CL and Competition Law.

Judging from above, though, I think maybe I'll swap evidence for civil procedure.

I work in public law so Con Theory will be useful to me. I hope it'll be offered.

Any tips on Phil Found of CL? Worth doing? And anyone doing Competition? My employer is giving me some dosh to study so in exchange I said I'd take competition law, as it's the area I generally work in (for the government regulator).

I was going to do Resto. Number 5 on my list unfortunately. Not heaps useful for my practice (which will probably be the opposite for most) but totally enthralling... I'd recommend it.

For those going to Cambridge - Virgo is an absolute gun, and one to watch in that field. A very, very, very good source here in Oz advised Virgo over the guys at Oxford for Resto. I'd take that advice if you can.

Can I also offer this perspective on subject selection: It will be unlikely that you'll ever get another opportunity to do subjects you like and are interested in at this level (unless you're going to be a forever academic). Practical and useful subjects are fine but It's the Oxford BCL - employers aren't gonna care too much if what you took was practical or not! You'll be an Oxford grad! Take the opportunity to do stuff you WANT to do.
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QSWE

Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 674
Oxford BCL and Cambridge LLM Applicants 2009
Thu Jul 02, 2009 02:49 AM
M

[Edited by QSWE on 31 Oct 2009]
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M_T_Cicero

Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 56
Oxford BCL Queries
Thu Jul 02, 2009 09:47 AM
Thanks to all those posting advice to the potential Oxford freshers and good luck to you in your upcoming exams.

I think most of my potential modules have been covered, although any comment on Law and Society in Medieval England (which may be difficult, as only about 2 people seem to take it each year) and Comparative Public Law (particularly, the extend to which you really need to be converse in French, if anyone has any experience). I知 aware that neither are particularly relevant to practice, but as I tend to be veering towards academia, this is of little relevance to me.

It is interesting that a few people have commented about going to Cambridge. Now, while if anyone was to be looking to join the English commercial Bar or one of the top chambers, or, indeed, if someone is looking to focus on private law or return back to a common law country and practice where the BCL remains so well thought of (perhaps I知 thinking Australia in particular), I completely see that there is no real option but to go for the BCL; is the option so straightforward for a home grown academic hopeful? While, yes, the retention of the tutorial system on the BCL is a fantastic plus for Oxford, as I want to go onto research study it would be silly for me not to do a dissertation as one option (which Cambridge provide for in a seminar class, which ensures good, group supervision) and, as my interests are veering towards constitutional/public law and legal history, which are going to have small seminar style classes at Cambridge anyway (well, at least 2 or 3 of my options will), I wonder whether I really need the tutorial system, as I値l already sort of, kind of, potentially, have it; if you see what I知 getting at... Plus, I致e done something of a recognisance and really, while some institutions and academics are aware of the BCL and it reputation, some of them found it doubtful (which, I知 not for a second) and many told me it doesn稚 really matter as your successes as an academic will ultimately come down to your publication record, not whether you chose Oxford or Cambridge for LLM/BCL and, potentially, PhD/DPhil. Essentially, if you perform with distinction on the Cambridge (which, as said by others, is still by no means easy), you can still find a good junior academic job and then the rest is down to you.

If you can understand and follow my ramblings, any thoughts would be most welcome. Cheers!
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bchell

Joined: 30 Jun 2009
Posts: 6
Oxford BCL Queries
Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:48 AM
DO NOT DO CPL UNLESS YOU REALLY LIKE THE FRENCH.

You will lose the plot otherwise.

No French needed, but it is incredibly frustrating to try to learn about what the French laughably call a legal system. The guy who partly runs the show is a weapon though. But he doesn't take the French part. And that's where it all goes pear-shaped.

You'll find yourself on google trying to figure out what all these ridiculous French "legal concepts" entail. Then you find out that they don't mean anything. It is intolerable.

I have no idea what the other person is talking about with the reference to 'research'. If you mean "Will I be reading ridiculously large amounts of information?", then, yes. If you mean "Will I be doing lots of legal research?", then, no. The courses are self-contained. You'd be mad to do much reading off the list. In fact you'd be mad to do the BCL.
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Magwa118

Joined: 29 Jun 2009
Posts: 4
Oxford BCL Queries
Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:54 AM
Australian academics would say Virgo is a gun. Because Grantham and Rickett are beguiled by his views on property.

