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Re: China LLM

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juliette Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 23	Re: China LLM Fri Feb 18, 2005 08:02 PM Hi kikko, yes those are the two programs I pointed out to you earlier in this board. You can check Star's answer and description about the tsinghua program: its actually a LLM program by Temple university (USA) but appearantly more for Chinese students. I mixed up City and HK uni with the specializations you are right, still havent sent my docs, still waiting for 1 letter of recom. I have applied to UK LLMs in London apart from HK
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kikko78 Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 37	Re: China LLM Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:40 AM Juliette. they have 2 different programme, one with the temple university.. and it's mostly for chinese students and it's about amreican-international law.. and the other one is for non-chinese students and it's about chinese law. I will apply for both the unis in hong kong and at the one in beijin too... I'm considering on applying to others universityies too, but i donno wich one yet.. Did u translated your academic transcripts into english?? and what about the letters of recom.?? are these in english? I will apply on tuesday when, hopefully, i will get both the letters of recom... I think that i will choose asia at the end... it looks so much more interesting... Have u been to beijin??? the city is huge.. not exacteoly what i consider a beautiful city.. but it's charming and it's booming... though in winter time it must be really cold!!! Honk kong has surely a better quality of life and it's very western... i think i'de like to live in both the places.. i wouldn't mind if it's hk or beijing.... I would love shanghai actually... but the only LLM for foreigners i did find.. it last 2.5 years.. too much for me eheheh!!! What score do u have at the toefl? Chicco
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juliette Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 23	Re: China LLM Sat Feb 19, 2005 05:36 PM Hi Kikko, i only found the LLM for Chinese studentswhich on US LAw, wher did you see the other one? My letters of recommendations are in English, yes. But maybe its ok if you write a translation of yours and send it with it.. My TOEFL is not that good, better not ask ;-)
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kikko78 Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 37	Re: China LLM Sat Feb 19, 2005 06:09 PM Juliette, have a look at this link: www.tsinghua.edu.cn/docsn/fxy/english/llmPrgm.htm I will apply to Honk Kong university, Hong Kong city university.. and probabily the one in beijing too.. though.. it's on his first edition and it's mostly related to chinse law.. and i think i'de prefere soemthing more related to international comemrcial law with an asian-chinese relation. So.. at the end.. where are u appling?' i still haven't choose all the Modulese i'de like to o.. did u choose the 8 modulese for each programm ? Chicco
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kikko78 Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 37	Re: China LLM Tue Feb 22, 2005 01:21 PM Juliette, i am ready to send my application.. I am applyinh on line... to day i will send the 2 letters of raccomandation and the transcript of my degree... what about u?? I am applying to 3 masters at the Hing kong univ... LLM, LLM in chinese law, and LLM in Corp. and FInanc. Law... then i will apply also for the city univ and the tsinghuo Univ... so.. did u choose what modules u intend to study? Chicco
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juliette Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 23	Re: China LLM Thu Feb 24, 2005 07:33 PM Hi, Kikko, I sent my applications finally, I hope the postal stamp is enough for the deadline! I chose the same subjects as you, didnt have much time to think about it and your choices seemed pretty good..
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kikko78 Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 37	Re: China LLM Thu Feb 24, 2005 08:12 PM Juliette, i have some news... Right today i went to a conference about china...and i talked to the directors of the italian trade chamber in beijing and hong kong.. they sujjested me to do the LLM in Beijing.. for a series of reasons i don't have time to explain right now ( but i will later). It's been a very nice conference and i have much clearer ideas now... The director of the italian trade chumber in hong kong told me to send him an email about the programmes of the masters... he'll be back to hong kong on monday.. he'll have a look and suggest me what in his opinion could be better... I am applying to the city univ. too and the beijing university (tsinghuo or something). I'll let u know the news... wich subject did u choose?? at the end i did apply for 2 masters.. LLM and LLMCL.... Chicco
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kikko78 Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 37	Re: China LLM Sun Mar 06, 2005 06:15 PM Juliette, is everything all right? I did exchange a few emails with the director of the italian chamber of commerce in hong kong... He said the hong kong university is a very good one... He first suggested me Beijing... but then he said HK uni is very good too.. did u choose what to do? where would u like to go?