Don't do restitution anywhere but Oxford. Oxford is its home. Birks was here. Burrows is here. Swadling is such a big swinging dick, its not even funny. MASSIVE dog.

If you do it in Cambridge you have to put up with "vindication of property rights" as a theory for beneficiary's right to claim interest in substitute assets. Simply wrong and incoherent, despite Foskett v McKeown.

If you want to be an academic then i'm sure, in the long run, it doesn't matter if you do the BCL, LLM, or Wipe my Arse and Eat it.

The English Bar, however, and particularly the best chambers recognise that the BCL is top banana. I was told by a certain chambers that the only thing on a CV that would REALLY impress, make them stand back and say "well, that is one clever cookie" is a distinction in the BCL. The rest, as they say, is silence.

BcHell: your thoughts please on Virgo. (I decided against failure of consideration BTW. Will chance it tomorrow. We'll be fine)
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bchell

Joined: 30 Jun 2009
Posts: 6
Oxford BCL Queries
Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:10 AM
Ah yes, Magwa is correct. The last thing you want to do is learn:
1. Property is an event or;
2. Vindication of property rights explains cases like Foskett.

There's a view out there, which is put at Cambridge inter alia, that property explains all. If you learn that and only that you will miss the mainstream view.

You would be absolutely mad to go anywhere else for Restitution. Get onto Bailii or any other legal research site and have a look at the number of times Swads, Burrows, Edelman, Stevens, Mitchell and of course Professor Birks are cited. It's pretty enthralling being in a seminar, reading the cases and find out that the three guys taking the seminar are all cited with approval. For example check out DMG, FII and Westdeutsche: three rather recent cases where people who have taught Magwa and I have been cited with approval.

One of the things Oxford offers too, don't forget, is the chance to go to undergrad lectures. Undergrads here are spoiled for choice. Every week you can see the world's biggest guns in private and public law lecturing for free. It's pretty impressive.

Magwa: I'm relieved. Let's hope.
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Garrulouse

Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Posts: 1
Oxford BCL Queries
Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:43 AM
If offered nxt yr, Constitutional Theory sounds less lightweight and more a subset of heavyweight Jurisp & PT from what I found on the 'Legal Philosophy in Oxford' websites.
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QSWE

Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 674
Oxford BCL Queries
Thu Jul 02, 2009 02:26 PM
T

[Edited by QSWE on 31 Oct 2009]
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PublicBCL

Joined: 30 Jun 2009
Posts: 7
Oxford BCL Queries
Thu Jul 02, 2009 02:38 PM
The BCL is not a research degree, and it will not provide you with much in the way of additional research skills (you are provided with lengthy weekly reading lists, which you are required to read; research beyond the lists is unusual and not necessarily helpful). The lists are long.

The one exception is if you do (i) a dissertation in lieu of one subject or (ii) Jurisprudence & Political Theory, in which case you do extended research essays.

Other than that, there's not much to say about research and the BCL. If you wanted to you could follow the BCL with a full research degree (i.e. Mphil or Dphil) but I do not know much about how they work.
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LawyerinUSA

Joined: 16 Feb 2009
Posts: 46
Oxford BCL Queries
Thu Jul 02, 2009 03:32 PM
Other than that, there's not much to say about research and the BCL. If you wanted to you could follow the BCL with a full research degree (i.e. Mphil or Dphil) but I do not know much about how they work.


Graduates of both universities' doctoral programs have advised me that the taught programs and the research-based programs are dissimilar.

Also, as an American, I note that Oxford and Cambridge are viewed as nearly identical in quality. In other words, both are outstanding.

Regardless, as I have noted in previous posts, a prestigious education certainly opens doors; however, a practicing lawyer will thrive or fail based upon personal drive, skills, and commitment.

[Edited by LawyerinUSA on 02 Jul 2009]
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QSWE

Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 674
Oxford BCL Queries
Thu Jul 02, 2009 05:41 PM
I

[Edited by QSWE on 31 Oct 2009]
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QSWE

Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 674
Oxford BCL Queries
Thu Jul 02, 2009 05:44 PM
And, once again, I am thankful to everyone for the help and for your precious time.
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AlvinSee


Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 242
Oxford BCL Queries
Thu Jul 02, 2009 06:17 PM
Reflecting similar sentiments with Jagmehn, I express my utmost gratitude to all of you, senior BCLers who have offered such invaluable insights which we couldn't possibly expect more. They have made me rethink my future approaches to the BCL, in particular in relation to subject selections. THank you :)

[Edited by AlvinSee on 02 Jul 2009]
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OffIGo

Joined: 21 Apr 2009
Posts: 10
Oxford BCL Queries
Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:59 PM
Sigh - did I just see a straight up shoot down Virgo and Cambridge on the resto issue? I had hoped the sterotypical Oxford shut down on anyone else having anything to say about resto was all a rumour. Difference of opinions do not equate to 'wrong'. 'Wrong' is a fabricated contumely.

I'll second the LawyerfromUSA comment. From an overseas perspective Oxford and Cambridge are on-par. The Cambridge course strikes me as a much more commercially minded course. The Oxford course has more public law and philosophy of law options. Both are great.
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NYU 2L

Joined: 05 Aug 2008
Posts: 3
Oxford BCL Queries
Fri Jul 03, 2009 01:36 AM
I was hoping to find this same thread but for 2010. But maybe those of you who have been accepted to one of these programs already can be of even greater help. I'm wondering if those more knowledgeable than I can assess my chances of getting accepted to Oxford's BCL or Cambridge's LLM program. Frankly, I have no sense of the sort of competition that I face, and I'm not sure if applying would be worth the trouble.

I'm graduating in 2010 from one of the top five law schools in the US with a 3.5 GPA (lower end of top quartile of the class). I'm on Law Review. During my two summer vacations I've worked at two different major American law firms, one of which is ranked in the top 10 on Vault.

Before law school I worked in management consulting, served in the military, and before that I graduated first in my class from a large state university.

I have no idea what the profile of the entering class at Oxford or Cambridge looks like. I don't know any Americans planning to apply. However, I'm studying at Oxford next semester as part of an exchange program, and I'm interested in moving permanently to the UK (I'm Irish and I'd like to return). I think the BCL or LLM would provide an excellent transition, not to mention allowing me to sit out a year of the global recession.

I would greatly appreciate a bit of the wisdom of the masses, if any of you would be so kind as to educate me.
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AlvinSee


Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 242
Oxford BCL Queries
Fri Jul 03, 2009 08:32 AM
Actually I think Virgo is a nice person. He even commented on a written piece of mine which I've sent to him randomly.

NYU 2L, is a 3.5 equivalent to a 1st Class? (summa cum laude?).
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AlvinSee


Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 242
Oxford BCL and Cambridge LLM Applicants 2009
Fri Jul 03, 2009 09:19 AM
@Public BCL: "Take home exams"? You sure are not suggesting that the BCL is more prestigious than the Harvard LLM? I can understand Cambridge, and even Yale, but Harvard? Do they really do take home exams?

@Alvin: Hey Alvin. Goodluck in your professional qualification exams. I perfectly understand you because i had undergone a similar situation 2006/2007 when i took my Bar qualification exams at the Nigerian Law School. A legion of statutory authorities, and hordes of case law to not only remember but also apply appropriately. It was like a purification of my academic soul. And, like you have if there, you also have to pass this exam before you qualify as a lawyer in Nigeria.

Best of luck, and just aside, i am yet to hear from a college, and this is driving me loco.