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Kevin Joined: 10 Mar 2005 Posts: 6	Re: China LLM Sat Mar 12, 2005 01:38 AM Hi kikko, Looks like HKU's LLM in Chinese Law is well established and has already has a research base. The LLM at Tsinghua has only recently been setup... and in fact 2005 will be its first intake. I reckon there'd be more research papers written in English about Chinese Law at HKU than Tsinghua..... So unless you're proficient in both English and Mandrain, HKU is still a better bet!
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kikko78 Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 37	Re: China LLM Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:53 AM Kevin, thanks for your answer. Of course the Hong Kong University is much more prepared to have foreigner students, but i also think that hing kong is not china... and i think this master is a good opportunity not only to study and understand the chinese law, but also to get involved in chinese culture, society and language. It's a good opportunity to make new contacts with local Law firm, businessmen and so on... I am not sure yet if i'll do the master in law in HK or in Beijing... i'm sure it's gonna be great in both the cities... Have u done a Master in Law in china\Hk ? Chicco
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Kevin Joined: 10 Mar 2005 Posts: 6	Re: China LLM Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:41 AM Hi kikko, Actually, I am in the same position as you are. Am from SIngapore. Can't really decide between the LL.M at HKU or Tsinghua. Am still doing more research on the courses offered. But most of my colleagues know of HKU much better as it is already well established in the area of CHinese Law. I think Tsinghua is better known for its engineering school right? Not sure :) Well, I think what u said about absorbing the culture in Beijing makes sense too.... Sigh..... still can't decide...
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dexter Joined: 26 Mar 2005 Posts: 5	Re: China LLM Sun Mar 27, 2005 06:53 PM I am not sure whether or not foreign law students like you guys are qualified for the bar examination in China( I guess not). So, considering your future career plan, I would encourage you to apply to HKU(the only good law school in HK ) to study the Chinese law. there are several reasons. 1, HKU is the dream place where the west and the east meet, and it has a closer relation with the mainland China than Singapore.2, the law firms in HK have a better reputation than these of other places(like Magic Circle and Top tire law firms ) to deal with the FDI, IPO, MBO and the like in China, which means you can find it easier to land a well paid job in a decent law firm. 3, presently, lawyers in HK can deal with the cases in Mainland China, that's why they are called consultant other than lawyer. However, as the CIPA works, this situation will change soon. the international lawyer's future is bright!^_^
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dexter Joined: 26 Mar 2005 Posts: 5	Re: China LLM Sun Mar 27, 2005 07:04 PM sorry for making a mistake in my third point, the lawyer in HK CAN NOT conduct the cases from MC, coz they r HK lawyers not the Chinese Lawyers, which will change soon after the CIPA goes into effect. PS: u can pursue the JD offered bt city U of HK to be qualified as a HK lawyer.
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rls Joined: 26 Mar 2005 Posts: 1	Re: China LLM Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:31 PM Hi everyone, I'm an American JD who wants to start an LLM program in Chinese law (taught in English) later this year. Last December I applied to the National University of Singapore's program. Right now I'm preparing an application to Tsinghua University in Beijing, which is due May 10. I've never been to Singapore, but the program sound interesting. Plus, it offers full scholarships to foreigners like myself. I've visited Tsinghua 1-1/2 years ago when I was living in China. The campus is beautiful! It's just down the street from the Summer Palace. Although Tsinghua is in a city of 15 million people, it has an idyllic campus. I think it would be a great place to study Chinese law. And the Chinese government offers full scholarships to foreigners. See for more details. Anyway, I should hear back from NUS in April and Tsinghua in June. I hope I get admitted to both with full scholarships. If so, then I'm unsure how I'll choose which one to attend. I guess I'll have to wait to cross that bridge later. In the meantime, I'd appreciate your comments and info on these programs. Thanks. Best regards, Roy