Awojc, nearly forgot, many thanks! I'll be bringing those luck you gave me into the exam hall :)
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Awojc

Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 65
Oxford BCL and Cambridge LLM Applicants 2009
Fri Jul 03, 2009 09:37 AM
Guys, thanks for all the posts, particularly from the "BCL Old Boys". May i ask about this course i saw in my offer letter - Commercial Remedies. I suppose it is new, but can one harzard a guess as to what it may look like or contain - from the standpoint of the contents of similar courses. Although, i don't know much about it yet, i am rooting for it because i plan to be in transactional corporate practise.
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Awojc

Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 65
Oxford BCL and Cambridge LLM Applicants 2009
Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:06 AM
Further to my post above, i intend to take the following combinations - unless i am persuaded by better reason to change course - in the BCL.
1. Commercial Remedies (if offered) - this is non-negotiable.
2. Corporate Finance Law
3. Corporate Insolvency
4. Corporate and Business Taxation/or Transnational Commercial Law.
BCL Old Boys could you please advise on this combination, particularly regarding the volume of work required, and the efficacy of the combination. As i commented above, i am into corporate and commercial practise, but a distinction would also not be a bad idea, and i would/may alter the set up to reduce the workload, if necessary.

Thanks all.
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PublicBCL

Joined: 30 Jun 2009
Posts: 7
Oxford BCL and Cambridge LLM Applicants 2009
Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:41 PM
2 and a half comments.

(1) On the "research" question. Every BCL subject involves huge amounts of material, usually addressed in a very critical way. The BCL is not a course where you just roll up and get taught that "the law of x is y". Any JD/LLM degree will do that. At Ox, you are expected to teach yourself that stuff through readings (and the occasional lecture).
The BCL is aimed, rather, at high level critical analysis. This will be useful in practice (especially for those at the Bar) but it also lends itself very well to those wanting to make a career in academia/research (ie any subject does).

(2) On subject choice. During your orientation fortnight you will have the opportunity to listen to 'taster lectures' - like trailers for a film. You should not reach any solid conclusions about what subjects you are "definitely" going to do, or what subjects are "non-negotiable", until you are on the ground in Oxford and have heard those taster lectures. Also realise that doing a subject in the 1st year it has run has inherent risks.

(2.5) You may wish to do a subject that will interest you even if it is not of use to your future career (Jurisprudence or Phil/Founds for example).

[Edited by PublicBCL on 03 Jul 2009]
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QSWE

Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 674
Oxford BCL and Cambridge LLM Applicants 2009
Fri Jul 03, 2009 01:13 PM
Thanx PublicBCL for your views. At last, you have adressed what I wanted to know.

[Edited by QSWE on 31 Oct 2009]
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cognos

Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 23
Oxford BCL Queries
Fri Jul 03, 2009 01:15 PM
I would greatly appreciate a bit of the wisdom of the masses, if any of you would be so kind as to educate me.


I think you have an excellent chance, but you shouldn't take admission for granted. With excellent letters of recommendation and a well-crafted application I would rate your chances highly.

NYU has a good name at Oxbridge, and I am sure a letter from the Intl. law types (Weiler would be optimal) would go a very long way.

The conventional wisdom is that Oxford is slightly more selective than Cambridge, as first class honours are a precondition for the B.C.L. Technically, I don't think a 3.5 is the equivalent of a First (rather it is a high 2:1) but I would be surprised if they use this cutoff for top-tier American JDs.

You have a long road ahead of you if you are heading towards English legal practice, the recession will likely be over by the time you qualify. Were you cold-offered by your 2L firm?
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cognos

Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 23
Oxford BCL Queries
Fri Jul 03, 2009 01:20 PM
NYU 2L, is a 3.5 equivalent to a 1st Class? (summa cum laude?).


Magna cum laude on a JD course (top 10%) is the analogue to a 1st, I believe.

One can't determine the GPA equivalent of a 1st without knowing more about the school's grading curve -- a 3.5 on a C+ curve would qualify, on a B+ curve would not.
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NYU 2L

Joined: 05 Aug 2008
Posts: 3
Oxford BCL Queries
Fri Jul 03, 2009 07:40 PM
Thanks for the responses, folks.

cognos, a 3.5 is not the equivalent of summa cum laude. It puts me in the top 25% of the class, or thereabouts. It sounds like BCL admission depends a great deal on grades. Does law review membership do anything for me, is or does that lose currency across the Atlantic?

Also - no, I wasn't cold-offered by my summer firm. I'm still working there now, but no one has any idea how many offer's they'll be giving out. And I'm actually a 3L - my moniker is old, haha.

Sounds like stiff competition! Thanks again!
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