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zoticogrillo Joined: 12 Apr 2005 Posts: 19	Re: Re: China LLM Wed Apr 13, 2005 01:22 AM I got into that program at NUS. I've looked into Tsinghua. In short, don't do either. Numerous expert scholars in the US strongly advised me not to do either. Practitioners in China said the same. What alternatives did they give me? Sharing relevant words depends on what your goals are. My goals are to practice law in China. Practitioners told me that relevant skills are gained in practice. The best thing to do, they said, was first to be fluent in reading and writing Chinese. Then to practice law in the US for 5-10 years and become an expert in some field relevant to practice in Asia (something related to business and corporate law). The scholars also said that I need to be fluent in Mandarin Chinese. Then they said that the best programs are at the best schools in China and the United States. In case you didn't know, some of the best LAW schools in China include, as I understand them to be (in ranking): Beijing (Peking) U, Renmin U, Fudan, East China, Nanjing, and Xiamen and Zhongshan follow somewhere not far from this stratum. Tsinghua law school doesn't have a good reputation. It's a very new school and is groping for ranking and funding. My Chinese friends who graduated from there have a really hard time finding jobs. ANY jobs. NUS law school doesn't have the best reputation outside of Singapore, and has a poor reputation outside of Asia. People feel that the department isn't a serious academic institution, and is very politicized. If you don't speak Chinese, and don't plan on learning: first of all, I'm really curious why you think a LLM in Chinese law is useful at all. Because you can't do anything with it--neither teach nor practice. But, you may nevertheless find the best program to be at Hong Kong University. I highly recommend it (for objective reasons). And even the program at City University of Hong Kong is better than the ones you have considered. Neither require Chinese language ability. If you want to learn Chinese, the best programs are the Inter-University Program (IUP) at Tsinghua, the International Chinese Language Program (ICLP) at National Taiwan U, Princeton at Beijing Normal, CET in Harbin, and FALCON at Cornell (please note that I didn't mention the Hopkins program at Nanjing, nor the Cambridge program in Beijing). All the best!
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zoticogrillo Joined: 12 Apr 2005 Posts: 19	Re: Re: China LLM Wed Apr 13, 2005 01:57 AM This is odd. This is my third reply to this post. In summary of my other replies: I thought about doing it, but after every practitioner and scholar I talked to told me not to, I decided against it. It might satisfy your pride to go to a well-known schoo, but it will hurt you financially and will be a waste of time professionally. Both the Tsinghua and NUS law departments have poor reputations, even if the campus in general has a good one. The students I know from those departments can't find jobs. Contact me for more info, if you are interested: spetrini@u.washington.edu Best, zoticogrillo
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smsbs Joined: 09 May 2005 Posts: 4	China LLM Sun Aug 21, 2005 07:19 PM HI every one My name is Saif , from Dubai , I am searching for Master in law program in one of the recognized University in Beijing , which i like to have it in English either by research or part time mode of study , if any one got an idea please help me , email : baba_saif@hotmail.com
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jennyjunk Joined: 07 Aug 2005 Posts: 3	China LLM Thu Sep 01, 2005 07:21 AM It seems that everyone has the same questions as I did, so here it goes. I am an American so didnt really know where to begin my research on Chinese and Hong Kong LL.M. programs. I have a cousin who lives in Beijing and a friend who lives in Hong Kong (who is also an attorney working in a US firm). As an American (or non-Mandarin speaking) person, Hong Kong is a better bet for many reasons: 1. The culture in Hong Kong is much easier to adapt to than in Beijing. Also, you MUST speak Mandarin to survive in Beijing. 2. The programs in Hong Kong are much more established and known in the area. Both programs in Hong Kong are good, but HKU is better regarded. 3. The program in Beijing has only been existance for, well, not even a year, as 2005 is the 1st year the program started. 4. In addition, the program in Beijing is geared towards Chinese doing business in the US (inbound transactions). The Hong Kong programs are geared towards foreigners doing business with China (outbound transactions). Hope that this helps!
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john wang Joined: 07 Sep 2005 Posts: 1	China LLM Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:13 AM The information of LL.M in Chinese Law for non-Chinese law students listed below. www.tsinghua.edu.cn/docsn/fxy/english/llmPrgm.htm LL.M. Program In Chinese Law: An Overview The LL.M. Program In Chinese Law at Tsinghua is the first formal legal educational program ever offered in China for foreign law students and professionals. As a country with a rich cultural heritage and the largest economic market in the world, China ranks first in Foreign Direct Investment for several years and is the fourth largest import/export country worldwide. To ensure sustainable social economic progress, the country has established a complex legal infrastructure by enacting the laws and regulations on a historic scale. Under the newly formed framework of globalization, Chinese law becomes a necessary knowledge for those who have business, culture, academic and political encounters with China. To meet the increasing demand for understanding Chinese laws, Tsinghua Law School launches a LL.M. Program in Chinese law for non-Chinese speaking law students and legal professionals. The program is scheduled to commence in September 2005. An applicant must meet the following requirements: • A J.D. or LL.B. or equivalent law degree; • Enrollment in a J.D. program; or • Qualification to practice law.
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Henri Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 1	China LLM Tue Sep 13, 2005 01:51 AM Hello, I am a law school graduate from Montreal (Canada) and I am interested in doing the LL.M. program in Chinese Law at Tsinghua University in Beijing next year. Is there anyone who has already done the program or is currently doing it? I would like to know how it is? How are the classes? Is it well organized? Is it worth the money? Is it possible to learn mandarin at the same time? How is the class spirit? Thank you in advance! Henri
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enemykombatant Joined: 17 Feb 2007 Posts: 15	China LLM Sun Feb 18, 2007 03:34 AM There are two programs in Beijing that offer LLMs in English. Beijing University Tsinghua University BeiDa's is 2 years and Tsinghua's is 1. But before you choose the shorter one, be advised that the Ministry of Education requires that all LLM programs be two years long, therefore, there is a strong question regarding Tsinghua's program's credibility. However, it may be accredited, I'm not sure. Do not rely on my opinion. I would also have to respectfully disagree with Zoticogrillo. What you say is true in the past. That is no longer the case. Firms are on the search for new, young attorneys with a handle on Chinese law and Chinese culture. Obviously, being fluent is excellent, but being proficient will also be good enough. Firms have changed their position b/c China is growing and outbound Chinese deals are up. Therefore, a lot of U.S. firms in U.S. offices that are now finding they are in need of young attorneys who can both handle domestic transactional practice and also be of service when the firm lands a Chinese client looking to do an outbound deal. As for working in China, the firms are growing their China offices faster than they can stock them. Therefore, what you say about having to have worked 5-10 yrs in a large international firm is no longer the case. The firms want first year, second year, etc. associates to do due diligence, to keep up with the grind work, and also to be able to handle themselves around Chinese clients. Before, when the satellite offices were 3-4 attorneys, yes, you need to be partner status with 10 years of transactional under your belt. But, now the firms are 15+ and growing and they need junior associates with Chinese culture/language skills because there is just so much work to be done. For example, OMM is expanding its China offices and K&E opened a new China office. And not just work in China, but, as I mentioned, work in the U.S. b/c of the outbound deals. Firms are now willing to train you in transactional work b/c you will not only be a great transactional attorney, you'll be a great one who knows Chinese and Chinese law. However, the same rules apply even if you have an LLM in Chinese law for these BigLaw firms. You still need to be from a top law school (meaning top 25) and top of your class (meaning 10-25%, or at the very least top third + journal experience--probably law review). You need to demonstrate that you can handle all the work they throw at you and that means domestic transactional work and Chinese transactional work. If you don't have the "pedigree" they will doubt that you can handle the basic transactional work regardless of your added bells/whistles of Chinese culture/language skills. I highly recommend getting your LLM in Chinese law. You will learn so much about the ins and outs of Chinese law, business wo/men, culture, etc. If you want to decide between Tsinghua and BeiDa, I suggest you do some research on the schools (although if you ask me, people in China and in the U.S. BeiDa's name recognition for law far surpasses Tsinghua's). [Edited by enemykombatant on 22 Feb 2007]
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tomwang010 Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 4	China LLM Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:30 PM Hello, I am a law school graduate from Montreal (Canada) and I am interested in doing the LL.M. program in Chinese Law at Tsinghua University in Beijing next year. Is there anyone who has already done the program or is currently doing it? I would like to know how it is? How are the classes? Is it well organized? Is it worth the money? Is it possible to learn mandarin at the same time? How is the class spirit? Thank you in advance! Henri I think it depends on what goal do you wanna achieve. Learning Mandarin at Tsinghua is a piece of cake. Maybe, many local Chinese students wanna learn English or French from you at the same time. But pls never assume the quality of the Tsinghua LLM based on your Quebec legal education experience. The Mainland China LLM programs are less established than those in H.K.
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tomwang010 Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 4	China LLM Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:48 PM There are two programs in Beijing that offer LLMs in English. Beijing University Tsinghua University BeiDa's is 2 years and Tsinghua's is 1. But before you choose the shorter one, be advised that the Ministry of Education requires that all LLM programs be two years long, therefore, there is a strong question regarding Tsinghua's program's credibility. However, it may be accredited, I'm not sure. Do not rely on my opinion. I would also have to respectfully disagree with Zoticogrillo. What you say is true in the past. That is no longer the case. Firms are on the search for new, young attorneys with a handle on Chinese law and Chinese culture. Obviously, being fluent is excellent, but being proficient will also be good enough. Firms have changed their position b/c China is growing and outbound Chinese deals are up. Therefore, a lot of U.S. firms in U.S. offices that are now finding they are in need of young attorneys who can both handle domestic transactional practice and also be of service when the firm lands a Chinese client looking to do an outbound deal. As for working in China, the firms are growing their China offices faster than they can stock them. Therefore, what you say about having to have worked 5-10 yrs in a large international firm is no longer the case. The firms want first year, second year, etc. associates to do due diligence, to keep up with the grind work, and also to be able to handle themselves around Chinese clients. Before, when the satellite offices were 3-4 attorneys, yes, you need to be partner status with 10 years of transactional under your belt. But, now the firms are 15+ and growing and they need junior associates with Chinese culture/language skills because there is just so much work to be done. For example, OMM is expanding its China offices and K&E opened a new China office. And not just work in China, but, as I mentioned, work in the U.S. b/c of the outbound deals. Firms are now willing to train you in transactional work b/c you will not only be a great transactional attorney, you'll be a great one who knows Chinese and Chinese law. However, the same rules apply even if you have an LLM in Chinese law for these BigLaw firms. You still need to be from a top law school (meaning top 25) and top of your class (meaning 10-25%, or at the very least top third + journal experience--probably law review). You need to demonstrate that you can handle all the work they throw at you and that means domestic transactional work and Chinese transactional work. If you don't have the "pedigree" they will doubt that you can handle the basic transactional work regardless of your added bells/whistles of Chinese culture/language skills. I highly recommend getting your LLM in Chinese law. You will learn so much about the ins and outs of Chinese law, business wo/men, culture, etc. If you want to decide between Tsinghua and BeiDa, I suggest you do some research on the schools (although if you ask me, people in China and in the U.S. BeiDa's name recognition for law far surpasses Tsinghua's). I think you're not wrong. But on the outound side, a big issue is the Chinese preference of flat fee structure for its overseas transactions and on the inbound side, a big issue is that the more you understand Chinese law the more frustrated you could be when acting for foreign clients doing business in China. [Edited by tomwang010 on 26 Feb 2007]
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enemykombatant Joined: 17 Feb 2007 Posts: 15	China LLM Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:09 AM well, chinese companies' resistance to paying high fees are well known. However, they still need attorneys and they're acknowledging that slowly. I've spoken with several large firms in the U.S. who have Chinese clients and they've affirmed this notion. I wouldn't be surprised if the fees Chinese clients are willing to pay start increasing as the business starts increasing. Also, if you work for a BigLaw firm, your salary is going to be the same whether you have Chinese clients or U.S. clients. Your statement that the more you understand Chines law, the more frustrated you could be when acting for foreign clients doing business in China is an age old issue. Do you counsel your client regarding guanxi? do you tell them what the statutory laws state? do you tell them about the trade custom? all of these are problems that attorneys are encountering in China. If there is a law that says you can only build your building 10 stories high but all the buildings are 15 stories high and the officials haven't stopped anyone--how do you counsel your client? These are definitely concrete issues, but as far as getting a job--I think an LLM from mainland China is going to be worth its weight in gold--especially when you make the contacts you do who can tell you the ins and outs of the workings of chinese law. An outside attorney is going to be at a great disadvantage. [Edited by enemykombatant on 27 Feb 2007]
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tomwang010 Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 4	China LLM Tue Feb 27, 2007 02:54 AM Thanks for these very interesting comments! But if I say that more and more US-trained Chinese lawyers (or dual qualified lawyers) will be able to take over and handle overseas transactions for Chinese companies (sometimes in conjunction with small/medium local firms in the particular jurisdictions), on a low flat fee basis, do you believe it or not? And if I say that many insiders really understand the ins and outs of the workings of Chinese law do not reside in mainland China, do you believe it or not? I only advise my clients how to get their deals through and how to achieve their commerical objectives in China, of course on a concrete project basis. They all know the importance of guanxi and the limitations of blackletter laws in China. [Edited by tomwang010 on 27 Feb 2007]
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